peoples sense of entitlement in Ireland

DeanAustin · 20-02-2016 10:15AM

I'm very lucky in that I earn a good wage. I've also been lucky in life that my parents, while not wealthy by any means, pushed me to get myself educated. I appreciate that not everyone gets that sort of support and that can be the difference between having a good life and one that's not so good.

I work for a US multinational. They could up sticks tomorrow if the tax rate or something else changes that suits them and if that happens, I won't get another job earning the same money (if I get a job at all). I'm always grateful that we have a good support structure for people out of work. There are chancers on the dole, I know a few, but I believe that most people on it are genuine.

However, there is a huge sense of entitlement in this country and we blame the politicians for everything wrong. I'm getting fed up of the "We need massive change and revolution" mantra around this election. It's bollox on two counts.

One, it won't ever happen in one big bang. They tried it in the US when Obama promised the world and 8 years later, things are pretty much the same. The Greeks were going to take on the EU and win. They shut down their entire country for a few weeks and lost the fight badly.

Secondly, we have a great country. We really do. It's not perfect. The health system is poor, taxation is probably too high, there is a housing crisis but I look around at our standard of living and it's pretty high. I've a mate on the dole and one in a relatively low paying job, both with kids, and they have a decent standard of living. The fella on the dole is educating himself, the other one is off on a holiday to Asia for 3 weeks. I believe that Enda is a fundamentally decent man and I think that him and his lot are doing a good job. This talk about the need for "massive change" is just empty rhetoric that will always appeal to a section of every society.

I spend a couple of weeks in Asia every few months. I visit a city where the population is 12 million and 6 million are unemployed. The government don't give them a cent. Last time I was there, I went to a war memorial in the city centre. It was manicured and maintained to within an inch of its life. There must be millions spent on it every year. On the edge of it was a slum where you had families living in squalor and on a few dollars a day. The government don't help them one bit. There's something wrong when you're spending millions on the dead and not a cent on the living a few yards away. That's proper injustice so it sticks in my throat a bit when I hear people moaning in this country about how bad we have it.

ThunbergsAreGo · 20-02-2016 10:16AM

smurgen wrote: »

It's amazing.it's like the attack on social welfare is being exactly rolled out in Ireland like it was in England by the tories.the tories just wanted to portray anyone receiving social welfare as a waste of space and pushed phrases like benefit scrounger into the mindset of the average joe.

We are a wealthy country and I for one want to see everyone living above the poverty line.a country should be measured by how it treats it's ppores citizens. As someone doing well for himself I don't care about paying extra tax as long as I know society as a whole is benefitting.I don't want to see massive inequality in Ireland.what's the point of owning a mansion if you have to drive through slums to get to it?

The problem is you can give and give to a lot of people and they will take and take without doing anything to change circumstances. Why work when you can be on the dole and not be much worse.

I don't think anyone has a problem with those in genuine need, be it recently lost a job or long term verified sickness. It's those that contribute nothing and give nothing back but instead want more.

Sam Kade · 20-02-2016 10:17AM

Lights On wrote: »

€20 a week for food? You'd spend that alone on some good meat for the week. It's good to know you can have a nice retirement after you've spent your life working :rolleyes:

On a budget

arayess · 20-02-2016 10:21AM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

God forbid anything like this happens but let's say that whilst you're walking down to Donnybrook Fair this morning for your croissant, frappucino and Irish Times you get hit by a car breaking the lights as you're crossing at the pedestrian lights.

You lose your job as you're in hospital for months.

You think you deserve to die for that???

apparently he does :rolleyes:

However I'm guessing his dad will set up an allowance for him till he gets back on his feet, although with that allowance he may have to let the gardener go..OH NOES....

bobbysands81 · 20-02-2016 10:22AM

Shrap wrote: »

Do you never, ever wonder WHY you only ever hear from the "people giving out about how they want more", and not anyone saying thank you for supporting me through hard times? When you open a newspaper for the latest shock/horror story about the single mum of 10 on 60,000e a year complaining how the fuel allowance doesn't stretch now she's brought the kiddies to Spain for a week.....you fall for it hook, line and sinker.

Doesn't ever occur to you that reports of people who are very grateful and appreciative don't sell newspapers, no? :rolleyes:

So for what it's worth (and I'm thinking not very much in a thread where someone actually advocated putting families on the dole in camps, not houses...) THANK YOU.

When I separated from my abusive husband and myself and the two boys were supported since then to live in our own house and get an education, while I work to better my circumstances and find employment (always difficult when your child has special needs and I have to be at the school at the drop of a hat, often twice a week), I had always wanted to apologise to someone specifically for pissing them off by this not being India and me not ending up on the streets. Oh, and thank them for their taxes that enable me to be up here online so that my kids actually might have the same opportunities as kids from employed people to become employable and employed themselves.

I am genuinely grateful actually, but you have come across as such a monumental ..eh..."person who lacks any empathy" (for want of a better word) that it's been difficult to sound like I mean it.

Oh, and inmy64 - your thread is a wonderful example of exactly what a sense of entitlement means, but not in the way you think......

What a fantastic post!

Well done Shrap, you sound like a fantastic mother.

Ave Sodalis · 20-02-2016 10:23AM

Just like the hundreds of other dole threads (seriously, can we get something more original by now??), I would like the point out that during the boom, there was no mention of welfare or entitlement. It's funny that when there's plenty of jobs, there's no mention of those not working. When the country goes into a recession, there's uproar that there's people not working. I'm not sure certain people have any notion as to what a recession is, or anything about the current economic state. It's almost like they've just believed the propoganda bullcrap in the papers like sheep (by almost, I mean exactly).

As for medical cards, I would be more than happy to pay extra tax in order for everyone in the country to get medical cards. The two things in a country that should be touched last in terms of cuts is education and health care.

And that's my final word on this thread because, undoubtedly, it's gonna end up that exact same way as all the rest of them.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 20-02-2016 10:24AM

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Explain.

You said yourself that you can eat well cheaply. Is it not reasonable that if someone doesn't make provisions for their future, then they shouldn't expect to be dining on fillet steak?

The poster states that someone who has worked all their life should be able to eat good meat. Yes they should, if they can afford it. If not, then they need to live within their means - just as you do. What is so shockng about that?

Aw come on kid. I am probably the most anti welfare poster on boards. I have absolutely no time for long term dolers, mickey money hunnies popping out kids to get the biggest house and people who sit back never trying to better their lives but instead whinge about how much the government owes them a living despite never contributing a cent to society and having everything else handed to them while the rest of us get out and work and try fend for ourselves and the only help we have is helping empty our pockets.

That said - Jesus. Old people are old people. The disabled, the genuinely sick and the elderly. They're so vulnerable and we should absolutely without a doubt as a society ensure they are fed, warm, have somewhere safe to live and aren't without essentials. A balanced healthy diet, esb, warm clothes and heating.
Others can change their own situation. The vulnerable cannot.

Mint Sauce · 20-02-2016 10:30AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Hard for me to appreciate this as I am English and we have the NHS there..so used to it all being " free" ie we paid when we were working in NI stamps. But when I hear folk on the borderline saying they cannot afford to go to the doctor? Then they get sicker. Living on the dole is not easy but many countries only have folk on that for a time then it gets cut.

Having been bought up in England I can kind of see both sides. We both paid our National Insurance and were able to benifit of the services of the NHS, and whilst we pay PRSI here, we still need to make a payment for our health services, unless on benifit.

In the UK, you pay your Council Tax, which pays for your local services, policing, firebrigade, GPs, Bins, etc, etc, etc. Government here brings in the LPT, yet we still have to pay for our local services, our bins, fire brigade call outs, etc, etc.

So putting aside social welfare, and I know we cant compare our selves to the UK, but when we look at what we are paying, it does make you question your entitlements just slightly.

arayess · 20-02-2016 10:34AM

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]
Well done,, always broke me down in the UK when I had to fight and wait for benefits like that. Has he talked to Citizens Info by the way? I cheered when I reached pension age as I no longer had to "prove" anything..the stress adds to the illness.

thanks. unfortunately i'm not able to be a charity ,so she was working while sick and it wasn't doing her much good at the time.
she is recovered now and moved on to better things.

The Backwards Man · 20-02-2016 10:37AM

I'm working and I'd rarely spend more than twenty euro a week on meat and I'd never spend more than fifty a week on my food shop as a whole. I'd have steak a couple of days a week too.

I'd be as much against social welfare bashing as the next person, but no one is 'entitled' to anything at the end of the day, and we're damn lucky to live somewhere and sometime that we get as much as we do

Eugene Norman · 20-02-2016 10:40AM

The real problem with Ireland is that contribution doesn't buy you many benefits. Except lack of means testing which is meaningless as the inter generational unemployed (or those on disability) don't have any. Other social democratic countries give you a percentage of your salary on unemployment if you pay in, some pay the mortgage, many protect your salary up to 70% if you are taken ill, there are generous paternity or maternity leave, and you get free health care.

This is why some here said our payments weren't generous - that's because contributory payments in other countries are far more generous than non-contributory.

Here the more you pay in the less you get. In fact private sector workers who had to emigrate during the bust probably won't get the full pension unlike non-contributors because you need to average 48 payments every year in this country since you started work.

In other words despite the name of one of the taxes, this isn't an insurance scheme.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 20-02-2016 10:45AM

DeanAustin wrote: »

I'm very lucky in that I earn a good wage. I've also been lucky in life that my parents, while not wealthy by any means, pushed me to get myself educated. I appreciate that not everyone gets that sort of support and that can be the difference between having a good life and one that's not so good.

I work for a US multinational. They could up sticks tomorrow if the tax rate or something else changes that suits them and if that happens, I won't get another job earning the same money (if I get a job at all). I'm always grateful that we have a good support structure for people out of work. There are chancers on the dole, I know a few, but I believe that most people on it are genuine.

However, there is a huge sense of entitlement in this country and we blame the politicians for everything wrong. I'm getting fed up of the "We need massive change and revolution" mantra around this election. It's bollox on two counts.

One, it won't ever happen in one big bang. They tried it in the US when Obama promised the world and 8 years later, things are pretty much the same. The Greeks were going to take on the EU and win. They shut down their entire country for a few weeks and lost the fight badly.

Secondly, we have a great country. We really do. It's not perfect. The health system is poor, taxation is probably too high, there is a housing crisis but I look around at our standard of living and it's pretty high. I've a mate on the dole and one in a relatively low paying job, both with kids, and they have a decent standard of living. The fella on the dole is educating himself, the other one is off on a holiday to Asia for 3 weeks. I believe that Enda is a fundamentally decent man and I think that him and his lot are doing a good job. This talk about the need for "massive change" is just empty rhetoric that will always appeal to a section of every society.

I spend a couple of weeks in Asia every few months. I visit a city where the population is 12 million and 6 million are unemployed. The government don't give them a cent. Last time I was there, I went to a war memorial in the city centre. It was manicured and maintained to within an inch of its life. There must be millions spent on it every year. On the edge of it was a slum where you had families living in squalor and on a few dollars a day. The government don't help them one bit. There's something wrong when you're spending millions on the dead and not a cent on the living a few yards away. That's proper injustice so it sticks in my throat a bit when I hear people moaning in this country about how bad we have it.

While I agree with most of your post -

1 - the is no way Obama's election coups be called 'massive change' or 'revolution'.

2 - is comparing Ireland to third world Asian cities the only easy it can be made to look good?

thattequilagirl · 20-02-2016 10:55AM

Water tax doesn't bother me. This whole "we already pay for it" argument doesn't make sense. If I pay a certain amount for groceries every month but it's not enough to source them and transport them home, I'll have to look at finding a different way to pay for them.

USC is a bitch.

When I moved home, I signed on for a period of five weeks. I actually has my new job before they processed the claim. People complain incessantly about Jobsbridge, but I think it's a great way of getting long-term unemployed back to work. Social welfare isn't just free money and nor should it be. Now fair enough the Jobsbridge system has been abused by certain employers, but it is not as many claim slave labour. It's a paid internship. I think it's entitled of people to want their Jobseeker's Allowance week in week out if they're not willing to participate in these schemes.

As for homeless families in hotels, it's very sad. If it was me, I'd sooner move down the country than raise kids in that environment. Or I'd work every hour under the sun to find the money to keep them in their homes. People have to have a certain amount of responsibility for the situations they find themselves in.

The Backwards Man · 20-02-2016 11:02AM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Water tax doesn't bother me. This whole "we already pay for it" argument doesn't make sense. If I pay a certain amount for groceries every month but it's not enough to source them and transport them home, I'll have to look at finding a different way to pay for them.

USC is a bitch.

When I moved home, I signed on for a period of five weeks. I actually has my new job before they processed the claim. People complain incessantly about Jobsbridge, but I think it's a great way of getting long-term unemployed back to work. Social welfare isn't just free money and nor should it be. Now fair enough the Jobsbridge system has been abused by certain employers, but it is not as many claim slave labour. It's a paid internship. I think it's entitled of people to want their Jobseeker's Allowance week in week out if they're not willing to participate in these schemes.

As for homeless families in hotels, it's very sad. If it was me, I'd sooner move down the country than raise kids in that environment. Or I'd work every hour under the sun to find the money to keep them in their homes. People have to have a certain amount of responsibility for the situations they find themselves in.

You'd make a great politician.

DeanAustin · 20-02-2016 11:04AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

While I agree with most of your post -

1 - the is no way Obama's election coups be called 'massive change' or 'revolution'.

2 - is comparing Ireland to third world Asian cities the only easy it can be made to look good?

I agree on Obama. But he did sell his campaign on rhetoric of 'hope' and 'change'. That's similar to some of the stuff people are spouting in Ireland.

On the second point, it isn't. But I think Ireland compares very well to most countries. Things can be improved for sure but we do some things in Ireland very well and some of that is attributable to our politicians and people.

The point with Asia was just to illustrate what an unjust society really is. But take the US. I've been to several US cities and the inequality is shocking. There are homeless people all over the place and, truth be told, most I've seen are black. If you end up out of work or in hospital without health care in the US, good luck to you because no one will be helping you.

We have problems but I don't believe that they are severe in comparison to much of the world (the genuinely poor countries) or even the greatest superpower (USA).

smurgen · 20-02-2016 11:08AM

I was brought up by my mother after my father walked out of the household.my morther raised me and my sister and when we were old enough to look after ourselves she was able to go back to work. I went to college and stated there for 6 years.I now work in a bank and pay my taxes.it's my debt to society.it's how the system works.if it wasn't for social welfare we wouldn't have made it to where we were today.

osarusan · 20-02-2016 11:14AM

OP now.

Sam Kade · 20-02-2016 11:15AM

smurgen wrote: »

I was brought up by my mother after my father walked out of the household.my morther raised me and my sister and when we were old enough to look after ourselves she was able to go back to work. I went to college and stated there for 6 years.I now work in a bank and pay my taxes.it's my debt to society.it's how the system works.if it wasn't for social welfare we wouldn't have made it to where we were today.

But not everyone will do that so the system doesn't work.

suicide_circus · 20-02-2016 11:16AM

Ask yourself, where do you want to live; a country where the poor are left to fend for themselves and the rich keep getting richer or a country which tries to spread the wealth a bit and everyone is housed, fed and looked after? I know my answer.
The unfortunate consequence is that we in Ireland have generations of families who are entirely dependent on the state and other people's money - adult babies who are completely incapable of providing for themselves and some of whom are obnoxiously self entitled, devoid of any self awareness and who revel in their parasitic lifestyle. If we treat people in this way we need to impose things like personal responsibility, boundaries, consequences but these are words that don't sit well with us.

Our main problem in this country is essential that we want Scandinavian and Germanic type public services and infrastructure while paying American type taxes. Self entitlement, again.
Take Austria (was there last week on a visit), anyone earning €51k+ is paying 50% income tax...pretty steep....but, anyone who goes to hospital will be seen IMMEDIATELY in world class conditions, there are no waiting lists, there's no one sleeping on trollies, the road network is perfection, public transport runs like clockwork, the smallest shack down the sticks has high spec broadband, the elderly are cared for in their community, there are no waiting lists or travelling 100s of km for essential therapies/treatments/consultants.

Dunno about you guys but I'd gladly pay for this quality of services.

thattequilagirl · 20-02-2016 11:17AM

Sam Kade wrote: »

But not everyone will do that so the system doesn't work.

If "Is everyone going to do this?" is the criteria for whether something works or not, nothing works.

smurgen · 20-02-2016 11:19AM

Sam Kade wrote: »

But not everyone will do that so the system doesn't work.

Is this meant to be a response?

thattequilagirl · 20-02-2016 11:20AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Ask yourself, where do you want to live; a country where the poor are left to fend for themselves and the rich keep getting richer or a country which tries to spread the wealth a bit and everyone is housed, fed and looked after? I know my answer.
The unfortunate consequence is that we in Ireland have generations of families who are entirely dependent on the state and other people's money - adult babies who are completely incapable of providing for themselves and some of whom are obnoxiously self entitled, devoid of any self awareness and who revel in their parasitic lifestyle. If we treat people in this way we need to impose things like personal responsibility, boundaries, consequences but these are words that don't sit well with us.

Our main problem in this country is essential that we want Scandinavian and Germanic type public services and infrastructure while paying American type taxes. Self entitlement, again.
Take Austria (was there last week on a visit), anyone earning €51k+ is paying 50% income tax...pretty steep....but, anyone who goes to hospital will be seen IMMEDIATELY in world class conditions, there are no waiting lists, there's no one sleeping on trollies, the road network is perfection, public transport runs like clockwork, the smallest shack down the sticks has high spec broadband, the elderly are cared for in their community, there are no waiting lists or travelling 100s of km for essential therapies/treatments/consultants.

Dunno about you guys but I'd gladly pay for this quality of services.

What is the incentive for people to earn more than 50k there?

Chucktastic · 20-02-2016 11:21AM

The megarich in Ireland are are every bit as greedy as the poor. More so if anything. I've made a **** of my bank/development company, making millions for myself in the process?
Bailout please.

Chucktastic · 20-02-2016 11:22AM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

What is the incentive for people to earn more than 50k there?

Because you get more money?

freedominacup · 20-02-2016 11:23AM

Sir Oxman wrote: »

As for "socialist" paradise? We had that a few years back when the biggest transfer of wealth (social welfare for the mega-rich) happened.

I'd consider myself a capitalist free marketeer but this screws the argument every time. I know plenty of small business people who lost everything while this particular piece of socialism was playing out. Until some way is found to undo this any bleating about welfare scroungers rings hollow. It's hardly walking around money compared to what we had to find to put a safety net in place for the mega rich.

smurgen · 20-02-2016 11:23AM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

What is the incentive for people to earn more than 50k there?

Pride in your job.jesus wept.we've become so Americanised.everything has to a monetary value.I want to try make it to avp and vp level at work.I have no idea how much those guys are on but to be at that level holds prestige with me.it's an achiement.

thattequilagirl · 20-02-2016 11:24AM

Chucktastic wrote: »

Because you get more money?

Taxed at 51% it's hardly worth your while.

thattequilagirl · 20-02-2016 11:27AM

smurgen wrote: »

Pride in your job.jesus wept.we've become so Americanised.everything has to a monetary value.I want to try make it to avp and vp level at work.I have no idea how much those guys are on but to be at that level hold prestige with me.it's an achiement.

Fair enough. Do you know how many hours people at that level work? If I'm going to pay 51% income tax on the money I make from that promotion, I'd rather stay at a certain level and have my evenings and weekends. It's naive to want to achieve things purely for a sense of prestige if you don't get the compensation and lifestyle to back it up.

Graces7 · 20-02-2016 11:29AM

JustTheOne wrote: »

When tax payers money is been spent in such an enormous way they have a right to question it.

You never hear anyone saying thank you to the tax payer for helping me have a roof over my head and a decent life.

Never any appreciation.

Its always just people giving out about how they want more.

I express thankfulness frequently and seek no more than I have. As a historian the awareness of the workhouse remains clear. But yes folk grumble. Not just SW recipients but yes, YOU are grumbling now!

Giving out seems to be a very Irish thing..

The Backwards Man · 20-02-2016 11:29AM

smurgen wrote: »

Pride in your job.jesus wept.we've become so Americanised.everything has to a monetary value.I want to try make it to avp and vp level at work.I have no idea how much those guys are on but to be at that level hold prestige with me.it's an achiement.

The SF finance department has joined the thread

The key to a happy life is getting the work life balance right, the best return for the least hassle. Anybody who works harder and longer for a lower return is an idiot

peoples sense of entitlement in Ireland

Comments