The Hazards of Belief

Nodin · 09-02-2016 02:34PM

silverharp wrote: »

i didnt dream it then :pac:

No, though she may have.

looksee · 09-02-2016 02:39PM

Yeah...we don't have any abortion in Ireland love, how does your theory work? Batty.

Pherekydes · 09-02-2016 03:14PM

looksee wrote: »

Yeah...we don't have any abortion in Ireland love, how does your theory work? Batty.

Don't we abort ectopic pregnancies? That's probably what she meant. A few ectopic pregnancies will help to turn the country around.

looksee · 09-02-2016 08:30PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

Don't we abort ectopic pregnancies? That's probably what she meant. A few ectopic pregnancies will help to turn the country around.

Oh right, thanks. I had been worrying about my answer since, wondering if I had missed something obvious. That's it, of course!

recedite · 09-02-2016 10:58PM

Nodin wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_society#Republic_of_Ireland

Kenya has a British based legal system, afaik.

Well if that's it, I hope they lose. I never liked those kind of societies, mainly because (like Groucho Marx) I've never been invited to join one, or even if I was invited, it wouldn't be exclusive enough to be worth joining.

Shrap · 10-02-2016 10:33AM

robindch wrote: »

Ewwwee... the Vatican has dug up the corpse of a dead priest and displayed it in the world's most well-known church. Owing to decomposition, the corpse needed a new a new face made out of silicon.

http://www.rte.ie/news/world/2016/0208/766260-padre-pio-vatican/

Ah, that's boring, not Eww. While I appreciate the skill of the artist who created the likeness and then made a silicone cast, saints ain't as bling as they used to be. I bloody love these :cool:

Meet St. Benedictus the blinged.....

The eternally cheerful visage of St. Theudosius.....

And the wonderfully louche remains of St Vincentus......

Apologies to mobile phone users. Couldn't resist

cowboyBuilder · 10-02-2016 03:46PM

Shrap wrote: »

Ah, that's boring, not Eww. While I appreciate the skill of the artist who created the likeness and then made a silicone cast, saints ain't as bling as they used to be. I bloody love these :cool:

Meet St. Benedictus the blinged.....

The eternally cheerful visage of St. Theudosius.....

And the wonderfully louche remains of St Vincentus......

Apologies to mobile phone users. Couldn't resist

WTF !!

f*cking ghoulish!!

Kivaro · 10-02-2016 03:53PM

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

WTF !!

f*cking ghoulish!!

And yet millions remain starving all around the world ......

looksee · 10-02-2016 04:45PM

Someone was arguing a few days ago that the supersition type stuff in the Catholic Church was not part of core belief (or something). Can anyone explain why the church would - from the top - dig up a body and make it an object of worship? Really, have they nothing better to do?

robindch · 10-02-2016 05:22PM

looksee wrote: »

Can anyone explain why the church would - from the top - dig up a body and make it an object of worship? Really, have they nothing better to do?

It's all about hero-worship and giving people the bread and circuses they want.

Fun fact - you have to be dead to be made a saint - the church doesn't want a live saint running around pulling attention away from the center and potentially going off-message. The Soviet Union and North Korea (and I'm assuming every other totalitarian state) took a similar view - the best heroes were dead ones.

Shrap · 10-02-2016 10:32PM

looksee wrote: »

Someone was arguing a few days ago that the supersition type stuff in the Catholic Church was not part of core belief (or something). Can anyone explain why the church would - from the top - dig up a body and make it an object of worship? Really, have they nothing better to do?

robindch wrote: »

It's all about hero-worship and giving people the bread and circuses they want.

Fun fact - you have to be dead to be made a saint - the church doesn't want a live saint running around pulling attention away from the center and potentially going off-message. The Soviet Union and North Korea (and I'm assuming every other totalitarian state) took a similar view - the best heroes were dead ones.

The super-blinged saints up there were documented by Paul Koudounaris in his fantastic book "Heavenly Bodies" (which I was given as an inspired xmas pressie from my Dad a few years back). They were dragged out of the Roman Catacombs, pieced together and blinged up by nuns (and some brothers as well, as I recall) and passed off as the bones of saints in order to win back followers to the Catholic Church in Germany during the 17th century Protestant Reformation.

It was very much a case of carrot and stick....look how well the CC is doing in terms of wealth and how their martyrs are venerated...they must be the right church to get behind :rolleyes: Looks like nothing has changed very much, although the artists are probably paid now.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-02-2016 12:36AM

A Belfast man accused of exposing himself to female students in the university area of the city had his bail altered to allow him to attend Christian Fellowship meetings.

Special treatment for religion again, as usual - it is doubtful he would have sought or been granted this bail variation for a secular purpose.

Kivaro · 14-02-2016 10:25PM

From the NY Times:
Catholic Leaders Say Zika Doesn’t Change Ban on Contraception.

What an insane bunch of lunatics.

silverharp · 14-02-2016 11:32PM

this is a bit gross

https://www.rt.com/news/332282-child-brides-denmark-refugees/

Danish imam urges govt to accept child marriages among refugees

A high-profile imam has urged the Danish government to accept child brides, as the practice is part of the culture of many refugees arriving in the country. It follows an announcement by Denmark that such couples will be separated under Danish law.
Imam Oussama El-Saadi, of the Aarhus mosque in Denmark, said that child brides should be looked at from a “different perspective.”

“It is an extraordinary humanitarian situation, and I think you have to take care of these families. They’re married, and even if the man is twice as old as they have built a family. We have to accept that it is a different culture, and we cannot destroy family life,” he told Danish newspaper Metroxpress.

El-Saadi went on to explain the alleged benefits of such situations.

“If you look at the situation in the refugee camps, it is often filled with violence and uncertainty. If your daughter marries early and gets a man, it can give the family a safer situation,” he said.

However, he told the newspaper that he wouldn't actually let his own daughter marry until she was 18.

The imam's comments follow an announcement by Danish Integration Minister Inger Støjberg, who said that Denmark would be separating child brides from their husbands.

"It is completely unacceptable that there are currently minors within the Danish asylum system living with their spouses or partners and I have asked the Danish Immigration Service to immediately put a stop to it," Støjberg said.

"We should naturally ensure that young girls are not being forced to live in a relationship with an adult at the asylum centers," she added.

The Danish Integration Ministry revealed in January that there were 27 minors living as part of a married couple in the asylum system. An investigation by Metroxpress found brides as young as 14 living in refugee centers.

Denmark registered 21,000 asylum applications in 2015, making it one of the top EU destinations for refugees per capita, after Finland, Austria, Germany, and Sweden.

Meanwhile, government data from Norway shows that at least 61 minors were married when they sought asylum in the country last year, several of whom were under the country's age of consent. The youngest was an 11-year-old girl.

Just six months ago, a UN report on child marriages among Syrian refugees in Jordan stated that such situations leave girls vulnerable to domestic abuse, poverty, and health problems. It noted several factors responsible for child marriage, including providing protection for young girls, continuing traditions, cultural or family reasons, and serving as an escape for girls living in abusive homes.

robindch · 15-02-2016 10:12AM

silverharp wrote: »

this is a bit gross

It's also from Russia Today, the Kremlin's foreign language media outlet which describes little about Russia and more from the perspective of the Cold War than today.

Not that I'm saying or implying that RT has created this particular story completely out of thin air, but the degree of impartiality and honesty which RT brings to everything it touches is - to say the very least - questionable.

silverharp · 15-02-2016 12:30PM

robindch wrote: »

It's also from Russia Today, the Kremlin's foreign language media outlet which describes little about Russia and more from the perspective of the Cold War than today.

Not that I'm saying or implying that RT has created this particular story completely out of thin air, but the degree of impartiality and honesty which RT brings to everything it touches is - to say the very least - questionable.

It wouldn't be my starting place for news , but with the Muslim issue there seems to be a pattern that a local paper will run a story , but the story will be suppressed by the nationals. So it's the rt's and bteitbart etc. will run them. That particular story has a link back to the Danish original and you can translate it with chrome.
There was a case recently where a 10 year old boy was raped by an asylum seeker in an Austrian swimming pool because he had a "sexual emergency" . on a quick google the daily mail was the only mainstream paper to run it. So its now at the stage that people have to cast their net beyond the BBC or the guardian.
So yep the rt has an agenda but it doesn't mean they are putting out false stories , same with al jazera or the guardian , they will tend not to cover what is idiologially awkward for them.

Nodin · 15-02-2016 01:50PM

silverharp wrote: »

It wouldn't be my starting place for news , but with the Muslim issue there seems to be a pattern that a local paper will run a story , but the story will be suppressed by the nationals..

Conspiracy, eh?

silverharp wrote: »

So it's the rt's and bteitbart etc. will run them. That particular story has a link back to the Danish original and you can translate it with chrome.
There was a case recently where a 10 year old boy was raped by an asylum seeker in an Austrian swimming pool because he had a "sexual emergency" . on a quick google the daily mail was the only mainstream paper to run it. .

RT and Breitbart. Agenda free reporting for the 21st century.

And the independent (British), Mirror, etc carried the story. You realise that details aren't usually gone into too much detail to protect the victim? And that in this case the child was the son of a refugee? Or is it only worth mentioning ethnicity and status when you're trying to get a dig in at a large group.

silverharp wrote: »

So its now at the stage that people have to cast their net beyond the BBC or the guardian.
So yep the rt has an agenda but it doesn't mean they are putting out false stories , same with al jazera or the guardian , they will tend not to cover what is idiologially awkward for them.

Or distorting them, Jaysus no. Who would think of such a thing happening in modern Russia.

Eugene Norman · 15-02-2016 01:58PM

I notice a change in tone here when the criticism moves from Catholicism to Islam. Can't think why.

silverharp · 15-02-2016 01:59PM

Nodin wrote: »

Conspiracy, eh?

RT and Breitbart. Agenda free reporting for the 21st century.

And the independent (British), Mirror, etc carried the story. You realise that details aren't usually gone into too much detail to protect the victim? And that in this case the child was the son of a refugee? Or is it only worth mentioning ethnicity and status when you're trying to get a dig in at a large group.

Or distorting them, Jaysus no. Who would think of such a thing happening in modern Russia.

at the end of the I dont care what the source of a story is. the RT story about an Imam supporting the under age marriages in Denmark seems to be true. Its falls into the category of religious person making absurd statements because of their belief system whether its a christian or a Muslim. Whats the problem? that it wasnt from the Guardian or Salon?

Nodin · 15-02-2016 02:04PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I notice a change in tone here when the criticism moves from Catholicism to Islam. Can't think why.

Fairly sure nobody here nobody criticises the ordinary person who self describes as "catholic"....except for self describing as catholic when they aren't really. We do that a lot, in fairness.

silverharp wrote:

at the end of the I dont care what the source of a story is.

God no. Once it says the right thing, sure it has to be true.

Silverharp wrote:

the RT story about an Imam supporting the under age marriages in Denmark
seems to be true

Is that what he's doing? Because reading the details indicates something else.

silverharp · 15-02-2016 02:16PM

Nodin wrote: »

Fairly sure nobody here nobody criticises the ordinary person who self describes as "catholic"....except for self describing as catholic when they aren't really. We do that a lot, in fairness.

God no. Once it says the right thing, sure it has to be true.

Is that what he's doing? Because reading the details indicates something else.

The Danish gov. correctly splits the couple up if the girl is underage ,and he wants them to be kept together. Do you think a 30 or 40 yearly old man should be allowed stay together with 13 or 14 year old girl?

Nodin · 15-02-2016 02:31PM

silverharp wrote: »

The Danish gov. correctly splits the couple up if the girl is underage ,and he wants them to be kept together. Do you think a 30 or 40 yearly old man should be allowed stay together with 13 or 14 year old girl?

It's problematic, because this leaves them on their own - if you bothered to read what he actually says its quite clear why he's saying they should stay together, and its not exactly an endorsement of child marriage. You seem to be equating this sort of thing with paedophilia, which it isn't, and are doubtless eager to scream about paedo apologia to the heavens.

silverharp · 15-02-2016 03:03PM

Nodin wrote: »

It's problematic, because this leaves them on their own - if you bothered to read what he actually says its quite clear why he's saying they should stay together, and its not exactly an endorsement of child marriage. You seem to be equating this sort of thing with paedophilia, which it isn't, and are doubtless eager to scream about paedo apologia to the heavens.

Its illegal in European countries for good reasons , they are breaking the law. You are suggesting that there should be a parallel legal system for Muslims?

recedite · 15-02-2016 03:30PM

silverharp wrote: »

So yep the rt has an agenda but it doesn't mean they are putting out false stories , same with al jazera or the guardian , they will tend not to cover what is idiologially awkward for them.

Quite right, and its the same for RTE, the BBC, the American media, and all other media.

The youngest was an 11-year-old girl

The Imam wrote:

We have to accept that it is a different culture, and we cannot destroy family life,” he told Danish newspaper Metroxpress.
El-Saadi went on to explain the alleged benefits of such situations...

It sure is a different culture.
And yes, as a minority, they would like their own laws, if possible. Call it "a Sharia council", to start with. Call it "a Sharia Court" later.
And if they became the majority, their own laws would be applied to everybody, regardless of any "cultural differences".

Nodin · 15-02-2016 10:47PM

silverharp wrote: »

Its illegal in European countries for good reasons , they are breaking the law. You are suggesting that there should be a parallel legal system for Muslims?

They didn't break the law, as they were married in a country where its legal. In order to save their lives they were allowed into Denmark, and the worry is that, if separated from the husband, the child will be left both isolated and vulnerable. That's the source of his concern.

recidite wrote:

And yes, as a minority, they would like their own laws, if possible. Call it
"a Sharia council", to start with. Call it "a Sharia Court" later.
And if they became the majority, their own laws would be applied to everybody,
regardless of any "cultural differences".

At this stage its safe to say that any given thread - be it about Disney films or rare elephants - can be hijacked for a "they're takin over rant".

marienbad · 15-02-2016 11:12PM

Nodin wrote: »

At this stage its safe to say that any given thread - be it about Disney films or rare elephants - can be hijacked for a "they're takin over rant".

Not really Nodin , whatever about the rights and wrongs of the story and the source of the story the fact of the matter is that the country receiving refugees has a system of values and laws and it is not unreasonable to expect asylum seekers to comply with those .

Similarly it is not unreasonable for families of those young people to expect proper protection for those children .

But the fact is certain values are non negotiable .

silverharp · 15-02-2016 11:41PM

Nodin wrote: »

They didn't break the law, as they were married in a country where its legal. In order to save their lives they were allowed into Denmark, and the worry is that, if separated from the husband, the child will be left both isolated and vulnerable. That's the source of his concern.

ah here , the Danes are free to ignore these marriages, separate the kids and deal with them as they would any other child. Its a disgrace for an Imam to take the other side. Its known that many Imams support and will perform marriages with under age children in Europe, this guy is just speaking his book

Absolam · 16-02-2016 12:12AM

I'm a tiny bit wary of this... what if, for instance, same sex marriage were illegal in Denmark (I know it's not, this is just an example). If the Danish Integration Minister announced they would be forcibly separating husbands from their spouses in asylum centers would it be as readily accepted?
I kind of feel like what they're doing is seen as ok because it conforms to our cultural values, without considering whether other cultural values may be as valid as our own, or at least, to what degree are we really entitled to force our values on someone who hasn't come to us because they want to be part of our culture but because staying where they were would cause their death? Undoubtedly, to some degree if they're to live in our society, but I'm not really sure we've come to a reasonable conclusion of what is actually fair and humanitarian.

Canadel · 16-02-2016 07:09AM

Absolam wrote: »

I'm a tiny bit wary of this... what if, for instance, same sex marriage were illegal in Denmark (I know it's not, this is just an example). If the Danish Integration Minister announced they would be forcibly separating husbands from their spouses in asylum centers would it be as readily accepted?
I kind of feel like what they're doing is seen as ok because it conforms to our cultural values, without considering whether other cultural values may be as valid as our own, or at least, to what degree are we really entitled to force our values on someone who hasn't come to us because they want to be part of our culture but because staying where they were would cause their death? Undoubtedly, to some degree if they're to live in our society, but I'm not really sure we've come to a reasonable conclusion of what is actually fair and humanitarian.

Whatever your views are on SSM, the idea of child brides is objectively wrong and inhumane. It transcends the notion of cultural values. It really is a case of us being correct and them being wrong. The question becomes, as you say, whether we should enforce our values on someone who hasn't come to us because they want to be part of our culture but because staying where they were would cause their death? That's when things become more complicated. If they are remaining in the camps for the foreseeable future then I don't see what can be done about it, but if they are leaving the camps to live in Danish society then whatever about cultural differences and values, they should be treated the same as everyone else under Danish law.

Pherekydes · 16-02-2016 07:47AM

Canadel wrote: »

Whatever your views are on SSM, the idea of child brides is objectively wrong and inhumane.

Unfortunately, the idea of what a child is is subjective. Some believe that a child magically ceases to be a child on their 18th birthday, while others choose various other ages. It's really a gradual process and varies from child to child.

The Hazards of Belief

Comments