Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

its_phil · 17-02-2016 02:34PM

rsh118 wrote: »

It would be madness not to keep Healy here. For those who say McGrath is ahead (fair enough) what happens when he picks up a dead leg? Or does himself some other injury? If definitely rather pull an expensive Healy off the bench than rely on no. 3!

If he is negotiating for a national contract then the quality of supply and demand is not working in his favour.

That figure to stay in Irish rugby and possibly be on the bench is outrageous.

rsh118 · 17-02-2016 02:35PM

stephen_n wrote: »

No.3 has looked quite good so far, so has No.4. Having said that, I'd be very disappointed to see him leave, form is temporary and he is world class when on form.

That's only natural at a big, forwards-oriented team like Leinster. A lot of us lesser provinces envy you up front. Healy is welcome at Ravenhill if things aren't going right at The negotiating table!

17-02-2016 02:42PM

stephen_n wrote: »

No.3 has looked quite good so far, so has No.4. Having said that, I'd be very disappointed to see him leave, form is temporary and he is world class when on form.

and #5...

LH IQ Players in no particular order

Callum Black, Kyle McCall, Denis Buckley, James Cronin, David Kilcoyne, Jack McGrath, Cian Healy, Ed Byrne, Tom Court, Jack O Connell, Finlay Bealham, Michael Bent

Healy at the top of his game is a better player than any of them. But we've been waiting for him to get back there for a long long time!

If he'd been back playing rugby in October and stayed injury free up to now, peaking in form, this might be a totally different discussion. But he hasn't, and he isn't, and so the discussion is different.

17-02-2016 02:43PM

This may have been covered but reading from multiple reliable people on PR the IRFU wanted to force Moore to move to Munster, would only offer him decent wages and the three year contract on that basis. He's off to Wasps, Leinster get screwed.

stephen_n · 17-02-2016 02:43PM

rsh118 wrote: »

That's only natural at a big, forwards-oriented team like Leinster. A lot of us lesser provinces envy you up front. Healy is welcome at Ravenhill if things aren't going right at The negotiating table!

It's funny seeing Leinster referred to as that

He'd be welcome anywhere he goes but at €600k+ I doubt it would be the Kingspan.

awec · 17-02-2016 02:44PM

Bit of a subject change, but Dave O'Connor in the Leinster academy is listed as only 6'3" in height.

Is he really a lock, or is this a mistake on the Leinster site?

Rigor Mortis · 17-02-2016 02:48PM

The involvement of the IRFU in all of this is overstated. To me the priorities should and do go like this

Does the player want to stay with his club?

if not, what Club does the player want to go to.

End of story

Does the club want to keep the player,

if not, is the player willing to move to another Irish club

If so, which one is the best fit

End of story

I like the idea of keeping players in the country, but it is ultimately up to players where they go.

Do I think this is a good move for Henshaw, yes because ultimately he is moving to a better team

Do I think this is a good move for Ireland, yes because he will play more often with his likely Irish playing partners

Do I think this is a good move for Leinster, I think that is less clear. Given the choice between an NIQ like TEO who will play regularly and another international who will be away for a chunk of the season i think its a tough call.

rsh118 · 17-02-2016 02:50PM

stephen_n wrote: »

It's funny seeing Leinster referred to as that He'd be welcome anywhere he goes but at €600k+ I doubt it would be the Kingspan.

We'll offer him the same number but with a pound sign in front!

On a more serious note, the times they are a-changin'. The provinces are swapping roles are a fearsome rate!

CMOTDibbler · 17-02-2016 02:54PM

its_phil wrote: »

If he is negotiating for a national contract then the quality of supply and demand is not working in his favour.

That figure to stay in Irish rugby and possibly be on the bench is outrageous.

A prop on the bench is as much an asset as one on the field. It's a 23 man game now, especially in the front row. But even saying that Healy isn't at his best is missing the point that his best was enough to completely negate Slimani during the world cup. We don't have too many props currently capable of doing that,

Tarf1234 · 17-02-2016 03:13PM

awec wrote: »

Bit of a subject change, but Dave O'Connor in the Leinster academy is listed as only 6'3" in height.

Is he really a lock, or is this a mistake on the Leinster site?

Would have thought he was taller then that from seeing him

Zzippy · 17-02-2016 03:21PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

They don't but it's preferred by all concerned. It can go the other way too. Look at how Luke Fitz was dealt with to the point where he was limping (literally) along with six month contracts from Leinster.
You can't know what subsidies Leinster are actually on and whether this deal will change them. It could actually be the same money paid out a different way. In other words a net zero gain.

It could be, but that would be a new departure AFAIK. Central contracts have always been separate to provincial budget allocations. And Leinster only offering Fitz short-term contracts is not an indictment of the system, it's an indictment of Leinster branch management for how they treated him. I suppose it is a business after all...

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Nobody is looking for sympathy. And you are actually misrepresenting the situation grossly here. We all know that Henshaw wanted to move. For personal reasons as much as any other. It's been an open secret for over a year.

If anything, you are grossly misunderstanding what I said. I actually said exactly that about Henshaw, that it was his choice and personal reasons came into it. This isn't about Henshaw, it's about the inequality of allowing one province to rack up more and more central contracts at the expense of other provinces. I don't begrudge Robbie at all, wish him the best at Leinster and hope he's an absolute star for you. Maybe Leinster wouldn't have been so keen to take him if they weren't getting him for free though.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

AFAIK, the central contract situation has changed radically since Sexton left for Paris. Now the provinces can top up the pay if the IRFU don't want to go any further and it's much more of a shared cost than it was in the past. Bottom line is we don't know how much the IRFU are actually paying Henshaw and how much Leinster are. We also don't know if Connacht will be getting some sort of subsidy to make up for any loss.

No we don't, but we know a bit about the central contract system and how it works, and we can make educated guesses. What's the point of a discussion forum if we can't actually discuss things and debate opinions?

Tox56 · 17-02-2016 03:22PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Not necessarily at all. Leinster get a certain budget allocation from IRFU. They also have their own resources from sponsorships, ticket sales, jersey sales and other comemrcial arrangements. They also tap in to private benefactors to top up player's wages, as they do with Sexton. None of that money comes out of the IRFU budget. If they have to pay Henshaw from those sources, all the IRFU have to pay is the match appearance fees, so it's a net gain, not a net loss. There's also more money in the central pot to be distributed around the provinces.

That's fair enough for their existing players. But when a player moves to the province and an additional central contract is awarded to Leinster, that just increases the disparity in funding between the provinces and promotes drift of international players to Leinster. If the number of central contracts at Leinster was capped they could still retain their existing internationals, but not benefit from being able to attract players from other provinces at zero cost to themselves.

How does the current system promote drifting of international players to Leinster anymore than any other province? Every Leinster player on a central contract currently has been produced by Leinster. Henshaw will be the exception, not the rule. If central contract worthy players start moving to Leinster on an even somewhat regular basis I could see the need for a cap like this, but this is one guy, and theres hardly any other possible moves like it on the horizon

If your proposed solution is setting a cap on the number of central contracts Leinster will have, you are basically punishing Leinster for producing so many top class players. First, what is the number? A completely arbitrary one? And second, is it the same number for all the provinces, regardless of how many "star players" they have ? And third, even if you decide on a number, is there no flexibility at all? If Leinster produce another batch of homegrown "star international players" but have filled their quota of central contracts, do they have to basically just sit and watch these players leave for England/France because they cant compete with those clubs monetarily?

Presumably the central contract is a preferable set-up for the player themselves too, because as you say players can chose to turn them down if they want. So, in the scenario you propose where the IRFU tell Henshaw he only gets a central contract if he stays at Connacht, even though he (presumably) made it clear he wants to leave, Henshaw is getting shafted for no real reason, thats hardly fair on the man himself.

Neil3030 · 17-02-2016 03:23PM

Zaylee Itchy Sealskin wrote: »

This may have been covered but reading from multiple reliable people on PR the IRFU wanted to force Moore to move to Munster, would only offer him decent wages and the three year contract on that basis. He's off to Wasps, Leinster get screwed.

That can't be true. By definition it violates the policy of provinces not outbidding one another.

Clegg · 17-02-2016 03:40PM

Dooley, Adam Byrne and Tom Daly are all on one year deals.

Hopefully Dooley comes through for us. Need a new loose head waiting in the wings.

case885 · 17-02-2016 03:44PM

Neil3030 wrote:

That can't be true. By definition it violates the policy of provinces not outbidding one another.

Central contract I'd imagine so it was the IRFU doing the negotiating.

Zzippy · 17-02-2016 03:51PM

Tox56 wrote: »

How does the current system promote drifting of international players to Leinster anymore than any other province? Every Leinster player on a central contract currently has been produced by Leinster. Henshaw will be the exception, not the rule. If central contract worthy players start moving to Leinster on an even somewhat regular basis I could see the need for a cap like this, but this is one guy, and theres hardly any other possible moves like it on the horizon

If your proposed solution is setting a cap on the number of central contracts Leinster will have, you are basically punishing Leinster for producing so many top class players. First, what is the number? A completely arbitrary one? And second, is it the same number for all the provinces, regardless of how many "star players" they have ? And third, even if you decide on a number, is there no flexibility at all? If Leinster produce another batch of homegrown "star international players" but have filled their quota of central contracts, do they have to basically just sit and watch these players leave for England/France because they cant compete with those clubs monetarily?

Presumably the central contract is a preferable set-up for the player themselves too, because as you say players can chose to turn them down if they want. So, in the scenario you propose where the IRFU tell Henshaw he only gets a central contract if he stays at Connacht, even though he (presumably) made it clear he wants to leave, Henshaw is getting shafted for no real reason, thats hardly fair on the man himself.

I did mention central contracts for players you develop yourself. I'd be happy with an increase in central contracts at a province if it meant they were developing more international players than they are losing through retirement, etc. But not in favour of signing players in to be on a central contract. It may not promote drift towards Leinster exclusively, but it certainly promotes drift away from Connacht. Maybe IRFU, if they are serious about four strong provinces, need to offer more to players of that level to stay at Connacht. After all, if Dublin is such a draw with the higher earning potential from sponsorship in a bigger market, they need to tell Leinster they can only offer this amount, but offer the player more to stay. As it is, Leinster being based in Dublin have a distinct advantage even if they can only offer the same amount.

As for the contract itself, "presumably" probably depends on the player's circumstances. SOB chose not to take one for good reason I "presume". No player should be guaranteed a central contract. If your employer doesn't want you to move, they are perfectly within their right to offer you different terms and conditions at a different site.

Anyway, as it's the Leinster thread, I don't expect anyone here to agree that the system is weighted unfairly, but that's my 2c.

17-02-2016 03:52PM

I hope that wasn't done to Moore and can appreciate why he left if so.

errlloyd · 17-02-2016 03:59PM

Clegg wrote: »

Dooley, Adam Byrne and Tom Daly are all on one year deals.

Hopefully Dooley comes through for us. Need a new loose head waiting in the wings.

Porter is much talked about.

17-02-2016 03:59PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Anyway, as it's the Leinster thread, I don't expect anyone here to agree that the system is weighted unfairly, but that's my 2c.

I agree with some of what you are saying, I just disagree that it's intentionally unfair. Being in a Leinster thread doesn't automatically mean we're incapable of being objective and a lack of objectivity is certainly not behind what the majority of posters are saying.

Hagz · 17-02-2016 04:06PM

awec wrote: »

Bit of a subject change, but Dave O'Connor in the Leinster academy is listed as only 6'3" in height.

Is he really a lock, or is this a mistake on the Leinster site?

He is really a lock and he is really 6'3.

Bazzo · 17-02-2016 04:07PM

Hagz wrote: »

He is really a lock and he is really 6'3.

Yeah it's not that unusual to have 6'3" locks at that age, it tends to be fractionally on the short side for a senior lock but it's still not out of the question.

former total · 17-02-2016 04:14PM

Zzippy wrote: »

I did mention central contracts for players you develop yourself. I'd be happy with an increase in central contracts at a province if it meant they were developing more international players than they are losing through retirement, etc. But not in favour of signing players in to be on a central contract. It may not promote drift towards Leinster exclusively, but it certainly promotes drift away from Connacht. Maybe IRFU, if they are serious about four strong provinces, need to offer more to players of that level to stay at Connacht. After all, if Dublin is such a draw with the higher earning potential from sponsorship in a bigger market, they need to tell Leinster they can only offer this amount, but offer the player more to stay. As it is, Leinster being based in Dublin have a distinct advantage even if they can only offer the same amount.

As for the contract itself, "presumably" probably depends on the player's circumstances. SOB chose not to take one for good reason I "presume". No player should be guaranteed a central contract. If your employer doesn't want you to move, they are perfectly within their right to offer you different terms and conditions at a different site.

Anyway, as it's the Leinster thread, I don't expect anyone here to agree that the system is weighted unfairly, but that's my 2c.

I'd be reluctant to assume that Henshaw is moving for sponsorship reasons. He already features heavily in any number of marketing materials. He's a big fish in a small pond at Connacht (marketing wise), that won't be the case at Leinster so unless he moves on to Sexton/BOD/POC superstar status, it won't make too much difference.

Chances are he wants to play for a better team and have a better chance of winning medals.

As for offering a better deal to stay at Connacht, well, then you're looking at p*ssing off a key player. Henshaw says "I want to move to Leinster", IRFU say, "well OK, but you have to take a reduced payday to make that happen" - that doesn't sound likely in an environment where IRFU are fighting to keep their players in the country.

CMOTDibbler · 17-02-2016 04:19PM

Zzippy wrote: »

It could be, but that would be a new departure AFAIK. Central contracts have always been separate to provincial budget allocations. And Leinster only offering Fitz short-term contracts is not an indictment of the system, it's an indictment of Leinster branch management for how they treated him. I suppose it is a business after all...

Well Luke was actually on a central contract before his injury and it expired while he was out and wasn't renewed. Leinster came up with the goods when the IRFU had basically dumped him. It was one of the things that informed Sexton's decision to leave.

Zzippy wrote: »

If anything, you are grossly misunderstanding what I said. I actually said exactly that about Henshaw, that it was his choice and personal reasons came into it. This isn't about Henshaw, it's about the inequality of allowing one province to rack up more and more central contracts at the expense of other provinces. I don't begrudge Robbie at all, wish him the best at Leinster and hope he's an absolute star for you. Maybe Leinster wouldn't have been so keen to take him if they weren't getting him for free though.

You used the phrase "target internationals from other teams" which is what I was referring to as grossly misrepresenting the situation.

Zzippy wrote: »

No we don't, but we know a bit about the central contract system and how it works, and we can make educated guesses. What's the point of a discussion forum if we can't actually discuss things and debate opinions?

I'm not suggesting that we curtail discussion, but when we're guessing, we're clearly in the area of one guess being as good as another.

Lets put it this way: Pat Lam is very unlikely not to have made sure that if he doesn't get to keep Henshaw, he does get some other advantage from the IRFU to make up.

sfbdqc · 17-02-2016 04:20PM

awec wrote: »

Bit of a subject change, but Dave O'Connor in the Leinster academy is listed as only 6'3" in height.

Is he really a lock, or is this a mistake on the Leinster site?

Site made a mistake, he is around 195cm so 6'5

sfbdqc · 17-02-2016 04:22PM

Hagz wrote: »

He is really a lock and he is really 6'3.

193cm is 6'4 anyway, and he is at least that.

Hagz · 17-02-2016 04:39PM

sfbdqc wrote: »

193cm is 6'4 anyway, and he is at least that.

I was going off the Leinster site which listed him at 191. In any case the guy looked a tremendous athlete whenever I saw him play for Blackrock.

Tox56 · 17-02-2016 04:40PM

As for the contract itself, "presumably" probably depends on the player's circumstances. SOB chose not to take one for good reason I "presume". No player should be guaranteed a central contract. If your employer doesn't want you to move, they are perfectly within their right to offer you different terms and conditions at a different site.

Yeah, and Henshaw is perfectly entitled to say fcuk that then Im off to France which would be an absolute disaster for the IRFU. Im sure Henshaw got offered some very lucrative numbers from abroad, as if this situation wasnt hard enough you basically want the IRFU to put a gun to his head to get him to stay at Connacht, purely in the name of "four strong provinces". I mean, would you really even want Henshaw to stay in Galway when its clearly not where it wants to be? Its an extremely difficult situation I know, but you are asking for some very unreasonable things from the IRFU imo

Neil3030 · 17-02-2016 04:46PM

case885 wrote: »

Central contract I'd imagine so it was the IRFU doing the negotiating.

It just doesn't make sense to me. Why would the IRFU forbid provinces from outbidding each other on players, then offer such a restricted offer to a player that grossly benefits one province?

awec · 17-02-2016 04:51PM

Healy has signed on for three years.

errlloyd · 17-02-2016 04:56PM

On the one hand we might be paying stupid money for him. On the other hand, a model where private individuals continue to invest in Irish talent, without taking too much control from the IRFU might be a way forward in this intensely competitive enviornment.

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

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