Nelson's Pillar

gaius c · 07-03-2016 11:51AM

colossus-x wrote: »

The spire is dire.

Edit: Just knock it down and leave it empty, see how it goes. Do we need to have some tall structure there?

We could do with more apartments in the city centre.

Fratton Fred · 07-03-2016 02:05PM

Miniegg wrote: »

Hi Fred, first of all I see many different groupings as Irish (be they Catholic, Protestant, Unionist, Republican). That we all have differing views does not diminish the fact that we are all Irish, and share this island together.

During Irelands involvement in the British empire, the majority of Ireland's population were Catholic, a religion which was incompatible with the empire. Thus, the majority of Irish people felt the brunt of the Penal laws more than Scotland, for example, who had a Protestant majority.

My point is, if laws were enacted to decimate the rights of the vast majority of people living in Ireland, then Ireland was never truly integrated into the empire.

Do you think the vast majority of people, be they in Ireland, England or anywhere else in Europe had any rights anyway?

The ruling classes couldn't give a **** about the rights of the poor and the penal laws were never about them. They were designed to prove loyalty amongst the Earls and Lords.

Have a read.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius05/p5regnans.htm

Dyr · 07-03-2016 02:12PM

Are there any other british statues knocking around still that we could blow up for the centenary of the rising? Make a family day of it, fireworks, face-painting etc.

cajonlardo · 07-03-2016 02:29PM

Bambi wrote: »

Are there any other british statues knocking around still that we could blow up for the centenary of the rising? Make a family day of it, fireworks, face-painting etc.

There was is a monument in Collins Barracks. If I remember correctly it was a monument to Wellington, one of the British Generals anyway. It is out the back of the left Arch if your back is to the "Clock Block" on the square beside the old dining hall.

When the Irish troops took over the barracks they converted the monument into a urinal. It remained a urinal last time I saw it anyway. More useful than blowing stuff up.

gladrags · 07-03-2016 02:37PM

I wonder were Nelson's head got to.

It was on display in a small museum of Grafton st for decades.

It was about twice to size of a football.

But as far as I am aware,the museum closed.

Apparently on the night the pillar went up,students from TCD came across Nelsons head,lying in a street.

Dyr · 07-03-2016 02:39PM

gladrags wrote: »

I wonder were Nelson's head got to.

It was on display in a small museum of Grafton st for decades.

It was about twice to size of a football.

But as far as I am aware,the museum closed.

Apparently on the night the pillar went up,students from TCD came across Nelsons head,lying in a street.

think its in Pearse Street Library

buried · 07-03-2016 02:44PM

All the "historical statue monument lovers" up in this thread must have been shocked & horrified to see the Iraqi people tearing down and blowing up those statues of Saddam a decade ago. I'm sure they must have been all watching sky news roaring with despair at the telly- "WHAT ARE THEY DOING?? NOOOOOO, THATS PART OF YOUR HISTORY LADS....AHHH THEY'RE HITTIN HIM WITH THEIR SHOES NOW!! HOW CAN THIS BE HAPPENING????..............."

Yamanoto · 07-03-2016 03:12PM

buried wrote: »

All the "historical statue monument lovers" up in this thread must have been shocked & horrified to see the Iraqi people tearing down and blowing up those statues of Saddam a decade ago. I'm sure they must have been all watching sky news roaring with despair at the telly- "WHAT ARE THEY DOING?? NOOOOOO, THATS PART OF YOUR HISTORY LADS....AHHH THEY'RE HITTIN HIM WITH THEIR SHOES NOW!! HOW CAN THIS BE HAPPENING????..............."

Doubt the statue of Sadaam was held in any great affection by generations of Baghdadi's, so that's quite a difference to begin with.

If anything, the thinking behind Nelson's fall to earth had far more in common with the destruction of historical artifacts by both ISIL & the Taliban - it offends our sensibilities, therefore we're destroying it.

Dyr · 07-03-2016 03:18PM

Yamanoto wrote: »

Doubt the statue of Sadaam was held in any great affection by generations of Baghdadi's, so that's quite a difference to begin with.

They'd ****ing welcome him back with open arms and ticker tape parades now though

Miniegg · 07-03-2016 03:22PM

Fred, the laws were enacted to destroy the rights of people who practiced religions which the empire thought were incompatible, regardless of whether they were rich or poor.

The laws were classless, and affected wealthy Catholics, Prebyterians etc. as well as poor ones. Other empires in Europe are irrelevant - within the British empire, participants in certain religions (whether rich or poor) were legally allowed to purchase land, pass land to their children, join the military, attend school, and bear arms to protect themselves etc - and certain religions were not. So clearly there was a difference in rights amongst the poor within the same empire, contrary to what you say.

The fact that Britain thought it prudent to enact laws which stripped the rights of the vast majority of the people of Ireland surely indicates that Ireland cannot be seen as ever having been truly integrated with Britain.

Chips Lovell · 07-03-2016 04:44PM

Wellington Monument in the Phoenix Park. Let's blow that f**ker up. I'm sure there's a few "divilipers" who'd pay good money for the stone.

wakka12 · 07-03-2016 04:49PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Dublin is one of the worst cities in the world for poverty and child mortality???

Are you serious?

I think he meant during british occupation

josip · 07-03-2016 05:07PM

buried wrote: »

Why? Arthur Guinness was a brewer and a employer. He never blew up anybody with explosives.

He didn't need explosives. Blew the arse out of me this morning.

Nodin · 07-03-2016 06:12PM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Wellington Monument in the Phoenix Park. Let's blow that f**ker up. I'm sure there's a few "divilipers" who'd pay good money for the stone.

That's out of the way as is. A plaque affixed denoting its construction during the occupation would suffice.

Chips Lovell · 07-03-2016 06:19PM

The "occupation"?

Skylinehead · 07-03-2016 06:19PM

Nodin wrote: »

That's out of the way as is. A plaque affixed denoting its construction during the occupation would suffice.

Do we then attach plaques to the GPO, Leinster House etc? I don't see the point.

Chips Lovell · 07-03-2016 06:22PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

Do we then attach plaques to the GPO, Leinster House etc? I don't see the point.

Don't forget Áras an Uachtaráin.

This building was once an instrument of oppression

Skylinehead · 07-03-2016 06:25PM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Don't forget Áras an Uachtaráin.

I also want road markings.

"SLOW SCHOOL CROSSING"

"THIS ROAD WAS BUILT BY THE OPRESSORS"

diomed · 07-03-2016 06:33PM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

The "occupation"?

It is Sinn Féin speak.

It goes like this:
Irish history - "the occupation"
Ireland - "26 counties"
Northern Ireland - "6 counties"
citizen of Ireland - "west Brit"
criminal - "good Republican"
Dail Éireann - "Doyle Éireann"

diomed · 07-03-2016 06:39PM

Do not be a fool who's prejudiced
Because we're all written down on the same list
It's like that (what?) and that's the way it is
Huh!

You know it's like that, and that's the way it is
Because it's like that, and that's the way it is

07-03-2016 06:40PM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

The "occupation"?

Should we get you a dictionary?

07-03-2016 06:44PM

diomed wrote: »

Do not be a fool who's prejudiced
Because we're all written down on the same list
It's like that (what?) and that's the way it is
Huh!

You know it's like that, and that's the way it is
Because it's like that, and that's the way it is

Interesting, original rather than remix

cajonlardo · 07-03-2016 06:54PM

We are all clear that neither Sinn Fein nor the IRA were involved in that explosion, right?

Christle had long since gone his own way before he placed that charge.
I never understood how he took such reckless action. If you ever see the interview with the taxi driver who was driving by when it exploded, you will know what I mean. For absolutely no gain he placed innocent lives in danger. Yet Christle was apparently an intelligent and hard working and educated ( barisster and accountant) individual outside his political life. No matter what your allegiances, you have to admit the Raids on the barracks he was involved with up north in the '50's were impressive. Just never made sense to me that he risked his reputation along with civvy lives that night.

diomed · 07-03-2016 07:09PM

Sinn Féin speak

Shibboleth comes all the way from Hebrew, and originally meant a special word that helped you find out if someone was part of your group, almost like a secret handshake. It still has that sense of identifying someone as a member of a group.

Thus when the Ephraimites from the west invaded Gilead, and were defeated by the Gileadites under the leadership of Jephthah, and tried to escape by the "passages of the Jordan," the Gileadites seized the fords and would allow none to pass who could not pronounce "shibboleth" with a strong aspirate. This the fugitives were unable to do. They said "sibboleth," as the word was pronounced by the tribes on the west, and thus they were detected (Judg. 12:1-6 ). Forty-two thousand were thus detected, and

"Without reprieve, adjudged to death, For want of well-pronouncing shibboleth."

The flying mouse · 07-03-2016 07:19PM

Earlier documents reveal that Sean Lemass regarded the Pillar as an embarrassment. One can surmise that its destruction, on the eve of the fiftieth anniversary of the 1916 Rising, was regarded as a bonus. His inclination was to finish the job.

Nelson’s Pillar remained while others fell. George II’s fine equestrian statue in Stephen’s Green was detonated in May 1937 and while Queen Victoria’s less pleasing statue at Leinster House survived the Emergency, all 168 tons of it was removed to Kilmainham in 1948, before finding a home in Sydney in 1986. George III had long since been removed from City Hall.

(11 January 1960) to the Irish Times: ‘the destructive genius of the Irish people seems to be at work again…In the name of all that has elegance, splendour, beauty and dignity, leave the Pillar alone’.

Even then it was causing controversy, Most people wanted it gone but it had its important and influential supporters, ps there was no IRA involvement, some good reading in the link below/

https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwir2qu1lK_LAhWCuxQKHZpcBhUQFggrMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.historyireland.com%2F20th-century-contemporary-history%2Fnelsons-pillar%2F&usg=AFQjCNGQabLaxRbPBMvnmrMOQak7V-fUvg&sig2=qSBCt0Y7wTEVu3VErGfmuA

cajonlardo · 07-03-2016 07:25PM

The flying mouse wrote: »

One can surmise that its destruction, on the eve of the fiftieth anniversary of the 1916 Rising, was regarded as a bonus. His inclination was to finish the job.

Hence the the extremely short time frame for the Army engineers to finish the job. After the Civilian Firms turned down the job the 2nd Field Engineer Company were detailed to get the job done in one week. It was considered that if the ruin was standing as a backdrop to the Easter Military Parade it would be an embarrassment.

Nodin · 07-03-2016 07:33PM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

The "occupation"?

The British occupation. It may have been mentioned once or twice on the thread.

skylinehead wrote:

Do we then attach plaques to the GPO, Leinster House etc? I don't see the
point.

They aren't monuments, so why would we?

skylinehead wrote:

SLOW SCHOOL CROSSING"

"THIS ROAD WAS BUILT BY THE OPRESSORS"

Hillarious.

The difference between a utility and a triumphalist monument was teased out earlier in the thread, I believe.

diomed wrote:

It is Sinn Féin speak.

How would you describe the centuries long British rule of this country?

The Rape of Lucretia · 07-03-2016 07:37PM

Nodin wrote: »

How would you describe the centuries long British rule of this country?

The glory years, when the whole island was privileged to be part of the greatest nation on earth, ruling the waves, and at the heart of the Empire on which the sun never set.

(Then threw a strop and through terrorism decided it would try to run its own affairs as a trifling very small country of the world instead)

Chips Lovell · 07-03-2016 07:48PM

Nodin wrote: »

The British occupation.

Not sure if serious....

Nodin · 07-03-2016 07:48PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The glory years, when the whole island was privileged to be part of the greatest nation on earth, ruling the waves, and at the heart of the Empire on which the sun never set.[/QUOTE

I presume that has to be a wind up, however - why do you think that an Empire - a thing governed in the main by violence, that utilised sectarian, religious and racial bigotry to control and take the resources of other peoples and countries to their detriment - is something to be in any way glorified?

Nelson's Pillar

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