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Do you think a referendum on abortion would be passed?(not how you'd vote)

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Comments

  • #452
    Smidge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Smidge


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    How sad for you that you see yourself as a mere vessel or incubator
    You must have little or no experience of a loving joyful relationship where each partner cherishes and respects the other in equal amounts and when one is carrying a new life the other is respecting and cherishing 2 people with great joy and happiness to look forward too
    I'm 51 and have met many expectant mothers lots of whom were very unhappy but none of whom ever ever described themselves as being made to feel like a vessel or an incubator
    Can you give us examples of when you witnessed or experienced this kind of behaviour?

    You didn't even bother to read the post I quoted, did you?
    That poster said a woman was an incubator for a baby, not me.
    So rather than going off on a hyperbolic and speculative rant, try re-reading the posts.
    The example is there. If you can calm down long enough to read it ;)


  • #453
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    It's not callous. We're talking about a 9 month pregnancy, childbirth and then a lifetime of financial and emotional support. It's not something to enter into lightly.


    I agree.

    I still think that giving the child a chance of life is a better thing to do and in the case of choosing to adopt a child rather than abort, 9 months sacrifice for a child's who could live a good life and potentially make another family very happy is the better option in my opinion.


  • #454
    Smidge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Smidge


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    If the mother is physically and mentally well then the baby in utero has to be the priority

    In YOUR opinion.


  • #455
    jeamimus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 157 ✭✭jeamimus


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    If it was for cases of rape/incest. Would this be hard to prove. So would we essential be voting for abortion on demand.

    As if it makes a difference.

    You either believe an early foetus is a person or its not.

    Believing its a person is a theological concept (it follows that born people are way outnumbered in heaven by conceptii and foetuses), not a scientific one.

    Rape or incest should make no difference to this view.

    Either we ban it in all circumstances (the catholic theology position) or we allow it on demand up to a certain age of gestation.

    Rape, incest and fatal abnormalities are just red herrings.


  • #456
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    If pregnancy was as risky as you make it sound nobody would ever consider having children.It isn't as risky as you make it sound.10.5 deaths per 100,000 pregnancies is the rate in Ireland.

    When did I specify the risk? I said the risk exists. 10.5 per 100,000 is too many, if any of them are preventable by abortion. Remember also, we have abortion in Ireland, we just carry it out in the UK. So those figures are actually the figures with abortion available, albeit under unacceptable terms.

    Those small numbers of deaths are the deaths of wives and mothers- adult women whose loss will be felt by whole communities. Reducing them to statistics does not tell the full story.

    Mortality is only one aspect, at any rate. I said risk to life in this post, but normally I write "life and health".
    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    Sure it's a risk but so is walking across the road,getting into a car and any number of everyday things.

    Yes, which is why people are allowed to make choices about those things. Try forcing someone into a car and see how that works out for you.
    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    In my opinion adoption is a far better alternative than abortion as at least there is a chance of life.

    At the cost of someone else's suffering. By this logic, organ donations should be legally obligatory where someone can save a life. At least then there's a chance of life. It's worth putting someone through a non-consensual surgery to save a life, isn't it?


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  • #457
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    When did I specify the risk? I said the risk exists. 10.5 per 100,000 is too many, if any of them are preventable by abortion. Remember also, we have abortion in Ireland, we just carry it out in the UK. So those figures are actually the figures with abortion available, albeit under unacceptable terms.

    Those small numbers of deaths are the deaths of wives and mothers- adult women whose loss will be felt by whole communities. Reducing them to statistics does not tell the full story.

    Mortality is only one aspect, at any rate. I said risk to life in this post, but normally I write "life and health".



    Yes, which is why people are allowed to make choices about those things. Try forcing someone into a car and see how that works out for you.



    At the cost of someone else's suffering. By this logic, organ donations should be legally obligatory where someone can save a life. At least then there's a chance of life. It's worth putting someone through a non-consensual surgery to save a life, isn't it?

    There is a small risk involved in everything you do in life.Going to work/collecting your dole is not a choice, people have to do it in order to avoid starving yet there is a risk every time you move outside your home. You can't remove a risk from any activity or any aspect of life.Every single choice you make in life involves a risk and you make those choices knowing there is a risk involved and potentially unintended results.

    If you take your attitude and remove anything that were to potentially cause suffering or risk for someone we'd all live in a plastic bubble.

    Adoption is still the preferable option to abortion in my opinion and nothing will convince me otherwise.


  • #458
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    There is a small risk involved in everything you do in life.Going to work/collecting your dole is not a choice, people have to do it in order to avoid starving yet there is a risk every time you move outside your home.

    It IS a choice. You weigh the one risk (going outside) versus another (starving- if that's really the risk) and YOU choose. Nobody does it for you, no law forces your hand in one direction or the other.

    That is the whole point of the pro-choice movement. Not to promote or force abortions, but to offer women the same choice in that situation as anyone else is presented with when they must weigh one risk against another.

    They may decide that you're correct, and the risk is worth taking, but it must be their choice.
    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    You can't remove a risk from any activity or any aspect of life.Every single choice you make in life involves a risk and you make those choices knowing there is a risk involved and potentially unintended results.

    If you take your attitude and remove anything that were to potentially cause suffering or risk for someone we'd all live in a plastic bubble.

    Who said anything about removing risk? I'm talking about being allowed to choose.
    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    Adoption is still the preferable option to abortion in my opinion and nothing will convince me otherwise.

    Then we're done, I assume?


  • #459
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    It IS a choice. You weigh the one risk (going outside) versus another (starving- if that's really the risk) and YOU choose. Nobody does it for you, no law forces your hand in one direction or the other.

    That is the whole point of the pro-choice movement. Not to promote or force abortions, but to offer women the same choice in that situation as anyone else is presented with when they must weigh one risk against another.

    They may decide that you're correct, and the risk is worth taking, but it must be their choice.



    Who said anything about removing risk? I'm talking about being allowed to choose.



    Then we're done, I assume?

    Yep.


  • #460
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Maybe they're lower where Volchitsa went? What's to explain?

    She does need to explain her statement. She alleges, and I quote, that in countries where there is nothing like the 8th amendment, that "outcomes are better"
    Well that's not true
    We have the 8th amendment here and our low ratio of maternal and perinatal deaths is much admired worldwide.
    That's a fact. So, no, she's wrong.


  • #461
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    I agree.

    I still think that giving the child a chance of life is a better thing to do and in the case of choosing to adopt a child rather than abort, 9 months sacrifice for a child's who could live a good life and potentially make another family very happy is the better option in my opinion.

    Nine months sacrifice?
    I dunno if you're male or female but you're just assuming that pregnancy is going to be straight forward for nine months followed by a perfect easy labour and then it's all done and dusted once the baby is cared for by the adopted family.
    Pregnancy can cause an abundance of life long problems for all parts of your body. Labour can be a hugely traumatic experience in itself. Hormones after the birth can cause all sorts of mental health issues which can linger for years at the best of times. It is not a 9 month sacrifice that ends once the adoption is complete. And no woman should feel she should have to make that sacrifice just to make some hypothetical family happy.


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  • #462
    It wasnt me123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭It wasnt me123


    Why don't we ask the 4,000 + women that go to the UK each year what their experiences were like?

    What about their rights? They had to leave their own home/country to travel to a foreign place, with no family or friendly support for a termination of a pregnancy that they don't want. A woman is not an incubator.

    Abortion/termination should be a woman's choice. If its legal, it doesn't mean its compulsory, you don't have to have one.

    Why does the State think a woman is not entitled to the autonomy of their own bodies? Is there somewhere in the Constitution that tells a man he can't impregnate a woman unless the woman wants a baby/the resulting baby will be born healthy/etc? No, well why the hell is it okay to dictate to a woman!

    Do the people who say no to abortion think its going to stop the exodus to the UK. Of course it won't. Its about time Ireland took care of its own instead of pretending they don't exist.


  • #463
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    She does need to explain her statement. She alleges, and I quote, that in countries where there is nothing like the 8th amendment, that "outcomes are better"

    Actually, you don't quote. This is the quote:
    volchitsa wrote: »
    in places where the evil 8th amendment doesn't exist, the mother is the priority, and that gives better outcomes for both

    Now, I agree that she hasn't supported this assertion, but you certainly haven't challenged it in the slightest. You didn't ask her to explain her position, you asked her to explain your statistics:
    wokingvoter wrote: »
    But how can you explain then the incidents of maternal death in Ireland being amongst the lowest in the entire world?

    She does not need to explain them because they're of limited relevance.

    You've given one part of a very complex equation- maternal survival rates. This is a problem in several ways:
    • Maternal mortality is only one kind of health outcome- she referred to outcomes, not to mortality alone.
    • It only relates to one party- but she stated outcomes were better for both overall.
    • Pointing to the rate being "good" in Ireland means little. Perhaps with abortion it would be better or worse than it is. Perhaps that high rate comes at the expense of some other factor (such as other maternal health outcomes or infant outcomes).
    • Pointing to the rate being better or worse than countries with abortion (which you didn't do anyway) would mean little due to confounders such as differing overall healthcare standards, economics, population demographics- take your pick there are countless confounding factors.

    So when I ask what's to explain, I mean that your demand she explain your stats is not reasonable. You're presenting the evidence, do it yourself, and do it properly.
    wokingvoter wrote: »
    Well that's not true
    We have the 8th amendment here and our low ratio of maternal and perinatal deaths is much admired worldwide.

    We also have abortion here, we just export it to the UK. What would those stats look like if those 4000+ women who get terminations had no recourse?
    wokingvoter wrote: »
    That's a fact. So, no, she's wrong.

    Nonsense. A fact? You've demonstrated exactly nothing, other than that you can cite a source without doing a critical analysis. Argument from authority is nothing to to be pleased with.


  • #464
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    Tasden wrote: »
    Nine months sacrifice?
    I dunno if you're male or female but you're just assuming that pregnancy is going to be straight forward for nine months followed by a perfect easy labour and then it's all done and dusted once the baby is cared for by the adopted family.
    Pregnancy can cause an abundance of life long problems for all parts of your body. Labour can be a hugely traumatic experience in itself. Hormones after the birth can cause all sorts of mental health issues which can linger for years at the best of times. It is not a 9 month sacrifice that ends once the adoption is complete. And no woman should feel she should have to make that sacrifice just to make some hypothetical family happy.


    You make it sound like it's some form of life lasting torture.Most women have went through it and function quite well in their life afterwards.If it was as bad as you make out nobody would ever risk getting pregnant.

    It's still a better alternative to having an abortion in my opinion.


  • #465
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    You make it sound like it's some form of life lasting torture.Most women have went through it and function quite well in their life afterwards.If it was as bad as you make out nobody would ever risk getting pregnant.

    It's still a better alternative to having an abortion in my opinion.

    It's difficult enough when you want the baby. I'd imagine if you are unable to access abortion the mental impact alone must make it unbearable. We'd never force a person to donate blood or an organ to save another's life, why should women sacrifice nine months plus recovery time. Fair enough if you think abortion is the wrong decision but that's something you can decide for yourself if you ever get pregnant.


  • #466
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    You make it sound like it's some form of life lasting torture.Most women have went through it and function quite well in their life afterwards.

    There are loads of side effects to giving birth. If you're unaware of them then you have not been paying very close attention.

    Off the top of my head, epidural complications, incontinence, hormonal imbalances, postpartum depression, pelvic floor dysfunction, scarring and infection from tears and cuts.

    Historically it has been taboo for women to publicly talk about these, and this is only changing slowly.
    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    If it was as bad as you make out nobody would ever risk getting pregnant.

    Some don't. If it were less risky, maybe more would.
    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    It's still a better alternative to having an abortion in my opinion.

    We get it. You will repeat that in every post forever.


  • #467
    anothernight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    But how can you explain then the incidents of maternal death in Ireland being amongst the lowest in the entire world?

    A few years ago it was found that Irish maternal death rates were underreported (or rather, reported differently than most countries), making the numbers look much more favourable in comparison to other countries than they actually were.

    That's why the UN uses an adjustment factor before comparing in this report. Note that only Slovenia has a higher adjustment factor to account for death misclassification than Ireland.

    Maternal mortality rates in Ireland are in fact increasing.


  • #468
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    You make it sound like it's some form of life lasting torture.Most women have went through it and function quite well in their life afterwards.If it was as bad as you make out nobody would ever risk getting pregnant.

    It's still a better alternative to having an abortion in my opinion.

    Most people risk it it in order to have a baby for themselves. In order to have a wanted and cherished baby worth all the possible complications that you seem to be trivialising here.
    I don't see many women lining up to do it for ****s and giggles.


  • #469
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    Tasden wrote: »
    Most people risk it it in order to have a baby for themselves. In order to have a wanted and cherished baby worth all the possible complications that you seem to be trivialising here.
    I don't see many women lining up to do it for ****s and giggles.

    I'm not trivialising the complications.I'm well aware of them.

    It still isn't anywhere near as risky or complicated as you are portraying it to be and in my opinion going through with the pregnancy is a better option than abortion.


  • #470
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    I'm not trivialising the complications.I'm well aware of them.

    It still isn't anywhere near as risky or complicated as you are portraying it to be and in my opinion going through with the pregnancy is a better option than abortion.

    It's more risky than a legal abortion and we already know your opinion at this stage, you don't have to repeat it ad nauseam.


  • #471
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    I'm not trivialising the complications.I'm well aware of them.

    It still isn't anywhere near as risky or complicated as you are portraying it to be and in my opinion going through with the pregnancy is a better option than abortion.

    If you're well aware of them then why did you make out like pregnancy is just a 9 month sacrifice?


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  • #472
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    anothernight wrote: »
    A few years ago it was found that Irish maternal death rates were underreported (or rather, reported differently than most countries), making the numbers look much more favourable in comparison to other countries than they actually were.

    That's why the UN uses an adjustment factor before comparing in this report. Note that only Slovenia has a higher adjustment factor to account for death misclassification than Ireland.

    Maternal mortality rates in Ireland are in fact increasing.

    AFAIK Ireland is still good too mid-range for maternity deaths in a European context.

    The reasoning behind the increase in mortality in Ireland isn't actually because of failures in the health system its due to an increased migrant community (in case people people don't read the link and jump to conclusions).

    Realistically the levels of maternal deaths are so low less than 40 in 3 years that your risk of death during pregnancy is only something like 2-3 times your risk of death from a random motor accident (and surprisingly Ireland is a safe place for the roads now, in the US it would actually be equivalent).

    In short with the very low death rates (across the developed world) I am not sure its a particular good argument, particularly since you can make the point using the lots of non-fatal health complications (and general impacts) relating to pregnancy that are widespread and some of which are life long


  • #473
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Actually, you don't quote. This is the quote:



    Now, I agree that she hasn't supported this assertion, but you certainly haven't challenged it in the slightest. You didn't ask her to explain her position, you asked her to explain your statistics:



    She does not need to explain them because they're of limited relevance.

    You've given one part of a very complex equation- maternal survival rates. This is a problem in several ways:
    • Maternal mortality is only one kind of health outcome- she referred to outcomes, not to mortality alone.
    • It only relates to one party- but she stated outcomes were better for both overall.
    • Pointing to the rate being "good" in Ireland means little. Perhaps with abortion it would be better or worse than it is. Perhaps that high rate comes at the expense of some other factor (such as other maternal health outcomes or infant outcomes).
    • Pointing to the rate being better or worse than countries with abortion (which you didn't do anyway) would mean little due to confounders such as differing overall healthcare standards, economics, population demographics- take your pick there are countless confounding factors.

    So when I ask what's to explain, I mean that your demand she explain your stats is not reasonable. You're presenting the evidence, do it yourself, and do it properly.



    We also have abortion here, we just export it to the UK. What would those stats look like if those 4000+ women who get terminations had no recourse?



    Nonsense. A fact? You've demonstrated exactly nothing, other than that you can cite a source without doing a critical analysis. Argument from authority is nothing to to be pleased with.

    Maternal death rates in UK (abortion to 24 weeks) and US (abortion on demand )are far far higher then they are here
    It's not rocket science to conclude that it's highly unlikely that abortion here will improve our already admirably low maternal death rate
    You've gone to a lot of bother there to try and explain away a few uncomfortable (for pro choice people) facts


  • #474
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    I'm not trivialising the complications.I'm well aware of them.

    You were completely dismissing them.


  • #475
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    Maternal death rates in UK (abortion to 24 weeks) and US (abortion on demand )are far far higher then they are here
    It's not rocket science to conclude that it's highly unlikely that abortion here will improve our already admirably low maternal death rate
    You've gone to a lot of bother there to try and explain away a few uncomfortable (for pro choice people) facts

    Right for USA but thats because they have such massive inequality, not true or debatable for the UK (depending on the year).


  • #476
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    Tasden wrote: »
    Nine months sacrifice?
    I dunno if you're male or female but you're just assuming that pregnancy is going to be straight forward for nine months followed by a perfect easy labour and then it's all done and dusted once the baby is cared for by the adopted family.
    Pregnancy can cause an abundance of life long problems for all parts of your body. Labour can be a hugely traumatic experience in itself. Hormones after the birth can cause all sorts of mental health issues which can linger for years at the best of times. It is not a 9 month sacrifice that ends once the adoption is complete. And no woman should feel she should have to make that sacrifice just to make some hypothetical family happy.

    And yet billions of women do it, some of them over and over....... with ZERO consequences or side effects for millions of years!


  • #477
    anothernight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    Maternal death rates in UK (abortion to 24 weeks) and US (abortion on demand )are far far higher then they are here


    That's not actually true, you know. Ireland has fairly average maternal death rates for a developed European country.


  • #478
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    And yet billions of women do it, some of them over and over....... with ZERO consequences or side effects for millions of years!

    To have a baby that they are going to keep and love and cherish.
    Not to hand over the baby they didn't even want at the end of it all.


  • #479
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Right for USA but thats because they have such massive inequality, not true or debatable for the UK (depending on the year).

    I can't copy links but if you google Irish maternal deaths it's all there
    Even taking into account alleged under reporting, were still streets ahead of UK and only a little bit behind other European countries
    And China with forced abortions? One of the worst maternal death rates on the planet
    Shocking


  • #480
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    I can't copy links but if you google Irish maternal deaths it's all there
    Even taking into account alleged under reporting, were still streets ahead of UK and only a little bit behind other European countries
    And China with forced abortions? One of the worst maternal death rates on the planet
    Shocking

    Because we report maternal deaths differently we're streets ahead of the UK.


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  • #481
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    Tasden wrote: »
    To have a baby that they are going to keep and love and cherish.
    Not to hand over the baby they didn't even want at the end of it all.

    No. Lots of women have babies and give them up for adoption all over the world and they chalk it up to experience and get on with their lives with no ill effects


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