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Does the Irish army do much to defend Ireland?

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    #122
    cajonlardo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭cajonlardo


    Grab All Association wrote: »
    I once seen the IDF up at the Devil's Bit Templemore. They lit the fire by rubbing sticks together, erected their tents, stitching badges on their vest and were singing camp fire songs.

    What were the israelis doing in Templemore :eek:


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    #123
    sjb25
    Registered Users Posts: 3,377 ✭✭✭sjb25


    Defence forces keeping the world safe in Syria :)

    http://www.joe.ie/sport/video-kilkenny-hurler-eoin-larkin-takes-the-hurling-bin-challenge-to-the-next-level/531847


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    #124
    sjb25
    Registered Users Posts: 3,377 ✭✭✭sjb25


    cajonlardo wrote: »
    What were the israelis doing in Templemore :eek:

    ...


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    #125
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Luckyfran wrote: »
    435 + 65 euro is for a 5 year soldier isnt great i thought they were on a lot more but look soldiers arent rocket scientests like the luas lads they have an inflateted view of themselves

    No, of course. We're chimps really. Any moron can quickly learn and adapt to a variety of skills and drills relevant to all of the weapons systems they might be required to use at a moment's notice; maintain a comprehensive understanding of military and civilian law relevant to their job and interpret high pressure situations in terms of their responsibilities, vulnerabilities and limitations; interface with civilian populations to de-escalate violent and potentially violent situations; operate a variety of communications equipment; drive a variety of vehicles, any one of which might be the entire job of someone in the private sector, in conditions that would never be encountered in the private sector; maintain their fitness, physical and mental discipline such that they can deal with being away from their families and friends for long periods of time in conditions that range from near Arctic cold to equatorial heat and tropical jungle conditions, coupled with very real threat to life and health; confront natural disasters and domestic incidents within Ireland and respond to calls at any time of day, all year round. All for the princely sum of half what you guessed we were on. If you're such a rocket scientist, a ten second Google search would have gotten you the pay scale, but I guess that's the work ethic you get in the private sector...


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    #126
    Negative_G
    Registered Users Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    No, of course. We're chimps really. Any moron can quickly learn and adapt to a variety of skills and drills relevant to all of the weapons systems they might be required to use at a moment's notice; maintain a comprehensive understanding of military and civilian law relevant to their job and interpret high pressure situations in terms of their responsibilities, vulnerabilities and limitations; interface with civilian populations to de-escalate violent and potentially violent situations; operate a variety of communications equipment; drive a variety of vehicles, any one of which might be the entire job of someone in the private sector, in conditions that would never be encountered in the private sector; maintain their fitness, physical and mental discipline such that they can deal with being away from their families and friends for long periods of time in conditions that range from near Arctic cold to equatorial heat and tropical jungle conditions, coupled with very real threat to life and health; confront natural disasters and domestic incidents within Ireland and respond to calls at any time of day, all year round. All for the princely sum of half what you guessed we were on. If you're such a rocket scientist, a ten second Google search would have gotten you the pay scale, but I guess that's the work ethic you get in the private sector...

    You are biting very hard.

    I'm not belittling your post and appreciate all of what you said but if this thread has demonstrated anything its that the general perception of the DF is that they are a waste of money.

    Spelling it out won't change some of these mindsets.

    The DF offers excellent value for money for the minimal funds it receives. I believe the last Defence budget was approximately €850m. Of this 70% roughly goes to pay and pensions, the rest of paying for new equipment and the day to day running of the entire DF.

    That budget wouldn't last long if it was poured into the HSE pot.

    What I would say is the allocation of funds and resources is completely wrong. Historically the majority of resources were directed to the army, with the Naval service and Air Corps scrapping for the rest. For an island nation we do not have the maritime or aerial assets we should have. But then, someone would have to take defence seriously and shake this notion of 'neutrality' from the psyche.

    I know the army types won't like to hear this but the closure of barracks and restructure to two brigades was required and I would fully support the continued reduction as long as the savings were ploughed into the two other branches.


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    #127
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,482 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Not a defense role, but the Irish Army Equitation School have done phenomenal work in promoting Irish Sports Horses worldwide, which is a huge economic boost to the county. People come from all over the world to buy our horses. And c'mon, the like of Capt. Ledingham in the Aga Khan was the stuff childhood dreams were made of!


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    #128
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    Only people that go into the army are those that can't get a job anywhere else.


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    #129
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    Only people that go into the army are those that can't get a job anywhere else.

    I left a better paying job to join the army because it's what I wanted to do and haven't been unemployed for the eight years since I got my first job. Next stupid assertion please.


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    #130
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Why's there so much negativity directed at the Irish Defence Forces? AFAIA they have an excellent reputation as peace-keepers and the Army Rangers are supposed to be up there with the best special ops forces in the world.


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    #131
    368100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,067 ✭✭✭368100


    hmmm wrote: »
    The Irish army has spent most of its existence protecting the State from internal threats e.g. the IRA and their offshoots - that's why you see army protection of cash delivery vans.

    They might not be needed just right now, but I'd hate to think that if we ever got rid of them we'd be almost defenseless against armed Republicans.

    That's been withdrawn now, they no longer escort cash deliveries.


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    #132
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    What's the point of having an army when it's so weak?
    Who would bother launching a land invasion on us?
    Its peacekeeping operations are negligible.

    May as well disband it entirely and transfer its domestic duties to the Gardai.


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    #133
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    Only people that go into the army are those that can't get a job anywhere else.

    You're confused, thats Human Resources.


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    #134
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    The Irish army do enough considering we don't traditionally have any enemies.


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    #135
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    What's the point of having an army when it's so weak?
    Who would bother launching a land invasion on us?
    Its peacekeeping operations are negligible.

    May as well disband it entirely and transfer its domestic duties to the Gardai.

    Do you think the Gards would be willing to do their jobs plus the stuff currently done by the Army without a massive pay increase? It would work out more expensive than the current situation.


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    #136
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Do you think the Gards would be willing to do their jobs plus the stuff currently done by the Army without a massive pay increase? It would work out more expensive than the current situation.

    Use the Garda reserves for the non-combat duties.


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    #137
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    What's the point of having an army when it's so weak?
    Who would bother launching a land invasion on us?
    Its peacekeeping operations are negligible.

    May as well disband it entirely and transfer its domestic duties to the Gardai.

    Just because other countries refute international law and disregard treaties does not excuse us from being a big help to the UN. We could be accused of swallowing a whole lot of rubbish but it would be a major mistake to sit back and allow ourselves to give in to the International community and leave ourselves totally defenseless. The world is full of vassal states as is.


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    #138
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    The judges give them two options prison or the army


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    #139
    discus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭discus


    A fair few guys I served with in the British Army worked with Irish Army personnel abroad, and always had great things to say about them. Apparently they shone on a few missions during the whole Kosovo/Bosnia debacle. My unit served out there and when other major nations decided it wasn't worth leaving an armoured vehicle, the Irish got out and about on the streets, not giving a ****. Left a lasting impression on my sgt's who were in a unit known for a lack of discipline/****s to give.

    They've done well on international competitions. I'm not gonna quote the facebook circle jerk about the Irish snipers smashing it during the Fort Benning snipers competition last year, that's been done to death. But lads I lived with had been beside the Irish Army component who entered the Cambrian Patrol competition 2014 during the "model pit" phase, and they impressed them. Not easily done, considering the commando/infantry/para rivalry that takes place every year at that thing.

    **** goes down on every UN tour that the Irish Army take part in. IEDs, ambushes, combination... but it never makes the Irish media unless it is a derogatory piece on PTSD. The Irish media need to stop dismissing the PDF, because in reality they are the harshest critics!


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    #140
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    Just because other countries refute international law and disregard treaties does not excuse us from being a big help to the UN. We could be accused of swallowing a whole lot of rubbish but it would be a major mistake to sit back and allow ourselves to give in to the International community and leave ourselves totally defenseless. The world is full of vassal states as is.

    Our air defense system is non-existent, we're dependent on the UK as it is. Any country with a real air force could bomb us with impunity.


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    #141
    discus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭discus


    Supernintento Chalmers wrote: »
    Bomb disposal, protecting cash in transit vans and anti-terrorist work can and is done by the Gardai.

    Our Army is a joke and nothing but a token gesture and a costly one but that.
    They should cut it down to about 50 people, for using in the Patrick's Day parade and the like.

    I generally enjoy reading posts like yours. It lets me know you've either a) never worked in any sort of employment or b) you are lacking such basic observation skills, that you cannot figure out what it takes to run a basic small number of employees with a sustainable logistics chain or management structure.


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    #142
    discus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭discus


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    Our air defense system is non-existent, we're dependent on the UK as it is. Any country with a real air force could bomb us with impunity.

    Warheads cost money, where's the cost:benefit analysis for bombing us? Go on, take a guess.


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    #143
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    discus wrote: »
    Warheads cost money, where's the cost:benefit analysis for bombing us? Go on, take a guess.

    Exactly, which is why don't need an Army. We're not worth invading.

    The only aspects of the defense forces we legitimately need are the navy and air ambulance service.


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    #144
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    >
    Pugzilla wrote: »
    Exactly, which is why don't need an Army. We're not worth invading.

    The only aspects of the defense forces we legitimately need are the navy and air ambulance service.

    Were needed in foreign ventures where lawlessness has broken out. They need Nations like us to go into those tough areas. If enough Nations did that we could have an International force that could go to places like Syria and held eradicate ISIS. Keep the peace between North and South Sudan and Chad. We'd have far less interference in local countries sovereignty if we did it that way. Instead the UN is seen as toothless so the heavyweights like Russia, America, France, Britain and China go in leading to disastrous situations and allegations of imperialism.

    So no the answer is not to get rid of the Irish army, they do a great job and deserve respect from their fellow citizens. I sure as hell would not be courageous to go to a place like Southern Lebanon and deal with Palestinians and Israeli's. It's a thankless job and they are separated from the loved ones back home, they are stuck in a strange land full of natives that hate each other and probably you.


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    #145
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    discus wrote: »

    **** goes down on every UN tour that the Irish Army take part in. IEDs, ambushes, combination... but it never makes the Irish media unless it is a derogatory piece on PTSD. The Irish media need to stop dismissing the PDF, because in reality they are the harshest critics!

    This is worth reading for the people slagging the army off. Good story that puts into perspective the sacrifices made on those seemingly "unimportant" peacekeeping missions.


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    #146
    Fukuyama
    Registered Users Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Fukuyama


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    Exactly, which is why don't need an Army. We're not worth invading.

    The only aspects of the defense forces we legitimately need are the navy and air ambulance service.

    Without an army that can operate under rules of war we would have been seriously threatened by the IRA. The police, for a number of reasons, can only ever fill in a quasi-military role. Just like a military can only fufill a stop-gap policing role during emergencies.

    It's very easy to say that the guards could do EOD and special forces. They could.

    What if the IRA had decided to hold some ground during the 80s because Irish government forces were so weak? Take over Shannon or Dublin airport to **** up Irish international trade and embarrass the government. They had high-caliber weapons, 50 cal machine guns, RPGs, IEDs, grenades, small mortars, improvised gas canister mortars etc... No police SWAT team could take on a small, paramilitary force like that.

    Instead, by having an army (underfunded and under-equipped) with artillery, machine guns, armored vehicles. surveillance drones, helicopters, javelin missile launchers and thousands of men who are more expendable (politically and operationally) than gardaí, it's not even an option for any terrorist/paramilitary force.

    Plus, we exist under the British born tradition of unarmed policing. It's very different to armed policing which isn't suited to Ireland for many reasons. Most people don't want that to change.

    Aside from dissuading internal aggression (and to some extent, external) the army also use equipment to rescue people, aid during national disasters and help during huge national events (visits of Obama/Queen and during Special Olympics). They perform great during UN missions (golan heights being most recent) and offer a final line of defense to protect the state from civil unrest. These kind of vehicles are not suited to policing. Guards driving all terrain trucks and armored jeeps does not make for good community relations (see NI PSNI land rovers). Trying to pawn this off on the civil defense would be unworkable and only lead to even more under use of resources.


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    #147
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Another very important task the army does is bomb disposal squad. They send in machines now but in this age the work of the bomb squad is even more necessary. What if the machine failed and we needed a manual job to perform? Someone with skills in explosives is vital.


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    #148
    222233
    Registered Users Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    I don't think anyone knows what they do, but I still appreciate it.


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    #149
    Jimlh86
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 260 ✭✭Jimlh86


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    Do you think the Gards would be willing to do their jobs plus the stuff currently done by the Army without a massive pay increase? It would work out more expensive than the current situation.

    Domestically what do they do? (Not a dig but a serious question) I know they do massive work come flood time but aside from that? The cash escorts have been withdrawn which is madness, Gardai are not properly trained to deploy from their vehicles when stationary! Would be sitting ducks for an automatic weapon

    Edit: sorry bomb disposal, a vital service and very much appreciated


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    #150
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    I haven't seen one thing on this thread apart from UN peacekeeping missions that couldn't be done cheaper by militarized police wing. Think French style gendarmerie.


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    #151
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I haven't seen one thing on this thread apart from UN peacekeeping missions that couldn't be done cheaper by militarized police wing.

    You've said that repeatedly, but without actually backing it up with the relevant costs and where savings might be made. I'd like to see some evidence, and I'd also contend that military and policing approaches and roles are disparate enough that, funnily enough, other countries aren't rolling them together en masse. Might be something to that...


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