Catholic bishops not obliged to report clerical child abuse, Vatican says

RobertKK wrote: »

So your neighbour abuses your child, you go to your neighbour and ask them to deal with it, you don't go to the police yourself?

Your sibling is abusing your neighbour's child and you find out.

Rather than go to the police, you chastise your sibling and do nothing else.

Yet, somehow the neighbour is the one in the wrong.

Pathetic, shameless apologism on your part for an evil organisation. Inexcusable. Yet you'll no doubt continue bleating on in relation to ethical and moral topics even though you've now proven yourself bereft of both.

Under Children's First their is mandatory reporting of any suspicions of any form of Child abuse, not just sexual. Only just recently commenced. Problem with it though it doesn't really state any punishments for not reporting within it. Seems to say that people can be prosecuted under the Criminal Justice act for withholding of information of offences against Children and Vulnerable persons or under recklessness endangerment, but in my experience I haven't seen any cases of recklessness endangerment taken against anyone, or withholding information but that is a newer act.

Azalea wrote: »

That's a bit *too* obtuse in fairness.

It's not "a crime" (as in any crime by anyone) which people are saying should be reported to the church, it's abuse by church members.

Same as reporting abuse by a teacher to the principal of the school.

Same as reporting abuse in the workplace to a manager/HR.

I agree children are not at risk from clergy now like they would have been in the past, but I wouldn't rule out risk either. Predators are still willing to take huge risks.

The abuse victims should report the crimes to the police. Children are more likely to be abused in the BBC or RTE than the church, and have we heard of any child protection measures implemented by any of these?
The BBC didn't report abuse even when they knew decades ago, and you have people who love John Peel who had to flee the US over having sex with an underage girl.
The thing is the church has done more than any organisation to fight abuse.
The article says:
Indeed, a church official familiar with the commission on abuse said it was the committee’s position that reporting abuse to civil authorities was a “moral obligation, whether the civil law requires it or not”. The official said the committee would be involved in future training efforts.

So many people with their knickers in knots to express their horror. It is mostly fake. I know of a priest who was suspended about 10 years ago here in Ireland and he was reported by the church to the Gardai, he was found to be innocent. I think most here are not involved with the church so believe the worse.

Abuse victims should go to the police. From what I see, the church do go to the police to investigate.

RTE didn't go to the Gardai when they falsely accused Fr Reynolds, The church did immediately suspend him when the allegations were made. RTE were prepared to let what they believed to be an abuser to be free to continue. They didn't go to the bishop, they refused to allow DNA to show they were wrong. They believed he was an abuser.
RTE is a bigger threat to child safety in this country, as they have shown they would allow a person who they believe to be an abuser to be free to abuse, until they had their program made, and refused to believe a priest could be innocent.
They should have went straight to the Gardai, who would likely have DNA tested to see if there was a case to be answered.
This is why people should go straight to the Gardai or police.

RobertKK wrote: »

I think the church is taking the right approach

The churches approach is to further cover up abuse by members of the clergy or others, unless to report said abuse is a crime.

The "right approach" is to further facilitate abuse by covering it up. Christ on a ****ing bike.

RobertKK wrote: »

The abuse victims should report the crimes to the police. Children are more likely to be abused in the BBC or RTE than the church, and have we heard of any child protection measures implemented by any of these?
The BBC didn't report abuse even when they knew decades ago, and you have people who love John Peel who had to flee the US over having sex with an underage girl.
The thing is the church has done more than any organisation to fight abuse.
The article says:
Indeed, a church official familiar with the commission on abuse said it was the committee’s position that reporting abuse to civil authorities was a “moral obligation, whether the civil law requires it or not”. The official said the committee would be involved in future training efforts.

So many people with their knickers in knots to express their horror. It is mostly fake. I know of a priest who was suspended about 10 years ago here in Ireland and he was reported by the church to the Gardai, he was found to be innocent. I think most here are not involved with the church so believe the worse.

Abuse victims should go to the police. From what I see, the church do go to the police to investigate.

RTE didn't go to the Gardai when they falsely accused Fr Reynolds, The church did immediately suspend him when the allegations were made. RTE were prepared to let what they believed to be an abuser to be free to continue. They didn't go to the bishop, they refused to allow DNA to show they were wrong. They believed he was an abuser.
RTE is a bigger threat to child safety in this country, as they have shown they would allow a person who they believe to be an abuser to be free to abuse, until they had their program made, and refused to believe a priest could be innocent.
They should have went straight to the Gardai, who would likely have DNA tested to see if there was a case to be answered.
This is why people should go straight to the Gardai or police.

Just more SPIN!!!:eek:

What the BBC did and RTE did might not be right but it doesn't excuse what is said by the church about telling bishops it is not necessarily there duty to report examples of child abuse. By saying that they are in direct opposition to Children's first 2015. Which states;

'Any work or activity which consists of the provision of-

1. Eduactional, research, training, cultural, recreational, leisure, social or physical activities to children

2. Any work or activity as a minister or priest or any other person engaged in the advancement of any religious beliefs which would or could bring that minister, priest or other person, as the case may be, into contact with a child.

The person is considered a mandated person and must report any suspiscions of any form of child abuse.


(There are many more people covered too, I didn't want to have to type them all out because I don't have an electronic copy to hand, Garda, Drivers, childcare workers, career guidance counselors are all covered too for example)

RobertKK wrote: »

The abuse victims should report the crimes to the police.

Yes, but historical cases time and time again have shown social stigmas and attempts to silence a victim's claims. Let's not forgot about priests who had been moved from clergy to clergy upon allegations brought against them.

Children are more likely to be abused in the BBC or RTE than the church, and have we heard of any child protection measures implemented by any of these?

Absolute bullshít, a piss poor attempt to deflect away from the church's scumbag behaviour.

The fact that people will still defend this type of blatant attitude from any organisation in 2016 is just incredible.

It's full-on willful ignorance.

Robert this draft policy has nothing to do with whether victims are encouraged to go to the police or not.

It's intended to absolve bishops of any responsibility to report any knowledge of child abuse to the authorities that they may become aware of, regardless of the laws of that jurisdiction that may compel them to do so.

Thankfully it's only a draft proposal, and has no chance of being implemented.

cdeb wrote: »

They should. But you're completely missing the points, which are -

• History has shown there's a stigma over doing that, and many people don't report sexual abuse
• Children in particular can be cowed by an adult telling them to keep quiet
• It is common practice nowadays for organisations to monitor and report such suspicions within their own organisations to the police

Can you address the above points? Can you give me a reason why the Catholic Church shouldn't report such acts to the police, given that "Let someone else do it" isn't acceptable?


Where do you get this from?

I think you just made it up.

The reports showed that some of these abuse victims didn't want the law involved, believing the church could deal with it.

It is no harm if the church is making clear that this approach is not acceptable, that instead of going to the church, they instead go to the proper authorities.


The BBC had Rolf Harris do a program telling how to protect your child against abusers, he is in jail for abuse against girls.
They knew from 1959 that Jimmy Savile was a danger, as the first allegations were made then, yet he had free reign for decades to abuse.
Had no problem with John Peel being on their radio stations when it was clear he had underage sex in the US.
Have you heard of any child protection measures the BBC have implemented since their abuse scandals?

From January of this year:
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jan/21/bbc-staff-jimmy-savile-dame-janet-smith

In all major sex abuse scandals – from Rotherham to the Catholic church, as well as Jimmy Savile – the perpetrators are aided by a culture of silence. And the most searing indictment in the report into the BBC’s handling of the Jimmy Savile abuse scandal is that this culture of silence continues.
Decades after children who spoke out about abuse by Savile were bustled out of the studio, BBC employees still feel too scared to speak out about their workplace in case they lose their job or fail to get promoted, according to Dame Janet Smith’s draft report. Extraordinarily, the draft report records that one teenager abused on camera was told it was “just Jimmy fooling about”.
Even after Savile’s death, those who chose to talk to the officially sanctioned review did so in the main if they were allowed to remain anonymous. They spoke of their fear that they would suffer the consequences for doing so.

the article goes onto say: But if a culture of deference to celebrity is allowed to continue unabated, amid rising job insecurity, of course there could still be predatory child abusers “lurking undiscovered in the BBC”. To be honest, they could be in any workplace.

But sure people watch the BBC, they don't go to church, so it is easy to target the organisation that is doing most to protect children over an organisation where people are sfraid to speak out in case they lose their jobs.
This is the hypocrisy we will see. How many will stop watching the BBC or other media due to abuse, where measures are far lower than the church to protect minors?

Jaden wrote: »

So:

RTE withholds information on allegations of abuse = BAD.
BBC withholds information on allegations of abuse = BAD.
The Catholic Church withholds information on allegations of abuse = Ah, Grand. No problem there.

no, church policy is to report.

But abuse victims should at this stage see a pattern that happened where it looks like all very high profile organisations decided to keep it silent rather than report when they first found out.
It was all bad, but according to the Guardian, the culture of silence on abuse still exists at the BBC.

kneemos wrote: »

I'd quit before the hole fills with water.

Yeah people only looking at the church should stop only looking in the hle they are in, and recognise there are many holes which abusers abused.

RobertKK wrote: »

The church does go to the police.

Are you simply misunderstanding the central point of the OP or something?

The central point is that the vatican says they don't have to go to the police.

Delirium wrote: »

but they're contradicting/considering changing that. From the OP:

So they seem to be reverting back to the mentality that helped child abusers evade punishment for their abuse.

Yeah reporting abuse to the police helped child abusers.
They should stop reporting...you have the position so backward.