Nelson's Pillar

whisky_galore · 07-03-2016 10:11PM

BoatMad wrote: »

you mean liberty house , Home of SIPTU. hey republicans , we have a new target ......only kidding, only kidding

I had Wood Quay in mind...I'm sure a long list of fugly buildings and structures can be made.

The flying mouse · 07-03-2016 10:13PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

If you think Nelson was a British imperialist stooge, you really should want to keep the statue there to remind people - this is what we fought against in 1916.

If you think Nelson was a European hero who saved (not just) Ireland from Bonapartism, you really should want to keep the statue there to remind people of his greatness.

Or maybe we should have replaced it with a statue to the huge numbers of unknown Irish soldier who took the Queen's shillings, and suffered all the glories and horrors, controversies and honours, that brings.

There is already a huge memorial garden in Island bridge which commemorates all the Irish soldiers who died in all wars.Its really lovely and well maintained,a lot more people should go visit it.

BoatMad · 07-03-2016 10:14PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I have respect for people whatever their views but in this thread we've seen people saying that "British rule" trumps happiness or quality of life of the people.

Some serious serious nuts in this thread. Just to say I live in England and NEVER hear nuts like this. A lot actually realise colonialism wasn't a great thing worldwide.

Don't let these one line wonders convince you that British people are anything as mentally challenged as them.

you may say that , but there are statues to Nelson the length an breath of the UK. He was clearly recognised as having saved the UK (and by extension Ireland ) from the effects of French and Spanish naval power, ( not to mention his successes in Copenhagen too). He established British Naval power until its demise by the first world war.

He was commemorated in ireland because he was important at he the time to the people at the time . You cannot take later day history and blame it on a statute

Nodin · 07-03-2016 10:14PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

I had Wood Quay in mind...I'm sure a long list of fugly buildings and structures can be made.

Well that certainly is/was/always will be a dire kip and the product of a shower of arseholes. Still doesn't justify having bollocky bill left over O'Connell street though.

BoatMad · 07-03-2016 10:15PM

The flying mouse wrote: »

There is already a huge memorial garden in Island bridge which commemorates all the Irish soldiers who died in all wars.Its really lovely and well maintained,a lot more people should go visit it.

yes I remember when it was a shambles , its one of the better things we did recently

BoatMad · 07-03-2016 10:15PM

Nodin wrote: »

Well that certainly is/was/always will be a dire kip and the product of a shower of arseholes. Still doesn't justify having bollocky bill left over O'Connell street though.

its a statute, not a man

whisky_galore · 07-03-2016 10:24PM

Nodin wrote: »

Well that certainly is/was/always will be a dire kip and the product of a shower of arseholes. Still doesn't justify having bollocky bill left over O'Connell street though.

He isn't there anymore. He's been 'taken care of'.

Sure why don't you campaign to purge every street sign and placename of Saxon influence? Get out the angle grinder and erase the royal cipher from every pre '22 postbox? Why stop there...pull down the Wellington Monument, hack off any imperialist fancy bits on the GPO/Leinster House/Four Courts/Custom House...?

Fratton Fred · 07-03-2016 10:30PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I have respect for people whatever their views but in this thread we've seen people saying that "British rule" trumps happiness or quality of life of the people.

Some serious serious nuts in this thread. Just to say I live in England and NEVER hear nuts like this. A lot actually realise colonialism wasn't a great thing worldwide.

Don't let these one line wonders convince you that British people are anything as mentally challenged as them.

Most people look at the past, shrug and say life is much better now.

Some people are obsessed with it though and use historical events to justify their own beliefs/bigotry. It's like a needy girl in Facebook constantly seeking attention.

Nodin · 07-03-2016 10:39PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Most people look at the past, shrug and say life is much better now.

Some people are obsessed with it though and use historical events to justify their own beliefs/bigotry. It's like a needy girl in Facebook constantly seeking attention.

My belief, oft expressed, that discrimination and hate based on race, religion and so on are wrong? Yes indeed I do justify my beliefs on that via history, the notion being that we don't repeat it.

Still haven't answered the question I see.

SeanW · 07-03-2016 11:05PM

Maybe I'm missing something blindingly obvious, but I just looked up some historical pics of the Pillar before its destruction, and it seems that rather than being a statue of a colonial scumbag with a pillar, it seems like it was a massive pillar with a statue of a colonial scumbag on top.

Obvious question: would it not objectively made more sense to take the colonial scumbag off and replace the statue with something else? Was there no-one back in '66 for whom the structure could have been modified/rededicated? Or, if that would have been too expensive, simply knock the statue off the thing and rename it the Dublin Pillar or the O'Connell St. Pillar etc?

By all accounts, the Pillar portion of the structure was quite useful. Reviewing the pics, destroying it entirely smacked of Philistinism.

maryishere · 07-03-2016 11:06PM

BoatMad wrote: »

you may say that , but there are statues to Nelson the length an breath of the UK. He was clearly recognised as having saved the UK (and by extension Ireland ) from the effects of French and Spanish naval power, ( not to mention his successes in Copenhagen too).

Not only are there statues to Nelson the length and breath of the UK, there are some in the Caribbean and Canada too, among other places. Its ironic that most if not all Republicans would stand up for the rights of minorities - such as Homosexuals, Travellers (gyspies), the Disabled and Jews - to live, but if it was not for the Royal Navy only about 25 years before the statue was blown up, then the Nazis would have succeeded in invading these islands in Operation Sea Lion. Rabid Republicans may not realise it, but the Nazis were none too friendly towards the Disabled, Gays, Gyspies and Jews. Hundreds of thousands of fit civilians were also used as slave labourers by the Nazis in their occupied countries.

Maybe if someone was to replace Nelson on top of the pillar in 1966, it should have been "the unknown volunteer"...seeing as over the centuries probably millions of Irish people volunteered to defend these islands from continental aggression (206,000 Irishmen volunteered to wear B.A uniforms to defend these islands from the Germans in WW1 alone).

BoatMad · 07-03-2016 11:09PM

Nodin wrote: »

My belief, oft expressed, that discrimination and hate based on race, religion and so on are wrong? Yes indeed I do justify my beliefs on that via history, the notion being that we don't repeat it.

Still haven't answered the question I see.

Sadly History shows that we can always justify discrimination based on anything we dream up of , if the events are seemed to justify it . The balkans shows that merely because you were once discriminated against, does not stop you from becoming the discriminator

ireland has demonstrated that in recent history with the Jews etc

LordSutch · 07-03-2016 11:09PM

The removal (and replacement) of Lord Nelson atop the pillar was mentioned before in this thread, but even that idea was not enough for the uber Republican mindset who like the Taliban would just prefer to blow it up!

Muck savages.

maryishere · 07-03-2016 11:10PM

Nodin wrote: »

My belief, oft expressed, that discrimination and hate based on race, religion and so on are wrong?

Correct. Nelson was respected by the 400 Dubliners who fought with him, and they found from Nelson no discrimination or hate based on race, religion and so on. Arguably the discrimination and hate based on race, religion and so on came from those who blew up the pillar.

BoatMad · 07-03-2016 11:12PM

maryishere wrote: »

Not only are there statues to Nelson the length and breath of the UK, there are some in the Caribbean and Canada too, among other places. Its ironic that most if not all Republicans would stand up for the rights of minorities - such as Homosexuals, Travellers (gyspies), the Disabled and Jews - to live, but if it was not for the Royal Navy only about 25 years before the statue was blown up, then the Nazis would have succeeded in invading these islands in Operation Sea Lion. Rabid Republicans may not realise it, but the Nazis were none too friendly towards the Disabled, Gays, Gyspies and Jews. Hundreds of thousands of fit civilians were also used as slave labourers by the Nazis in their occupied countries. Maybe if someone was to replace Nelson on top of the pillar in 1966, it should have been "the unknown volunteer"...seeing as over the centuries probably millions of Irish people volunteered to defend these islands from continental aggression (206,000 Irishmen volunteered to wear B.A uniforms to defend these islands from the Germans in WW1 alone).

You are confused, a large part of that "rapid Republican " movement wanted the Nazis to succeed and conquer Britian and invade Ireland and actively coluded with them to do so , in fact members of the Dail and ministers were openly Nazi sympathises, like Frank Aiken , especially at the outset of WW2.

in reality they IRA should have out Goebells up in place of Nelson , if they were being honest

any "Republicans" would stand up for the rights of minorities, only if it suite them to do so , the "cause" is more important

Sweetemotion · 07-03-2016 11:19PM

BoatMad wrote: »

You are confused, a large part of that "rapid Republican " movement wanted the Nazis to succeed and conquer Britian and invade Ireland and actively coluded with them to do so , in fact members of the Dail and ministers were openly Nazi sympathises, like Frank Aiken , especially at the outset of WW2.

in reality they IRA should have out Goebells up in place of Nelson , if they were being honest

any "Republicans" would stand up for the rights of minorities, only if it suite them to do so , the "cause" is more important

What about the loyalists putting up Israeli flags while supporting neo Nazis :eek:

BoatMad · 07-03-2016 11:20PM

Sweetemotion wrote: »

What about the loyalists putting up Israeli flags while supporting neo Nazis :eek:

sure, that justifies everything :rolleyes:

Sweetemotion · 07-03-2016 11:24PM

BoatMad wrote: »

sure, that justifies everything :rolleyes:

Sure didn't the Queen mother herself once send Hitler a birthday card :eek:

BoatMad · 07-03-2016 11:26PM

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Sure didn't the Queen mother herself once send Hitler a birthday card :eek:

and Time Life pictured in on the coverage of its Magazine as a great new leader in germany , america loved him knocking back the Bolshevicks in germany

buried · 07-03-2016 11:30PM

BoatMad wrote: »

and Time Life pictured in on the coverage of its Magazine as a great new leader in germany , america loved him knocking back the Bolshevicks in germany

They did more than just picture him. He was their "man of the year" for 1938

Fratton Fred · 07-03-2016 11:37PM

Nodin wrote: »

Still haven't answered the question I see.

Sigh.

What question was that?

Junkyard Tom · 07-03-2016 11:39PM

You'd be surprised how many 'civilised' countries were well into the ol' eugenics that the Nazis used to justify slave labour and concentration camps. It quickly went out of fashion after WWII.

At its peak of popularity, eugenics was supported by a wide variety of prominent people, including Winston Churchill, Margaret Sanger, Marie Stopes, H. G. Wells, Theodore Roosevelt, Herbert Hoover, George Bernard Shaw, John Maynard Keynes

In 1909 the Anglican clergymen William Inge and James Peile both wrote for the British Eugenics Education Society. Inge was an invited speaker at the 1921 International Eugenics Conference, which was also endorsed by the Roman Catholic Archbishop of New York Patrick Joseph Hayes.

In 1925 Adolf Hitler praised and incorporated eugenic ideas in Mein Kampf and emulated eugenic legislation for the sterilization of "defectives" that had been pioneered in the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

storker · 07-03-2016 11:51PM

SeanW wrote: »

By all accounts, the Pillar portion of the structure was quite useful. Reviewing the pics, destroying it entirely smacked of Philistinism.

Prepare yourself for accusations of being a forelock-tugger and West Brit...

BoatMad · 07-03-2016 11:52PM

storker wrote: »

Prepare yourself for accusations of being a forelock-tugger and West Brit...

how can you forelock tug to a statue of a man long dead, ???

Yamanoto · 07-03-2016 11:53PM

It's an odd slice of irony that the most attacked statue in Dublin is that of Irish republican, Sean Russell, in Fairview park.

https://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2009/08/02/sean-russell-statue-watch/

maryishere · 07-03-2016 11:55PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You'd be surprised how many 'civilised' countries were well into the ol' eugenics that the Nazis used to justify slave labour and concentration camps. It quickly went out of fashion after WWII.

Selective quotation. The "civilised countries" you infer were not "well into it", and indeed these countries fought against the Axis countries ( Germany, Italy, Japan etc ) in WW2.

If you ever want to see how Homosexuals, Travellers (gyspies), the Disabled and Jews, - including from neutral countries the Nazis invaded - go to visit many of the places in Europe where they were guests of the Nazis.
Several countries suffered invasion in spite of their efforts to be neutral. These included Nazi Germany's invasion of Denmark and Norway on 9 April 1940—then Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg on 10 May 1940.

The British are actually a generally fair and tolerant race.

storker · 08-03-2016 12:04AM

BoatMad wrote: »

how can you forelock tug to a statue of a man long dead, ???

You have to climb up on top of the pillar first so he can see you.

Junkyard Tom · 08-03-2016 12:06AM

maryishere wrote: »

The "civilised countries" you infer were not "well into it", and indeed these countries fought against the Axis countries ( Germany, Italy, Japan etc ) in WW2.

Not to put an end to eugenics sweetie.

BoatMad · 08-03-2016 12:14AM

recylingbin wrote: »

Why was it there in the first place? Did nelson have any association with Ireland?

he saved it from domination by the french and Spanish and the nice catholic merchants thought he was a hero

buried · 08-03-2016 12:14AM

maryishere wrote: »

Not only are there statues to Nelson the length and breath of the UK, there are some in the Caribbean and Canada too, among other places. Its ironic that most if not all Republicans would stand up for the rights of minorities - such as Homosexuals, Travellers (gyspies), the Disabled and Jews - to live, but if it was not for the Royal Navy only about 25 years before the statue was blown up, then the Nazis would have succeeded in invading these islands in Operation Sea Lion. Rabid Republicans may not realise it, but the Nazis were none too friendly towards the Disabled, Gays, Gyspies and Jews. Hundreds of thousands of fit civilians were also used as slave labourers by the Nazis in their occupied countries.

Maybe if someone was to replace Nelson on top of the pillar in 1966, it should have been "the unknown volunteer"...seeing as over the centuries probably millions of Irish people volunteered to defend these islands from continental aggression (206,000 Irishmen volunteered to wear B.A uniforms to defend these islands from the Germans in WW1 alone).

lol Great Britain, the "defenders of the disabled, homosexuals, gypsies and jews" Standards have slipped a good bit so, seeing how Britain is the biggest exporter of arms and weapons to Saudi Arabia the "decapitators of the disabled, homosexuals, gypsies, jews, democracy campaigners, women and anybody else they don't like".

Bit pointless waging a war "defending" innocent people from fascists, then to literally help and allow another shower of fascist trash to kill and torture them elsewhere ain't it?

Nelson's Pillar

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