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Apple refusing to unlock phone for FBI

24

Comments

  • #32
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,087 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    seamus wrote: »
    The US is very quickly becoming the police state that they derided the communists for, but at least people and companies seem to be recognising this and fighting back.

    When the Stasi were using a huge invasive system to track individuals - they weren't doing it for public safety and security, they were doing it for political reasons

    Faced with modern attacks like 911, etc with terrorists using modern systems - the response by most developed nations has been the same, try to use modern methods to monitor communications (limited) with goal of preventing/prosecuting such attacks

    The public response and sentiment has been predictable - "they are watching us", "it's 1984", "it's communism all over again"

    Apple, which relies on these customers, is simply pandering to these misconceptions (which aren't going to change any time soon). They are using this as a PR exercise.. and why not

    Police state? perhaps the FBI, CIA and DoHS should abandon all instrusive surveillance techniques ("spying") and wash their hands of any responsibility .. BUT should a large attack happen, the public mood will characteristically and whimsically change with the public demanding why those agencies didn't conduct enough surveillance to prevent such an attack - which is precisely what happened after 911

    The usual catch-22 of privacy vs security


  • #33
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Which is why I said one-off solution

    FBI gives the phone to Apple, they modify the program, they crack it, they don't reveal how, they give information to the FBI

    ... FBI finds another phone they would like a look at, they go back to Apple and say "sure didn't you do it on that other phone, what's one more between freinds, these guys were baddies as well", Apple creates another one off hack for this phone.

    ...FBI finds another phone they would like a look at, they go back to Apple and say "why not give us the code to do this ourselves, we understand this is taking up a lot of your time and your time would be better spent in coming up with ways to convince people to buy the iphone 9scxi or something".

    ...FBI go to Google/ Facebook/ Samsung/ whoever and say can we have a look at this persons account, they are baddies as well and look how helpfull Apple have been. What's Samsung, you don't want to give us the hack, oops I think we may just have to block you from selling your tat in the US.


  • #34
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,087 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    robinph wrote: »
    ... FBI finds another phone they would like a look at, they go back to Apple and say "sure didn't you do it on that other phone, what's one more between freinds, these guys were baddies as well", Apple creates another one off hack for this phone.

    ...FBI finds another phone they would like a look at, they go back to Apple and say "why not give us the code to do this ourselves, we understand this is taking up a lot of your time and your time would be better spent in coming up with ways to convince people to buy the iphone 9scxi or something".

    ...FBI go to Google/ Facebook/ Samsung/ whoever and say can we have a look at this persons account, they are baddies as well and look how helpfull Apple have been. What's Samsung, you don't want to give us the hack, oops I think we may just have to block you from selling your tat in the US.

    Exactly..

    The FBI does this as a once off each time = highly inefficient

    Apple provides FBI with a backdoor so they can access this info = public outcry

    What's the solution?


  • #35
    esforum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    robinph wrote: »
    ... FBI finds another phone they would like a look at, they go back to Apple and say "sure didn't you do it on that other phone, what's one more between freinds, these guys were baddies as well", Apple creates another one off hack for this phone.

    ...FBI finds another phone they would like a look at, they go back to Apple and say "why not give us the code to do this ourselves, we understand this is taking up a lot of your time and your time would be better spent in coming up with ways to convince people to buy the iphone 9scxi or something".

    ...FBI go to Google/ Facebook/ Samsung/ whoever and say can we have a look at this persons account, they are baddies as well and look how helpfull Apple have been. What's Samsung, you don't want to give us the hack, oops I think we may just have to block you from selling your tat in the US.

    warrants exist for a reason. Everyone sees to nicely skip that part, the FBI obtained a warrant from a Judge for THIS phone.

    How is an Iphone more important than an office, bank account, house or computer?

    Law enforcement have been using warrants to access suspects personal systems for decades without the 1984 inspired police state happening.


  • #36
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I'm currently in a government lab here in the states and I would find it extremely hard to believe they haven't got someone who can do it already.


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  • #37
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I'm currently in a government lab here in the states and I would find it extremely hard to believe they haven't got someone who can do it already.

    Yer man from McAfee said he'd do it. Said they'd have it done on 3 weeks or he'd eat his shoe on live tv.


  • #38
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Exactly..

    The FBI does this as a once off each time = highly inefficient

    Apple provides FBI with a backdoor so they can access this info = public outcry

    What's the solution?

    The FBI figure it out for themselves.


  • #39
    colossus-x
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭colossus-x


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Apple, which relies on these customers, is simply pandering to these misconceptions (which aren't going to change any time soon). They are using this as a PR exercise.. and why not

    It is the FBI who are using this case as a PR exercise. "By not providing back doors your helping terrorists".
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I'm currently in a government lab here in the states and I would find it extremely hard to believe they haven't got someone who can do it already.

    If Apple can do it then anyone can potentially do it thus the encryption is insecure.


  • #40
    valoren
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,611 ✭✭✭valoren


    Just bring it to the phone shop on Amiens St. They'll unlock it for €10.


  • #41
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,087 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    colossus-x wrote: »
    It is the FBI who are using this case as a PR exercise. "By not providing back doors your helping terrorists".

    Indeed, it also seems that some want to use this to criticize the FBI, even though they are in a **** position

    Its either unlock the phones on a case by case basis - which has it's own problems

    Or provide a back-door, which leads to the usual - "police state!!"

    Damned if they do their job, damned if they don't


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  • #42
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    presidential candidate Donald Trump has called for a boycott of Apple until the tech giant helps unlock the iPhone of one of the San Bernardino killers.
    Apple has clashed with the Justice Department (DoJ) over a court order forcing the company to help break the encryption on one of its phones.
    On Friday the DoJ called Apple's refusal a "marketing strategy".
    Apple said it will not help break into the the phone, citing wider privacy concerns for its users.
    The phone belonged to one of the two people who opened fire at an office event in San Bernardino, California, last December, killing 14
    Speaking at a campaign rally, Mr Trump said: "Boycott Apple until such time as they give that information."

    http://www.bbc.com/news/35618018

    I don't understand iOS computer phones myself so I can't really comment but I do find the story very interesting.


  • #43
    mass_debater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭mass_debater


    Apple now says that someone at the FBI screwed up and changed the passcode
    http://9to5mac.com/2016/02/19/apple-doj-response-fbi-backdoor/

    Also read elsewhere that when Apple do have access to backups if the phone is backed up online, it's this that was given before in other cases but this phone has no backup, backup was disabled which is what makes this case different


  • #44
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    colossus-x wrote: »
    It is the FBI who are using this case as a PR exercise. "By not providing back doors your helping terrorists".



    If Apple can do it then anyone can potentially do it thus the encryption is insecure.

    Apple can't do it. It's been wiped. Even without the wipe the probably couldn't do it. That's the nature of proper encryption.


  • #45
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Indeed, it also seems that some want to use this to criticize the FBI, even though they are in a **** position

    Its either unlock the phones on a case by case basis - which has it's own problems

    Or provide a back-door, which leads to the usual - "police state!!"

    Damned if they do their job, damned if they don't

    If there's a back door then your data isn't safe from anybody because that backdoor can be used by anybody.

    With the Touch ID the data is encrypted. A back door would make all data unsafe. There would be no point to the encryption.

    HTTPS probably thwarts some government investigations - do we want rid of that?


  • #46
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    TheChizler wrote: »
    As far as I know there's nothing stopping the FBI from de-soldering the flash chip, doing a raw copy of the encrypted contents as a backup (unless the flash prevents any access without a key? But I don't think that's the case), copying the backup to a new chip and connecting it to the phone with some pogo-connector arrangement to prevent damage due to multiple desoldering/reflows, and trying until the phone wipes the chip, and repeating the process until they get it. Sure it would take some time, but with a 4-digit key not too impossible. Unless there's some non-volatile register in the CPU that makes a note if the flash has been wiped.

    It's touchID isn't it? And I have a 10 letter passcode on my iPhone. As well as touchID. Not sure of the era of this phone.


  • #47
    BlibBlab
    Closed Accounts Posts: 145 ✭✭BlibBlab


    Seems like the kind of stuff Chinese companies are usually derided for in the media.
    esforum wrote: »
    warrants exist for a reason. Everyone sees to nicely skip that part, the FBI obtained a warrant from a Judge for THIS phone.

    How is an Iphone more important than an office, bank account, house or computer?

    Law enforcement have been using warrants to access suspects personal systems for decades without the 1984 inspired police state happening.

    Surely it's the FBI's fault if they can't open the phone? If someone had a safe they found in the house and they couldn't open it do they tell companies to make it easier to break safes?


  • #48
    Ghost Train
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,973 ✭✭✭✭Ghost Train


    TheChizler wrote: »
    As far as I know there's nothing stopping the FBI from de-soldering the flash chip, doing a raw copy of the encrypted contents as a backup (unless the flash prevents any access without a key? But I don't think that's the case), copying the backup to a new chip and connecting it to the phone with some pogo-connector arrangement to prevent damage due to multiple desoldering/reflows, and trying until the phone wipes the chip, and repeating the process until they get it. Sure it would take some time, but with a 4-digit key not too impossible. Unless there's some non-volatile register in the CPU that makes a note if the flash has been wiped.

    My understanding is the data is always encrypted with a very strong key. The 4 digit password protects the key. If you enter the wrong code a few times the key is wiped rendering the data useless

    What FBI would want is a way to brute force the code without any danger of decryption key getting wiped

    I think one of apples main selling points is the security so they don't want there to be backdoors or responsibility on their part to be able to decrypt


  • #49
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,537 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Ghost Train wrote: »
    My understanding is the data is always encrypted with a very strong key. The 4 digit password protects the key. If you enter the wrong code a few times the key is wiped rendering the data useless

    What FBI would want is a way to brute force the code without any danger of decryption key getting wiped

    I think one of apples main selling points is the security so they don't want there to be backdoors or responsibility on their part to be able to decrypt
    Ah ok I was wondering was that the case, a lot more difficult so.


  • #50
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,095 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Its different because its an older phone.

    With the 5S onwards the secure enclave was introduced which is in lay mans terms a little like a one way valve for data, it can only ever go in. If you send in the right data you get a little green light on top, wrong data a little red light. But the data thats in there can never be seen.

    On the 5C though its just a software restriction. The FBI could write their own replacement for iOS but that would take several years and millions to do, or they could try what they are and compel Apple to produce an "update" that allows them to brute the older stock. But once they have their hands on it the hats out of the box.


    Good man Tim, and Sindar.


  • #51
    mass_debater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭mass_debater


    San Bernardino County Calls the FBI Liars Over Terrorist's iCloud Account, now claiming that they reset the password under the direction of the FBI.

    http://gizmodo.com/san-bernardino-county-calls-the-fbi-liars-over-terroris-1760317923


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  • #52
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Very odd case. I've always operated on the belief that any telecommunications or computer since whenever was designed with a backdoor for government snooping. How has this ended up in the courts? Hasn't the US still got a secret national security court? Why is all this playing out in public? What are the " optics" and for whose benefit?

    Is Apple just looking for legal cover from a class action by pissed off customers over breach of contract over privacy?
    Is the US trying to re establish belief in communication systems so others will continue to use them when they are already cracked?
    Is it actually true that the level of encryption cannot be sidestepped or cracked by the NSA?

    Very odd case.


  • #53
    colossus-x
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭colossus-x


    realies wrote: »

    I don't understand iOS computer phones myself so I can't really comment but I do find the story very interesting.

    The issue is not specific to iOS. It relates to every computer device, whether tablet , pc, mac , whatever. A computer is a computer is a computer.
    Fleawuss wrote: »
    Very odd case. I've always operated on the belief that any telecommunications or computer since whenever was designed with a backdoor for government snooping. How has this ended up in the courts? Hasn't the US still got a secret national security court? Why is all this playing out in public? What are the " optics" and for whose benefit?

    Is Apple just looking for legal cover from a class action by pissed off customers over breach of contract over privacy?
    Is the US trying to re establish belief in communication systems so others will continue to use them when they are already cracked?
    Is it actually true that the level of encryption cannot be sidestepped or cracked by the NSA?

    Very odd case.

    It's not an 'odd' case whatsoever. It's just one example of the same old issue and that is can the government and security services have access to private communications between it's citizens. The problem is there is no way for 'just' the FBI to have that capability. The issue is if someone can then ANYONE can. There is NO WAY to limit that ability to the FBI alone. Backdoors , if made available, are available for anyone to take advantage off, including criminals.

    I don't know if anyone seen the recent James Bond move 'Spectre'. The premise was that the agents were to be decommissioned in lieu of a mass surveillance system. The idea being if one could watch and listen to what anyone ever said anywhere at any time then that would make life extremely simple for the security agencies. All you would need is have some forensic nurd sitting at a computer in an office analysing private communications.

    But the only way that would work is if the security services monitored EVERYONE. That's the problem. Apple are right to protect it's customers but I don't think they are just protecting their own customers. I think they are taking an ideological stand on this for everyone. And I commend them for that.


  • #54
    Red Kev
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,793 ✭✭✭Red Kev


    Sunnyisland wrote: »
    presidential candidate Donald Trump has called for a boycott of Apple until the tech giant helps unlock the iPhone of one of the San Bernardino killers.
    Apple has clashed with the Justice Department (DoJ) over a court order forcing the company to help break the encryption on one of its phones.
    On Friday the DoJ called Apple's refusal a "marketing strategy".
    Apple said it will not help break into the the phone, citing wider privacy concerns for its users.
    The phone belonged to one of the two people who opened fire at an office event in San Bernardino, California, last December, killing 14
    Speaking at a campaign rally, Mr Trump said: "Boycott Apple until such time as they give that information."

    http://www.bbc.com/news/35618018

    I don't understand iOS computer phones myself so I can't really comment but I do find the story very interesting.

    The irony is that Trump tweeted this call for a boycott of Apple ........from his own Apple iPhone.

    https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/700796528844103680


  • #55
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #56
    mass_debater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭mass_debater


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    It's pretty easy, tweeted via......see
    http://www.sixtwodigital.com/how-to-see-where-people-are-tweeting-from/


  • #57
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    How un-American ;)


  • #58
    Cienciano
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,140 ✭✭✭✭Cienciano


    Red Kev wrote: »
    The irony is that Trump tweeted this call for a boycott of Apple ........from his own Apple iPhone.

    https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/700796528844103680

    I can't imagine many people actually boycotting apple. Funny all the same, his tweet is basically an ad for apple


  • #59
    colossus-x
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭colossus-x


    Cienciano wrote: »
    I can't imagine many people actually boycotting apple. Funny all the same, his tweet is basically an ad for apple

    I boycotted Apple when I went to their website and on the front page they said this whatever device had "Technology that hasn't been invented yet".

    Not a word of a lie. Wish I took a screen shot.


  • #60
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,624 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    How un-American ;)

    yeah, not using a chinese made product, how dare he!


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  • #61
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,775 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Tim Cook has come out and said that Apple are working on encryption that even Apple can not access.
    So in the future Apple can simply say 'We are unable to access the phone', while making it's customers know their phones are secure.


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