Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

54and56 · 29-02-2016 09:13PM

steamengine wrote: »

It is just through chance, that I am not a Catholic, Muslim or Atheist for that matter

Not in my case. It was through chance that I was indoctrinated into Catholicism before I could even speak but it was through choice once I developed the ability to think for myself that I became an Atheist

steamengine · 29-02-2016 09:38PM

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Not in my case. It was through chance that I was indoctrinated into Catholicism before I could even speak but it was through choice once I developed the ability to think for myself that I became an Atheist

It was through choice after some unsolicited paranormal experiences, in later life, that I realised that the choice that was made for me was broadly correct. How atheists can be absolutely sure there is no God escapes me, but it's a subject for another thread.

54and56 · 29-02-2016 10:29PM

steamengine wrote: »

How atheists can be absolutely sure there is no God escapes me

That's the logic people who believed the earth was flat used to use.

I don't pretend to speak for anyone other than myself but for me it's really quite simple. If there is any objective measurable evidence for a hypothesis, religious or otherwise, I'll examine it and subject to the evidence standing up to independent scrutiny I'll accept it. I try very hard to keep an open mind because I know new discoveries about the world we live in are being made on a frequent basis.

The only things I have faith in are that the loving relationships I have are mutually reciprocated and that one day Liverpool football club will once again be champions of England. The former I have some supporting evidence for e.g. being forgiven when I let people I love down or acts of kindness they have shown to me but the latter I have no recent evidence for whatsoever, it's totally blind faith, a bit like religion :-)

steamengine · 29-02-2016 10:53PM

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

That's the logic people who believed the earth was flat used to use.

I don't pretend to speak for anyone other than myself but for me it's really quite simple. If there is any objective measurable evidence for a hypothesis, religious or otherwise, I'll examine it and subject to the evidence standing up to independent scrutiny I'll accept it. I try very hard to keep an open mind because I know new discoveries about the world we live in are being made on a frequent basis.

The only things I have faith in are that the loving relationships I have are mutually reciprocated and that one day Liverpool football club will once again be champions of England. The former I have some supporting evidence for e.g. being forgiven when I let people I love down or acts of kindness they have shown to me but the latter I have no recent evidence for whatsoever, it's totally blind faith, a bit like religion :-)

No, it's a reasonable question. Atheists state they don't believe in God, so how are they so certain he does not exist ?

frag420 · 29-02-2016 10:59PM

steamengine wrote: »

No, it's a reasonable question. Atheists state they don't believe in God, so how are they so certain he does not exist ?

If God appeared tomorrow, how would you know it was God? What are those things you would tell non believers to look out for, those signs that would identify and confirm it was without a doubt really God appearing on earth?

volchitsa · 29-02-2016 11:01PM

steamengine wrote: »

No, it's a reasonable question. Atheists state they don't believe in God, so how are they so certain he does not exist ?

That depends what you mean by "God".

Do you mean the God who is described in any one of the main religions and if so which?

Or do you just mean any sort of creative power that caused the world to "be", and if so, does that have to include some sort of conscious creative desire or could it be a mathematical equation for example?

steamengine · 29-02-2016 11:08PM

frag420 wrote: »

If God appeared tomorrow, how would you know it was God? What are those things you would tell non believers to look out for, those signs that would identify and confirm it was without a doubt really God appearing on earth?

I'd really like an answer to my question of how atheists are so certain about the non-existence of God.

Second Toughest in_the Freshers · 29-02-2016 11:10PM

I'm agnostic on the question

steamengine · 29-02-2016 11:18PM

volchitsa wrote: »

That depends what you mean by "God".

Do you mean the God who is described in any one of the main religions and if so which?

Or do you just mean any sort of creative power that caused the world to "be", and if so, does that have to include some sort of conscious creative desire or could it be a mathematical equation for example?

Whatever sort of God the atheist is referring to. That's not meant to be a smart answer, it's just on this forum the non-belief generally seems to be definite and without doubt.

AtomicHorror · 29-02-2016 11:39PM

steamengine wrote: »

Whatever sort of God the atheist is referring to. That's not meant to be a smart answer, it's just on this forum the non-belief generally seems to be definite and without doubt.

Atheists typically apply the scientific method to claims made by others about gods. We're (usually) not in the business of defining the concept of gods ourselves as that would be a form of straw-manning.

It's up to you to define what you mean by "God" in such a way that there are measurable or testable consequences to the definition. Otherwise we could just be accused of inventing an easy target to hit.

Kev W · 29-02-2016 11:39PM

steamengine wrote: »

No, it's a reasonable question. Atheists state they don't believe in God, so how are they so certain he does not exist ?

The simplest answer is that not all atheists are certain that there is no god or gods. They merely don't believe there is because there is no real evidence to suggest that there is.

This is known as Agnostic Atheism and is possibly the most common form of atheism, though that's my own supposition based only on discussions I've had on the subject, not on any study.

The belief that there is definitely no god or gods is known as Gnostic Atheism and can, perhaps ironically, be described as a form of faith, given that absence of proof is not proof of absence.

oldrnwisr · 29-02-2016 11:51PM

steamengine wrote: »

No, it's a reasonable question. Atheists state they don't believe in God, so how are they so certain he does not exist ?

We're not. Or more correctly I'm not. There are, in fact, very few things that I'm certain of. But to answer your question, there is a big difference between a lack of belief in a god or gods and a positive belief that no gods exist.

You see it all has to do with gnosticism, not in the biblical sense but in the sense of the degree to which something is or can be known. You'll find that most atheists describe themselves as agnostic atheists (certainly most of the A&A regulars would probably describe themselves in that fashion). I don't know for certain if there is a god or not, but I don't believe that there is one because no one has presented sufficient evidence for any of the 2800 or so gods that people believe or have believed in.

At a basic level my atheism is a lack of belief in gods, gods just don't feature among the things I believe in. Atheism can be viewed like the null hypothesis in statistics, the position before proof. When a person makes a claim that god X exists, the position before proof is to say that god X doesn't exist. It is for the person making the claim to overturn the null hypothesis with evidence and reasoned argument.

Now, if we're talking about the Christian God, then I affirmatively believe that he doesn't exist. Again, however, this is not based on a leap of faith but a conclusion based on studying the claims made about him and the scriptural documents offered as evidence for his existence.
On the other hand, if we're talking about Quetzlcoatl or Tiamat or Baal, then I wouldn't be as firmly convinced of their non-existence because I don't have sufficient information to decide for certain one way or the other. However, since there are, as I already stated, over 2800 gods that humans have claimed to exist, then I withhold belief until such time as someone makes a claim to me. Like theramintrees video below, my atheism is a refusal to play an impossible game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gcw1YEtTQCw

I hope this answers your question.

steamengine · 01-03-2016 12:03AM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Atheists typically apply the scientific method to claims made by others about gods. We're (usually) not in the business of defining the concept of gods ourselves as that would be a form of straw-manning.

It's up to you to define what you mean by "God" in such a way that there are measurable or testable consequences to the definition. Otherwise we could just be accused of inventing an easy target to hit.

No, I disagree, that's just dodging the question. If atheists say they don't believe in God, then it is reasonable for someone to ask them how they can be certain in their belief there is no God. It's really very straightforward.

pauldla · 01-03-2016 04:44AM

steamengine wrote: »

No, I disagree, that's just dodging the question. If atheists say they don't believe in God, then it is reasonable for someone to ask them how they can be certain in their belief there is no God. It's really very straightforward.

Not wishing to get into a long discussion on the matter, or derail the thread, but I do see a distinction between 'not believing in God' and 'believing there is no God'. I do not believe, but I cannot be certain that there is no god.

If you have the time, and the interest, then opening a thread asking the question on A&A might be worth considering (some of them will happily go on about it all day :P).

54and56 · 01-03-2016 06:01AM

steamengine wrote: »

I'd really like an answer to my question of how atheists are so certain about the non-existence of God.

Because there is no evidence whatsoever.

Absolam · 01-03-2016 06:10AM

steamengine wrote: »

No, I disagree, that's just dodging the question. If atheists say they don't believe in God, then it is reasonable for someone to ask them how they can be certain in their belief there is no God. It's really very straightforward.

I think you're missing the notion that atheists are not certain in their belief there is no God; they have no beliefs regarding gods. When they say they don't believe in God, they're not saying they believe there is no God. Do you see the difference?
An atheist will tell you there is no God because no evidence has been presented that demonstrates that there is.
An agnostic will tell you that there simply has been no evidence presented that demonstrates that there is a God, therefore it is not known whether there is a God or not; on the balance of evidence it is probable that there is no God.
Neither position involves a belief though.

Second Toughest in_the Freshers · 01-03-2016 06:17AM

I don't believe that.

54and56 · 01-03-2016 07:14AM

steamengine wrote: »

No, it's a reasonable question. Atheists state they don't believe in God, so how are they so certain he does not exist ?

Actually, a couple of more things:-

1. Which God are you referring to? There are 22 main religious groupings according to http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html Which one is the one true god and how did you manage to pick the right one to follow when most people in the world don't?

2. Why do you assume God, if such a thing exists, is a "he"?

Delirium · 01-03-2016 08:41AM

MOD NOTE

Atheism discussion moved to atheism super-thread

54and56 · 01-03-2016 08:43AM

steamengine wrote: »

I'd really like an answer to my question of how atheists are so certain about the non-existence of God.

Another perfectly valid answer is that Atheists are certain about the non-existence of your chosen god for the same reason you are certain about the non-existence of any of the other thousands of "gods" the majority of people in the world believe in.

The World Christian Encyclopedia, published by Oxford University Press identifies 10,000 distinct religions, of which 150 have 1 million or more followers. Within Christianity, they identify 33,830 denominations. See http://www.amazon.com/World-Christian-Encyclopedia-Comparative-Religions/dp/0195079639

I guess you either got lucky or used some shrewd decision making to determine which is the correct god to believe in?

steamengine · 01-03-2016 09:09AM

pauldla wrote: »

Not wishing to get into a long discussion on the matter, or derail the thread, but I do see a distinction between 'not believing in God' and 'believing there is no God'. I do not believe, but I cannot be certain that there is no god.

If you have the time, and the interest, then opening a thread asking the question on A&A might be worth considering (some of them will happily go on about it all day :P).

Believers might also say - 'I believe, but I at times doubt there is a God.' - which is something similar.

Others definitely believe there is and others again, definitely do not believe.

For those who believe in God, it's usually subjective but very definite in some cases such as people who have reported back on their near death experiences, and others have experienced dramatic conversions where they have experienced the presence of God in their lives.

There is a series of books by Colm Keane - one of which is called 'Heading for the Light' - well worth the read for anyone who is in doubt about God and the after-life.

volchitsa · 01-03-2016 09:09AM

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Another perfectly valid answer is that Atheists are certain about the non-existence of your chosen god for the same reason you are certain about the non-existence of any of the other thousands of "gods" the majority of people in the world believe in.

The World Christian Encyclopedia, published by Oxford University Press identifies 10,000 distinct religions, of which 150 have 1 million or more followers. Within Christianity, they identify 33,830 denominations. See http://www.amazon.com/World-Christian-Encyclopedia-Comparative-Religions/dp/0195079639

I guess you either got lucky or used some shrewd decision making to determine which is the correct god to believe in?

This, of course.

There is no more testable evidence for the God of the bible than for Mars, Apollo, Thor or Lugh. So I'm as certain that Yahweh doesn't exist as I am about Thor, which is to say pretty damn sure.

Although obviously I could be in for a nasty surprise in Valhalla.

Wasn't there a cartoon about that on the Religious Jokes thread some time back? About a Christian family turning up at the gates of heaven to discover they'd been worshipping the wrong God all that time? (I won't spoil the joke for anyone who hasn't read the thread)

steamengine · 01-03-2016 09:57AM

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Another perfectly valid answer is that Atheists are certain about the non-existence of your chosen god for the same reason you are certain about the non-existence of any of the other thousands of "gods" the majority of people in the world believe in.

The World Christian Encyclopedia, published by Oxford University Press identifies 10,000 distinct religions, of which 150 have 1 million or more followers. Within Christianity, they identify 33,830 denominations. See http://www.amazon.com/World-Christian-Encyclopedia-Comparative-Religions/dp/0195079639

I guess you either got lucky or used some shrewd decision making to determine which is the correct god to believe in?

I got lucky

El_Duderino 09 · 01-03-2016 10:01AM

steamengine wrote:

No, it's a reasonable question. Atheists state they don't believe in God, so how are they so certain he does not exist ?

That's an unfair question. Theists and non theists mean something different when they say they 'believe' something.

I 'believe' the big bang happened. By that I mean:
1. It's the best explanation of the evidence.
2. I'm not certain it happened.
3. If evidence disproved it, I would discard it like a hot snot.

That is not what theists mean when they say they 'believe' in gods.

1. They don't believe based on evidence,
2. They are much closer to certain their god exists.
3. The god is untestable so they dont worry about evidence disproving their god.

People use evidence in normal life but theists use 'faith' which is exempt from the norms rules of what's real and what's not.

To answer your loaded question. I don't believe in God because of the complete lack of evidence. Certainty in its non existance, doesn't enter into the equation because it doesn't merit consideration due to complete lack of evidence

steamengine · 01-03-2016 12:28PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's an unfair question. Theists and non theists mean something different when they say they 'believe' something.

I 'believe' the big bang happened. By that I mean:
1. It's the best explanation of the evidence.
2. I'm not certain it happened.
3. If evidence disproved it, I would discard it like a hot snot.

That is not what theists mean when they say they 'believe' in gods.

1. They don't believe based on evidence,
2. They are much closer to certain their god exists.
3. The god is untestable so they dont worry about evidence disproving their god.

People use evidence in normal life but theists use 'faith' which is exempt from the norms rules of what's real and what's not.

To answer your loaded question. I don't believe in God because of the complete lack of evidence. Certainty in its non existance, doesn't enter into the equation because it doesn't merit consideration due to complete lack of evidence

Let's suppose - as there appears to be no proof one way or the other - that there is a God. Is it not reasonable to also consider the possibility, that he/she/it exists on a plane of existence, that is beyond our limited range of observation. In other words, we simply cannot understand God. I draw a parallel with four dimensional space-time, which via analogy can be understood, but in essence cannot, as it's beyond our understanding. Our logic is very limited and is largely restricted to the Newtonian view of the world.

As soon as we countenance the universe as a whole, a whole new ball game kicks in and I merely suggest the possibility of a God somewhere in the mix. I suppose I acknowledge an intelligent designer. I also believe this God as the one mentioned in the Nicene creed.

El_Duderino 09 · 01-03-2016 12:52PM

steamengine wrote:

Let's suppose - as there appears to be no proof one way or the other - that there is a God. Is it not reasonable to also consider the possibility, that he/she/it exists on a plane of existence, that is beyond our limited range of observation. In other words, we simply cannot understand God. I draw a parallel with four dimensional space-time, which via analogy can be understood, but in essence cannot, as it's beyond our understanding. Our logic is very limited and is largely restricted to the Newtonian view of the world.

Fine. So you're proposing a thing that can exist and we can't have any way of detecting it, testing it's existence or gathering any solid evidence one way or the other. The likelihood of that things existence is whatever you define it as.

It's exactly as likely as anything else you can imagine. What you gave done is imagine it, what you have not done is detect it and calculated it's likelihood of existing.

steamengine wrote:

As soon as we countenance the universe as a whole, a whole new ball game kicks in and I merely suggest the possibility of a God somewhere in the mix. I suppose I acknowledge an intelligent designer. I also believe this God as the one mentioned in the Nicene creed.

I don't rule out the existence if gods. I think they are as likely to exist as any imaginations without the first piece of evidence - not likely but not necessarily impossible.

Does that explain the agnostic atheist position and the distinction between 'not believing on gods' vs 'believing that gods do not exist'?

frag420 · 01-03-2016 01:06PM

steamengine wrote: »

I'd really like an answer to my question of how atheists are so certain about the non-existence of God.

Because you or anyone has not provided proof that he exists!

If I told you I had 74 ankles, would you believe me without proof that I had 74 ankles. Would you expect me to provide you with proof first for you to believe me or is it up to you to prove I dont have 74 ankles?

So if you know God exists then you should have no problem answering my question avove that you replied to.

54and56 · 01-03-2016 01:42PM

steamengine wrote: »

Let's suppose - as there appears to be no proof one way or the other - that there is a God. Is it not reasonable to also consider the possibility, that he/she/it exists on a plane of existence, that is beyond our limited range of observation. In other words, we simply cannot understand God. I draw a parallel with four dimensional space-time, which via analogy can be understood, but in essence cannot, as it's beyond our understanding. Our logic is very limited and is largely restricted to the Newtonian view of the world.

As soon as we countenance the universe as a whole, a whole new ball game kicks in and I merely suggest the possibility of a God somewhere in the mix. I suppose I acknowledge an intelligent designer. I also believe this God as the one mentioned in the Nicene creed.

What genuinely amazes me (and equally impresses me in relation to how the leaders of religions manage it) is that people like yourself Steam acknowledge there isn't the slightest bit of evidence that any of the thousands of alleged gods exist yet you dedicate a significant part of the short few years we have as human beings on this earth (relative to the age of the universe) to thinking about/praying to/obeying a god who you hope will welcome you with open arms when you die rather than condemn you to eternal damnation in hell (which there is no evidence for either) and you seem quite content to do so. It really and truly amazes me. Do you act out of fear of hell if you don't? Are you just plain bored or do you enjoy the tranquillity praying and singing hymns etc brings? (Genuine questions, not trying to inflame.)

steamengine · 01-03-2016 01:51PM

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

What genuinely amazes me (and equally impresses me in relation to how the leaders of religions manage it) is that people like yourself Steam acknowledge there isn't the slightest bit of evidence that any of the thousands of alleged gods exist yet you dedicate a significant part of the short few years we have as human beings on this earth (relative to the age of the universe) to thinking about/praying to/obeying a god who you hope will welcome you with open arms when you die rather than condemn you to eternal damnation in hell (which there is no evidence for either) and you seem quite content to do so. It really and truly amazes me. Do you act out of fear of hell if you don't? Are you just plain bored or do you enjoy the tranquillity praying and singing hymns etc brings? (Genuine questions, not trying to inflame.)

I'm not alone, there are billions like me. Interestingly enough I checked recently and about half of the worlds leading cosmologists also have some sort of belief in God. I regard them as the theologians of our time, in that they are reaching back to the moment of creation.

frag420 · 01-03-2016 02:02PM

steamengine wrote: »

I'm not alone, there are billions like me. Interestingly enough I checked recently and about half of the worlds leading cosmologists also have some sort of belief in God. I regard them as the theologians of our time, in that they are reaching back to the moment of creation.

Well according to many Christians these leading cosmologists should not have too far to reach back to the moment of creation..............so whats taking them so long from telling us about God and his creations, giving us proof?

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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