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Civil Engineering - We need to talk about money

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Comments

  • #2


    AAAAAAAAA wrote: »
    Sounds on the low end, considering DIT put out 10-15 bachelors of civil engineering last year, not even counting the level 7 graduates (many of whom went into the level 8 course). My estimate would be around 100-150, personally.

    Still though, what we are being told by both employers and colleges does not match what is being said on this board. We are hearing about a major shortfall in the number of engineering graduates in Ireland, yet the salaries for graduate civil engineers are absolutely pathetic.

    The highest graduate civil engineering salary I've heard of is about 27k +perks, and that's because its a multidisciplinary engineering role that's primarily aimed for mechanical and electrical engineers. I don't think I've heard a pure civil position that's cracked 25k, for myself or my friends. Pathetic.

    The result of this has been that many of us have ended up in finance, management, accounting, IT - and have ended up with significantly better numbers despite not having the "correct" degree.

    I was told 30 from trinity last year but who knows.

    Graduates arent in demand. Its the lads with 4-6 years experience. The lads who have worked since graduation in 2007/2008 and beyond


  • #2


    godtabh wrote: »
    I was told 30 from trinity last year but who knows.

    Graduates arent in demand. Its the lads with 4-6 years experience. The lads who have worked since graduation in 2007/2008 and beyond

    There may be a demand - but even at the "ridiculous" €45k for 4 years experience, it doesn't come close to our counterparts in other industries.


  • #2


    onrail wrote: »
    There may be a demand - but even at the "ridiculous" €45k for 4 years experience, it doesn't come close to our counterparts in other industries.

    Yep, sure a law grad at 21 years of age can expect to earn circa 42k with one of the big firms. Crazy really.


  • #2


    Just got forwarded this link about a job...shocking stuff...frankly insulting to my profession...

    http://tinyurl.com/hdgyd9x

    Am a Chartered Engineer with 15 years experience just to clarify my position on this.


  • #2


    camroc76 wrote: »
    Just got forwarded this link about a job...shocking stuff...frankly insulting to my profession...

    http://tinyurl.com/hdgyd9x

    Am a Chartered Engineer with 15 years experience just to clarify my position on this.

    That is shocking


  • #2


    camroc76 wrote: »
    Just got forwarded this link about a job...shocking stuff...frankly insulting to my profession...

    Am a Chartered Engineer with 15 years experience just to clarify my position on this.

    Absolutely ridiculous. We see Luas drivers, nurses, electricians going on strike for less.

    To be honest, if we had any sense or bravery we'd be away to do something else - the problem I see with most colleagues is that they get laden down with financial commitments before being able to jump.

    Unless they have a clear love and genuine enthusiasm for the industry, I certainly wouldn't advise any school or University student to get into Civil Engineering.


  • #2


    Civils is a tough industry to be in and youve got to be tough to make it TBH and margins are low too its certainly not the industry of 2007. Lots of people had to emigrate as there were no jobs with gov spending being cut. It's not comparable to solicitors or any other profession. pay rises come with expertise and taking on more responsibility and pressure. if theres work you have a job if not youll get your notice......I know someone in civils earning 6 figures with car phone etc but you know what you'll do for that- Youll work huge hours (8am to 7pm) be on call outside of these hours. Work later whenever needed and catch up on stuff at weekends every weekend. Over to UK sites at the drop of a hat and generally the pressure is unrelenting...... oh and that is with 15 years experience behind them. But if you're after more money and the above doesn't sound attractive you're gonna have to think about stepping out of that world. If you're an engineer there are plenty of related industries you can move to so look around those.


  • #2


    SteadyNed wrote: »
    Absolutely ridiculous. We see Luas drivers, nurses, electricians going on strike for less.

    To be honest, if we had any sense or bravery we'd be away to do something else - the problem I see with most colleagues is that they get laden down with financial commitments before being able to jump.

    Unless they have a clear love and genuine enthusiasm for the industry, I certainly wouldn't advise any school or University student to get into Civil Engineering.

    I can honestly state I didn't get into engineering with money as being the first thought in my mind, I love engineering, from designing structural steel to inspecting homes, I enjoy it.

    But when compared to other countries, what annoys me is the lack of respect we get for what i believe is a very important profession. Engineers Ireland are pretty much impotent when it comes down to it, they didn't even voice concern when our previous government noted we were immune to the recession, from memory we got an email from the Director noting it would be done through "different channels"....it was a shameful stance to take.

    We are our own worst enemy, that job advertisement is point in case, that company was born via the demise of OCSC...the 1%'ers, the golden boys of Irish engineering at one point.

    Engineers Ireland despite being our "representative body" seems to have no problem facilitating the race to the bottom.


  • #2


    SteadyNed wrote: »
    Absolutely ridiculous. We see Luas drivers, nurses, electricians going on strike for less.

    Thats shocking all right.
    €55k a year if you can tell the accelerate and brake toggles apart on a train apparently.


  • #2


    camroc76 wrote: »
    Engineers Ireland despite being our "representative body" seems to have no problem facilitating the race to the bottom.

    Anyone know what Salaries are like at Engineers Ireland? Another IFA I wonder?

    ....at least the IFA got results for its members!


  • #2


    That is crazy, there are graduate positions advertised at £30,000 here in the UK.


  • #2


    onrail wrote: »
    Anyone know what Salaries are like at Engineers Ireland? Another IFA I wonder?

    ....at least the IFA got results for its members!

    Google the current DG and you will find her old salary online. You can extrapolate from that for her current salary (plus a fully expensed car!)


  • #2


    godtabh wrote: »
    Google the current DG and you will find her old salary online. You can extrapolate from that for her current salary (plus a fully expensed car!)

    It's probably reasonable to suggest that she has taken a reasonable bump up in salary since the Medical Council too.

    Incredible.


  • #2


    onrail wrote: »
    It's probably reasonable to suggest that she has taken a reasonable bump up in salary since the Medical Council too.

    Incredible.

    That was my point!


  • #2


    I had to remind myself and found this

    Ms Caroline Spillane is the Chief Executive Officer of the Medical Council. Ms Spillane received
    a salary of €136,276 in 2014 covering the period from 1 January 2014 to the 31 December
    2014. The gross salary paid includes an adjustment in line with requirements specified under
    the Haddington Road Agreement. The pension entitlements of the Chief Executive Officer do
    not extend beyond the pension entitlements in the public sector defined benefit superannuation
    scheme.


  • #2


    I had to remind myself and found this

    Ms Caroline Spillane is the Chief Executive Officer of the Medical Council. Ms Spillane received
    a salary of €136,276 in 2014 covering the period from 1 January 2014 to the 31 December
    2014. The gross salary paid includes an adjustment in line with requirements specified under
    the Haddington Road Agreement. The pension entitlements of the Chief Executive Officer do
    not extend beyond the pension entitlements in the public sector defined benefit superannuation
    scheme.


  • #2


    So... after all this talk of supply-demand in Engineering/Construction Grads, we are now poised for a 'substantial defecit' in Civil Engineering Graduates

    Few questions:

    1. Is there actually a shortage, or is this simply a ploy by EI to get into the news
    2. If there is indeed a shortage, what are the implications? Will it drive up graduate salaries or prompt recruitment from elsewhere?
    3. Will it have any implications for the industry as a whole (i.e. drive up fees and/or salaries)?

    Anyone have any ideas?


  • #2


    onrail wrote: »
    So... after all this talk of supply-demand in Engineering/Construction Grads, we are now poised for a 'substantial defecit' in Civil Engineering Graduates

    Few questions:

    1. Is there actually a shortage, or is this simply a ploy by EI to get into the news
    2. If there is indeed a shortage, what are the implications? Will it drive up graduate salaries or prompt recruitment from elsewhere?
    3. Will it have any implications for the industry as a whole (i.e. drive up fees and/or salaries)?

    Anyone have any ideas?

    1. I'm about to graduate an ME in structures from UCD, there is a real shortage of graduates according to any company that has come into us (10 in our class graduating)
    2. Salaries seem to range from 23-28 grand for consultancies, UK salaries significantly higher (30k Sterling )
    3. No idea, I'd like to think a shortage of engineers would lead to an increase in fees and as such salaries?


  • #2


    domrush wrote: »
    1. I'm about to graduate an ME in structures from UCD, there is a real shortage of graduates according to any company that has come into us (10 in our class graduating)
    2. Salaries seem to range from 23-28 grand for consultancies, UK salaries significantly higher (30k Sterling )
    3. No idea, I'd like to think a shortage of engineers would lead to an increase in fees and as such salaries?

    I've heard from my a few company directors that there is a real shortage alright; so say the ACEI as well (http://www.acei.ie/news/independent-reports-critical-risk-to-recovery-as-students-shun-construction and http://www.acei.ie/news/independent-reports-lack-of-engineering-and-surveyor-grads-a-critical-concern-for-ireland-s-future).

    23k is shocking. I know one large multinational/disciplinary consultancy offers that to grads but I don't know how someone could live in Dublin on that wage.

    Firms are hiring based on the last years turnover so a lot of companies don't have the finances to be offering what supply/demand may dictate so there isn't quite an instant correlation.

    One thing I would say is that there is a lot of movement in the sector and engineers are very busy. I would recommend grads make sure they can get in somewhere that the senior engineers will have the time to mentor you and start you on the proper development path for career development and chartership.


  • #2


    I've heard Arup are offering grads €27.5k this year.


  • #2


    Open to correction here but I recall from 2008/just pre-crash, ESBI offering €36k to grads in 2008, Some of the bigger consultancies were offering €30-33k.


  • #2


    onrail wrote: »
    Open to correction here but I recall from 2008/just pre-crash, ESBI offering €36k to grads in 2008, Some of the bigger consultancies were offering €30-33k.

    ESBI at €33k plus bonuses.
    Bonus for Arup pushes it to 29.5k.

    Not sure if its right to name the firms offering the lower end of the scale.

    Contractors offering much larger salaries than consultancies, at the same time hours would be far longer. As a soon-to-be graduate I'd be interested in hearing whether any experienced civil/structural consultants regret not going down the contractor route, and vice versa.


  • #2


    domrush wrote: »
    ESBI at €33k plus bonuses.
    Bonus for Arup pushes it to 29.5k.

    Not sure if its right to name the firms offering the lower end of the scale.

    Contractors offering much larger salaries than consultancies, at the same time hours would be far longer. As a soon-to-be graduate I'd be interested in hearing whether any experienced civil/structural consultants regret not going down the contractor route, and vice versa.

    Many would regret going down the engineering route!


  • #2


    domrush wrote: »
    ESBI at €33k plus bonuses.
    Bonus for Arup pushes it to 29.5k.

    Not sure if its right to name the firms offering the lower end of the scale.

    Contractors offering much larger salaries than consultancies, at the same time hours would be far longer. As a soon-to-be graduate I'd be interested in hearing whether any experienced civil/structural consultants regret not going down the contractor route, and vice versa.

    Despite the lower pay, I have no regrets going down the consultancy route (if given a choice of the two). Working hours, stress and a lack of security in working location makes contracting really really tough going - but it does suit certain types of people.

    As above - many regret going down the engineering route full-stop. Even with current demand for grads, salaries are much higher almost anywhere else long term.

    If money is a key consideration, I would head down the business route (Mgmt Consultancy or accounting - do a 1 year Masters if necessary); if work-life balance dictates, I would advise teaching.


  • #2


    onrail wrote: »
    Despite the lower pay, I have no regrets going down the consultancy route (if given a choice of the two). Working hours, stress and a lack of security in working location makes contracting really really tough going - but it does suit certain types of people.

    As above - many regret going down the engineering route full-stop. Even with current demand for grads, salaries are much higher almost anywhere else long term.

    If money is a key consideration, I would head down the business route (Mgmt Consultancy or accounting - do a 1 year Masters if necessary); if work-life balance dictates, I would advise teaching.

    To be honest I enjoy the work, and after interning for 9 months and completing 5 years of study (Masters) I feel I've put too much in o back out at this stage.

    Have salaries always been so poor? Surely before the crash civil/structs earned a decent wage near the other professions ?


  • #2


    domrush wrote: »
    To be honest I enjoy the work, and after interning for 9 months and completing 5 years of study (Masters) I feel I've put too much in o back out at this stage.

    Have salaries always been so poor? Surely before the crash civil/structs earned a decent wage near the other professions ?

    Understandable - the only people I would encourage to enter the profession are those who have a true love of the subject and who enjoy the work. They will be excellent engineers and progress quickly through the ranks.

    Even after 5-6 years of experience, myself and many others are considering trying to move away from the sector and regret not doing so sooner - so I wouldn't let the idea that you've gone 'too far' get in the way.

    There are too many who entered a Civil Eng college course with an ill-founded notion that the massive profits of the house-building sector (post-crash) were somehow comparable with Civil Eng Salaries. While salaries did rise at the time, in truth it was/is always the accountants/solicitors who made the most. Given the current demand for grads, what you'll probably find is that your salary is going to be greater than counterparts in accountancy/law for 2-4 years. Once they fully qualify, their € will take off, while yours will flatline to a certain extent.

    In truth, the salaries aren't terrible (probably comparable with Nurses/teachers without the added perks they get) but given our skills, attributes and the demands of the job they should be an awful lot better.


  • #2


    While I suppose I don't ever expect to earn the same as doctors/lawyers etc (whether or not engineers deserve it is another story), surely directors or others with 20+ years exp in large consultancies can expect to earn over 70k a year?


  • #2


    onrail wrote: »
    Understandable - the only people I would encourage to enter the profession are those who have a true love of the subject and who enjoy the work. They will be excellent engineers and progress quickly through the ranks.

    Even after 5-6 years of experience, myself and many others are considering trying to move away from the sector and regret not doing so sooner - so I wouldn't let the idea that you've gone 'too far' get in the way.

    There are too many who entered a Civil Eng college course with an ill-founded notion that the massive profits of the house-building sector (post-crash) were somehow comparable with Civil Eng Salaries. While salaries did rise at the time, in truth it was/is always the accountants/solicitors who made the most. Given the current demand for grads, what you'll probably find is that your salary is going to be greater than counterparts in accountancy/law for 2-4 years. Once they fully qualify, their € will take off, while yours will flatline to a certain extent.

    In truth, the salaries aren't terrible (probably comparable with Nurses/teachers without the added perks they get) but given our skills, attributes and the demands of the job they should be an awful lot better.

    What other industries would you consider moving to out of interest?


  • #2


    domrush wrote: »
    While I suppose I don't ever expect to earn the same as doctors/lawyers etc (whether or not engineers deserve it is another story), surely directors or others with 20+ years exp in large consultancies can expect to earn over 70k a year?

    Yep - a director should be somewhere in the 70k to 85k region, but Chartered Accountants will be earning similar money to that in less than 10 years.

    At the minute, have one colleague considering secondary teaching, two former classmates training for primary teaching. A few others enrolling in MBAs to try enter Banking/Finance.

    I'm looking into Management Consulting and what might be required for entry - ideally would like to avoid the expense of a masters but it may be necessary.


  • #2


    godtabh wrote: »
    Many would regret going down the engineering route!

    I know the feeling. . . .


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