Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

sfbdqc wrote: »

Nice the way some people are just ready to right off Cian Healy.

Sure in fairness to everyone, he is a terrible player with no proven track record. :rolleyes:

I fear he has fallen into the Jamie Heaslip and Kearney's category of Leinster players people seem to love hating.

Just imagine how much turn over their would be if every player who has a disrupted year or 2 with injury was discarded.

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Sure in fairness to everyone, he is a terrible player with no proven track record. :rolleyes:

I fear he has fallen into the Jamie Heaslip and Kearney's category of Leinster players people seem to love hating.

Just imagine how much turn over their would be if every player who has a disrupted year or 2 with injury was discarded.

I think Healy was an awesome player and might still be, but hes had two horrible years with serious injuries, and any time he stepped foot on the pitch he looked extremely ordinary. Leinster would be foolish to gamble on him, what if he never returns to the form he had? Another CJ?

LostArt wrote: »

What your source that he wasn't offered a central contract with Connacht? Looks like I completely missed that part!

Read it again. He was offered a central contract. He chose to take up that contract at Leinster. My frustration is that we lose a player and a potential chunk of money that wouldn't come out of our budget, and could be spent on strengthening our squad. Instead, Leinster get the player and the money to pay him, while Connacht have to fund a replacement from own resources. It's not good for Irish rugby to have so many central contracts going to one province, it weakens other teams while propping up that province. If Leinster had to fund all their centrally-contracted players out of their normal budget allocation and own resources it would be a more level playing field.

Edit: I see where confusion may arise. My point was IRFU could have offered a central contract to stay at Connacht, which they did, or a provincial contract if he wants to move, and not fund the move for Leinster themselves. If Leinster had to stump up the cash they may not have been so quick to offer him a contract.

Zzippy wrote: »

Edit: I see where confusion may arise. My point was IRFU could have offered a central contract to stay at Connacht, which they did, or a provincial contract if he wants to move, and not fund the move for Leinster themselves. If Leinster had to stump up the cash they may not have been so quick to offer him a contract.

From all accounts they did want Henshaw to stay at Connacht, and did offer him a central contract, but more than that they want Henshaw under their control. So I don't think they would have ever gone with your suggestion. The IRFU will always put the Irish team first and Henshaw on a central contract is best for the Irish team

b.gud wrote: »

From all accounts they did want Henshaw to stay at Connacht, and did offer him a central contract, but more than that they want Henshaw under their control. So I don't think they would have ever gone with your suggestion. The IRFU will always put the Irish team first and Henshaw on a central contract is best for the Irish team

Henshaw remains under their control - whether he is centrally contracted or paid entirely by Leinster he is an IRFU employee and subject to player management and call ups to training camps, etc.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I doubt they could do that. Or at least do it with any degree of honesty. The danger with playing that kind of game is that he takes the lower offer from Leinster and calls their bluff. If it would indeed be a lower offer.

You could imagine the reaction of his agent, should the IRFU try and pull a stunt like that.

That kind of negotiation is not between IRFU and the player though. They offer him a contract to stay at Connacht. They tell Leinster they are free to match the offer, but it won't be a central contract. The Leinster offer can be the same amount, it doesn't have to be lower. If he takes it so be it, but at least Leinster aren't subsidised even further than they already are to the detriment of another province. If he stays at Connacht the province get the benefit of a central contract, if he goes to Leinster they don't and have to fund the contract themselves. Either way the player is getting paid the same to play rugby in Ireland, but the distribution of central contract money is not further distorted.

Zzippy wrote: »

Henshaw remains under their control - whether he is centrally contracted or paid entirely by Leinster he is an IRFU employee and subject to player management and call ups to training camps, etc.




That kind of negotiation is not between IRFU and the player though. They offer him a contract to stay at Connacht. They tell Leinster they are free to match the offer, but it won't be a central contract. The Leinster offer can be the same amount, it doesn't have to be lower. If he takes it so be it, but at least Leinster aren't subsidised even further than they already are to the detriment of another province. If he stays at Connacht the province get the benefit of a central contract, if he goes to Leinster they don't and have to fund the contract themselves. Either way the player is getting paid the same to play rugby in Ireland, but the distribution of central contract money is not further distorted.

If he wasn't on a central contract at Leinster, it would end up costing more money, as he'd get match appearance bonuses when playing internationally.

Zzippy wrote: »

Read it again. He was offered a central contract. He chose to take up that contract at Leinster. My frustration is that we lose a player and a potential chunk of money that wouldn't come out of our budget, and could be spent on strengthening our squad. Instead, Leinster get the player and the money to pay him, while Connacht have to fund a replacement from own resources. It's not good for Irish rugby to have so many central contracts going to one province, it weakens other teams while propping up that province. If Leinster had to fund all their centrally-contracted players out of their normal budget allocation and own resources it would be a more level playing field.

Edit: I see where confusion may arise. My point was IRFU could have offered a central contract to stay at Connacht, which they did, or a provincial contract if he wants to move, and not fund the move for Leinster themselves. If Leinster had to stump up the cash they may not have been so quick to offer him a contract.

If Leinster had to fund had to fund all their centrally-contracted players, those players wouldn't be in Leinster, they'd most likely be in France/ England.

former total wrote: »

Seriously, where are you reading any of this?

Who has said he should be discarded?

All I've seen is a few eyebrows raised at the figures being thrown around.

All the comments are saying offer significantly less then what is on offer elsewhere. While this is not explicitly saying get rid of him that in essence is/would be the impact.

Out of interest what happens if Jack McGrath runs into similar injury difficulties? Do we forgo him and just go with Dooley then?

Cian Healy is not the first world class player to suffer with injuries. How many did DC and JW go through? Paul O'Connell and Sean O'Brien have gone through similar. There is an awful lot of short sightedness on here in general and this is just another fine example.

Healy was worth that 3 years ago, not now.

Id invest in two post-academy looseheads and a proven english or south african model for the same money

Zzippy wrote: »

That's fair enough for their existing players. But when a player moves to the province and an additional central contract is awarded to Leinster, that just increases the disparity in funding between the provinces and promotes drift of international players to Leinster. If the number of central contracts at Leinster was capped they could still retain their existing internationals, but not benefit from being able to attract players from other provinces at zero cost to themselves.

Most of the money to pay players comes from the IRFU anyway. A certain amount is generated from ticket sales and sponsorship, but the IRFU pay out to the provinces is quite significant.

I would be surprised if there isn't a rebalancing of this subsidy to take account of the amount of the central contract monies.

With T'eo leaving and Denton and Triggs possibly not around next season that just leaved Isa and Zane our only to NIQ players. Beginning to look like a proper Supa Rugby squad.

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

The Healy of the last 2 years is Leinster's 2nd best LH and should be further down the Irish pecking order. I really don't see how its possible to justify €580k a year for a player who is playing in a position of strength in the country.

At his best, he is a phenomenal, world-class player, but we haven't seen his best for ~2 years. I really don't see how those figures add up.

Well if Worcester are offering him €750k and assuming they're not complete fools that would make €580k justifiable?

Healy's had a bad run of injuries, so his form has to be looked at in that light. As others have pointed out, he was looking like his form was on an upward curve in his last couple of outings before his latest op.

We know he's capable of being one of the best in the NH. We know that he's at an age when he should be at his best, the only thing we don't know is if he actually will get back to his best. That's the gamble.

former total wrote: »

Central contracts should be given to those players who are most crucial to the national team, independent of which province they play for.
Otherwise you get into bizarre situations where one player is on a central deal just because his province is "owed" one, whereas much better players elsewhere are on inferior deals because their province has reached the quota. That's happened before and it shouldn't be allowed to happen again.

Top players don't have to be on central contracts. Players have turned down central contracts in the past and opted for provincial contracts. I think SOB did so, IIRC to retain image rights or some commercial reason. I doubt his deal was inferior to the central contract he was offered. Provincial contracts don't have to be inferior in financial terms than central contracts.
Imagine the furore if CJ Stander decided he wanted to move to Dublin and was put on a central contract, with Munster having to fund a replacement.
A quota on existing central contracts is not a bizarre situation. Increasing the number at a province for players signed from other provinces is the more bizarre situation, as it contradicts the IRFU aim of four strong provinces, and is incompatible with Nucifora's remit of spreading talent around the teams to maximise resources, while also strengthening an already strong and more heavily subsidised province at the expense of others.

former total wrote: »

Alternatively, if you have a system whereby Leinster can use their own income to pay players such as Henshaw, then you're into a situation in which one province is bidding against another and then you're into a world of pain.

Provinces already bid against one another - it's just happened. They can't bid more money, but they can offer other inducements. In Henshaw's case, living in Dublin was a big inducement, as would the increased opportunities for endorsements.

former total wrote: »

Finally, none of us really know what sort of "subsidies" the provinces get or even how they should be regarded. Leinster have a lot of internationals, yes, but then have to do without large chunks of their squad for a lot of the season, so how do you capture that in the accounts?

That is a problem caused by concentrating internationals at a team, which is only exacerbated by signings like Henshaw. You can't run with the hare and hunt with the hound - if you are going to sign internationals from other provinces and further increase your exposure to this risk, why should IRFU and other provinces help you out with increased funding? It's fine if you develop your own internationals, as Leinster have - central contracts allow them to maintain a bigger squad to cope with international windows. It's very different if you target internationals from other teams. Don't expect sympathy or understanding of your sad plight then...

rsh118 wrote: »

It would be madness not to keep Healy here. For those who say McGrath is ahead (fair enough) what happens when he picks up a dead leg? Or does himself some other injury? If definitely rather pull an expensive Healy off the bench than rely on no. 3!

No.3 has looked quite good so far, so has No.4. Having said that, I'd be very disappointed to see him leave, form is temporary and he is world class when on form.