One billion less to gangland crime?

Jimlh86 · 10-02-2016 04:39PM

I am neither a Doctor or a psychologist, but I have 6+ years of working on a drug unit. I am on the fence when it comes to legalisation of Cannabis.

I have however noticed this, the older generation say 35+ (sorry if this insults people over 35) smoke in moderation i.e a joint or two in the evening after work of whatever. It probably isn't doing huge amounts of harm but again I'm not a doctor.

But here's the thing younger users say teens to early twenties are getting a 50 bag and sitting down and smoking until the bag is gone! Then as soon as they have the cash do the same again! They are smoking stronger more chemically enhanced strains! I recall opening a jar of home grown weed and it honestly smelled like weed killer. That chap is still in a dept of psychiatry and probably isn't getting out.

From my experience I think in the next 10 years or so we are going to see massive mental health implications in this country due to cannabis abuse. Day to day in my job I am already starting to see the effects.

Again medically I'm not in anyway qualified to say that but just my tuppence worth.

Autonomous Cowherd · 10-02-2016 04:50PM

The whole driving on drugs thing is a bit of a laugh when you consider how very very many people are driving under the daily influence of prescription drugs that definitely do affect people's judgement and reaction time, etc. I have tried both...I would not drive on dope, but neither would I like to be driving on prescription anxiolytics. And yet tens of thousands do.... of course the doctor gave them out, so it must be grand.
As for people turning into monsters on weed, it would be an anomaly. Personal anecdotal evidence is not useful for making universal law. If people are monstrous on weed, you could say it was their Cheerios made them so....in other words, it is an underlying mental issue with them that would be there in the presence or absence of intoxicants. The dis-inhibition simply allows the monster to come out, but did not create it in the first place. An addictive personality is a symptom of something deeper.
People who get paranoid on weed (often as a result of a ragwort allergy) simply drop the practice of using it. Why would they keep it up when it feels so horrible? People who get ugly on drink seem to plough on with that drug.
For all those anti-legalisation, read up the real stats on crime and usage in Portugal, USA etc, and just let the logic of it all sink in.

Autonomous Cowherd · 10-02-2016 04:52PM

Jimlh86 wrote: »

I am neither a Doctor or a psychologist, but I have 6+ years of working on a drug unit. I am on the fence when it comes to legalisation of Cannabis.

I have however noticed this, the older generation say 35+ (sorry if this insults people over 35) smoke in moderation i.e a joint or two in the evening after work of whatever. It probably isn't doing huge amounts of harm but again I'm not a doctor.

But here's the thing younger users say teens to early twenties are getting a 50 bag and sitting down and smoking until the bag is gone! Then as soon as they have the cash do the same again! They are smoking stronger more chemically enhanced strains! I recall opening a jar of home grown weed and it honestly smelled like weed killer. That chap is still in a dept of psychiatry and probably isn't getting out.

From my experience I think in the next 10 years or so we are going to see massive mental health implications in this country due to cannabis abuse. Day to day in my job I am already starting to see the effects.

Again medically I'm not in anyway qualified to say that but just my tuppence worth.

Yes, I agree. Modern strains have been bred to increase the intoxication levels without the moderation of the ordinary plant. It is and will be a problem.

warpdrive · 10-02-2016 04:56PM

Jimlh86 wrote: »

I am neither a Doctor or a psychologist, but I have 6+ years of working on a drug unit. I am on the fence when it comes to legalisation of Cannabis.

I have however noticed this, the older generation say 35+ (sorry if this insults people over 35) smoke in moderation i.e a joint or two in the evening after work of whatever. It probably isn't doing huge amounts of harm but again I'm not a doctor.

But here's the thing younger users say teens to early twenties are getting a 50 bag and sitting down and smoking until the bag is gone! Then as soon as they have the cash do the same again! They are smoking stronger more chemically enhanced strains! I recall opening a jar of home grown weed and it honestly smelled like weed killer. That chap is still in a dept of psychiatry and probably isn't getting out.

From my experience I think in the next 10 years or so we are going to see massive mental health implications in this country due to cannabis abuse. Day to day in my job I am already starting to see the effects.

Again medically I'm not in anyway qualified to say that but just my tuppence worth.

We are if it continues how it currently is because there's no regulation and quality control. The current criminal producers are purely aiming to make the strongest THC strains as possible and buyers are fooled into thinking being absolutely stoned out of their minds is the only point of smoking weed and the cycle continues. Most people here wouldn't even know the difference between Sativa's and indica's, possibly even some of the dealers as well, people are just buying whatever's available so we're going nowhere really.

Junkyard Tom · 10-02-2016 04:57PM

I gave up on the 'legalise weed' debate because trying to rationalise with those who are against legalisation is like trying to discuss evolution with a creationist.

There is no 'war' on drugs - it's a war against people.

Mesrine65 · 10-02-2016 04:58PM

Hammer89 wrote: »

Did he dangle a six pack of Burger Bites in front of you to check if you were stoned or not?

Curiously enough, I don't get the munchies :eek:

Little CuChulainn · 10-02-2016 05:01PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

The whole driving on drugs thing is a bit of a laugh when you consider how very very many people are driving under the daily influence of prescription drugs that definitely do affect people's judgement and reaction time, etc. I have tried both...I would not drive on dope, but neither would I like to be driving on prescription anxiolytics. And yet tens of thousands do.... of course the doctor gave them out, so it must be grand.

Both are illegal

Little CuChulainn · 10-02-2016 05:03PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I gave up on the 'legalise weed' debate because trying to rationalise with those who are against legalisation is like trying to discuss evolution with a creationist.

There is no 'war' on drugs - it's a war against people.

I've given up on debating it in most cases because I find both sides to be equally stubborn and dismissive.

Ash.J.Williams · 10-02-2016 05:03PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I gave up on the 'legalise weed' debate because trying to rationalise with those who are against legalisation is like trying to discuss evolution with a creationist.

There is no 'war' on drugs - it's a war against people.

i find both side are absolute pains in the hole

Ash.J.Williams · 10-02-2016 05:06PM

Jimlh86 wrote: »

I am neither a Doctor or a psychologist, but I have 6+ years of working on a drug unit. I am on the fence when it comes to legalisation of Cannabis.

I have however noticed this, the older generation say 35+ (sorry if this insults people over 35) smoke in moderation i.e a joint or two in the evening after work of whatever. It probably isn't doing huge amounts of harm but again I'm not a doctor.

But here's the thing younger users say teens to early twenties are getting a 50 bag and sitting down and smoking until the bag is gone! Then as soon as they have the cash do the same again! They are smoking stronger more chemically enhanced strains! I recall opening a jar of home grown weed and it honestly smelled like weed killer. That chap is still in a dept of psychiatry and probably isn't getting out.

From my experience I think in the next 10 years or so we are going to see massive mental health implications in this country due to cannabis abuse. Day to day in my job I am already starting to see the effects.

Again medically I'm not in anyway qualified to say that but just my tuppence worth.

you are correct, there are issues forthcoming and the best way to observe it is psychiatric statistics.

Ash.J.Williams · 10-02-2016 05:09PM

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Sorry to hear that, that's absolutely awful and I hope you're well away from that scumbag. I don't think a person like that can blame any drugs for their violence, if that evil streak is in them then it's their own fault!

I don't think cases like this represent the majority of cannabis smokers though, again I know plenty of people who smoke it and I can say with hand on heart that none of them are violent.

In fact, personally I've never seen someone who I knew was stoned getting physically violent, on the other hand, sadly, I've seen many drunk people in fights and some very nasty ones as well. But of course that doesn't mean someone who isn't violent on drink should be prevented from drinking just because other people can't control themselves.

maybe there's a case that regulation can fix the strains of weed, but i also see this regularly. People that smoke every night can get very agitated...when out of their comfort zone

Junkyard Tom · 10-02-2016 05:10PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I've given up on debating it at all because I find both sides to be equally stubborn and dismissive.

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

i find both side are absolute pains in the hole

'Both sides' suggests there is some sort of rational argument against legalisation which creates a 'false balance' - there is no rational argument against legalisation.

None.

Mesrine65 · 10-02-2016 05:12PM

Why do non-smokers care whether we smoke or not?

Honest question...

DEFTLEFTHAND · 10-02-2016 05:15PM

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Like the way the Mafia started moving to Vegas a few decades ago and many went 'legitimate'?

That to me is massive progress. Less people get killed.

Legitimate my arse, they used Casinos as fronts for other activities. Vegas was an awful cesspit of crime and violence when they ruled it.

Little CuChulainn · 10-02-2016 05:17PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

'Both sides' suggests there is some sort of rational argument against legalisation which creates a 'false balance' - there is no rational argument against legalisation.

None.

Like I said, stubborn and dismissive.

ScumLord · 10-02-2016 05:28PM

kneemos wrote: »

Criminals by nature,they just diversify.

It would be impossible for them to diversify into anything that would match the sales they get in cannabis. They couldn't rob enough houses, they couldn't sell enough cocaine, there's literally no replacement for cannabis money. They simply wouldn't be able to support the same level of enterprise that they could with cannabis. It's like telling a gold mining company to stop mining gold and diversify into selling some other metal. Or telling Apple they can't sell the iPhone anymore. They could keep going, but they wouldn't be the same size.

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I think we have enough problems and anti social behaviour and mental health issues without encouraging more. Weed is not harmless. Rather than making the state the drug dealers how about just put resources in to tackling gangland activities?

Why would the state become drug dealers? They create a regulated industry, from growing, to distribution, to sales to the public, vet everyone.

They could drastically reduce the illegal trade by also legalising the production of hemp on farms. That would pollute the country with hemp pollen making an expensive sealed growing operation the only way to grow the kind of cannabis suitable for medical and recreational uses.

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Oh hunter, I know plenty about cannabis and its effects. I've had broken hands, broken noses and multiple injuries at the hands of another person who would sit there and claim it was harmless. And no, there was not other issues at play either. I lived with him before he started smoking and after he started smoking and he became agitated, paranoid and very easily angered. So, I know plenty of what I'm talking about because I have had to live with it.

That's bizarre, I've never in all my years seen cannabis have that effect on people, and I'd be pretty confident I've met a hell of a lot more cannabis users than you. Sorry it happened but that guy had issues and perhaps cannabis was a catalyst for it, but I've never seen cannabis cause that kind of behaviour, so if it does happen it's rare.

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The criminals still sell the drugs. But let us say for the sake of argument you just legalise the whole industry. How would it be any different? Criminals would still run it. You'd have to regulate the whole industry, from point of manufacture to point of sale. I'd argue that takes more than simply the flick of a pen.

Your right. It would take some time, it wouldn't be easy, but there's no reason to think criminals would still be running that industry. Mostly because it could be heavily regulated and vetted, plus they'll be paying tax, which criminals don't like doing.

Incidentally, the profit margin on marijuana is pretty small. Ecstasy and cocaine are the big money drugs.

What makes you think the profit margins are small? Cost of production would be the most costly part and even with under lights the cost isn't anything major, sell 2-3 ounces at street value and you've paid off your growing costs. In a legal comercial grow the cost would be even smaller per ounce.

Jimlh86 wrote: »

I am neither a Doctor or a psychologist, but I have 6+ years of working on a drug unit. I am on the fence when it comes to legalisation of Cannabis.

The problem with people that work in jobs like yours is that you only tend to see the worst side of drug abuse. It's not like the rest of the population call in to say their drug experience went fine.

But here's the thing younger users say teens to early twenties are getting a 50 bag and sitting down and smoking until the bag is gone! Then as soon as they have the cash do the same again! They are smoking stronger more chemically enhanced strains! I recall opening a jar of home grown weed and it honestly smelled like weed killer. That chap is still in a dept of psychiatry and probably isn't getting out.

I don't see any reason to believe the weed was "chemically treated" because of the smell. Weed comes in many different smells and it's pungent stuff. I think this idea that we're using some sort of super weed is a bit misleading, science has lead people to be better at growing weed as we get to know the plant better we can get better results out of it. But that's botany for you.

From my experience I think in the next 10 years or so we are going to see massive mental health implications in this country due to cannabis abuse. Day to day in my job I am already starting to see the effects.

I don't see why, cannabis use has been pretty high for the past 10 years at least, and in other countries it's been in use heavily since the 60s. If there were any major mental health implications we'd have seen them somewhere by now.

Bottom line is the fallout from cannabis abuse can't be any worse than the fallout from prohibition and drug funded criminal organisations. We can deal with addiction, we have no solution to industrialised criminal enterprises. It's as simple as that as far as I'm concerned. Either get used to gangland shootings, or legalise drugs.

RobertKK · 10-02-2016 05:28PM

We should legalise diesel and cigarettes and that would stop the illegal trade in these products...

Junkyard Tom · 10-02-2016 05:33PM

RobertKK wrote: »

We should legalise diesel and cigarettes and that would stop the illegal trade in these products...

Making them illegal would sure as hell make everything exponentially worse.

whatawaster81 · 10-02-2016 05:41PM

Noonan would tax the weed so heavily like he taxed cigarettes to fund the dysfunctional health service that people would buy it cheaper of criiminals. Like trust the Government to get that right

ScumLord · 10-02-2016 05:48PM

whatawaster81 wrote: »

Noonan would tax the weed so heavily like he taxed cigarettes to fund the dysfunctional health service that people would buy it cheaper of criiminals. Like trust the Government to get that right

Even if the government matched the 80% tax on cigarettes, that would mean the cheapest weed (when comparing to Amsterdam coffee shop prices) would still come out at less than €10. Which is a cheap price compared to the current street prices. Plus once you add in comercial growing reducing the production cost that price would be even lower, including 80% tax. Criminal enterprise couldn't match legal comercial growing. They'd be priced out of the market pretty quickly.

Shermanator · 10-02-2016 05:53PM

Why don't we just use the "Mandatory" 10 yr jail sentence for the larger drug arrest ?

Junkyard Tom · 10-02-2016 05:54PM

whatawaster81 wrote: »

Noonan would tax the weed so heavily like he taxed cigarettes to fund the dysfunctional health service that people would buy it cheaper of criiminals. Like trust the Government to get that right

That's an appeal to negative consequences. Predicting an undesirable outcome to make an argument against taking an action.

Also that would be a problem of over-taxation rather than legality. If the government doubled the price of cigarettes the smuggling of them would increase enormously.

whatawaster81 · 10-02-2016 05:56PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Even if the government matched the 80% tax on cigarettes, that would mean the cheapest weed (when comparing to Amsterdam coffee shop prices) would still come out at less than €10. Which is a cheap price compared to the current street prices. Plus once you add in comercial growing reducing the production cost that price would be even lower, including 80% tax. Criminal enterprise couldn't match legal comercial growing. They'd be priced out of the market pretty quickly.

Fair enough, but how do they police the grow houses? In terms of what's going on lately? Those lads would stop at nothing to get their hands on the stuff.

Stinicker · 10-02-2016 05:59PM

Flick of a pen, bring back the Death Penalty for Drug dealers and traffickers, mandatory prison sentences for possesion, liberal do gooders and hippy types could do with a good dose of porridge to wake them up a bit.

ScumLord · 10-02-2016 06:03PM

whatawaster81 wrote: »

Fair enough, but how do they police the grow houses? In terms of what's going on lately? Those lads would stop at nothing to get their hands on the stuff.

So are you asking how do they police the the grow house that it's following regulations or how do they protect the grow houses from criminal gangs robbing them?

Both would seem obvious enough, we already have authorities going all over the country monitoring food production, so there is knowledge and experience there already.

When it comes to protecting the grow house from being robbed. I'd expect like any business they'd get their own security. How do bulmers stop black market gangs robbing their warehouses? Once people can go into a shop and buy cannabis, I don't see them seeking out the out of work weed dealer on the off chance he has some cheaper weed that could have come from anywhere. Cannabis will turn into connoisseur market, just like wine and coffee.

DrumSteve · 10-02-2016 06:07PM

Stinicker wrote: »

Flick of a pen, bring back the Death Penalty for Drug dealers and traffickers, mandatory prison sentences for possesion, liberal do gooders and hippy types could do with a good dose of porridge to wake them up a bit.

:pac:

warpdrive · 10-02-2016 06:11PM

Stinicker wrote: »

Flick of a pen, bring back the Death Penalty for Drug dealers and traffickers, mandatory prison sentences for possesion, liberal do gooders and hippy types could do with a good dose of porridge to wake them up a bit.

Good luck to your children/grand children/great grand children if this was implemented. Do you genuinely believe people close to you, especially the younger generations, haven't tried drugs? And you'd like to see them receive prison sentences if they ever do? Ridiculous attitude if you're genuinely serious but I don't believe you are lol.

10-02-2016 06:28PM

Legalising the bud is one thing, but can we trust our lot to do it right? As in ensure that the price and quality is sufficient enough to keep people from going back to the black market? As a former smoker, I would have loved to be able to walk into a premises and legally purchase some over the counter - the amount of times my skin crawled because of some of the locations/characters I had to visit to secure the leaf was far too high. If I was still a smoker and the government legislated for it in the morning, I would choose to buy through legal means even if the price and quality weren't just as good as the street dealers.

Although I don't think marijuana is as harmless as many suggest, speaking from personal experience, I do think that it's a no-brainer in terms of legalising it. The revenue alone would be considerable. As for putting the dealers out of business, I'm not too sure as they are adaptable, but it would bring a sizable chunk of change into the exchequer. Money isn't the be all and end all but whatever government is in power come mid-March, it would be worth their time running some numbers and taking a serious look at some of the recent examples laid down by states like Colorado and Washington in the U.S.

rubadub · 10-02-2016 07:04PM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Oh hunter, I know plenty about cannabis and its effects. I've had broken hands, broken noses and multiple injuries at the hands of another person who would sit there and claim it was harmless. And no, there was not other issues at play either. I lived with him before he started smoking and after he started smoking and he became agitated, paranoid and very easily angered.

Was he growing his own and only ever smoking his own? if not you do not have a clue what he was ingesting, which is part of the problem. Your issue could be with synthetic cannabinoids passed off as cannabis, or genuine cannabis laced with these drugs, or laced with other synthetic psychoactive drugs, loads are readily available which would be far more likely to have the effects you speak of. Also was he mixing it with tobacco too?

It would be like saying "that alcohol stuff is terrible, my friend went mental and beat me up and his liver was fcuked and eyesight was damaged" and then it turns out it was industrial alcohols being passed off as alcohol. Which is already common enough even though alcohol is legal. If legal people would have access to regulated controlled supplies, just like alcohol. Some cheapskates would still buy it on the blackmarket, there is no doubt at all about that, and just like alcohol & tobacco they are taking the risk.

ScumLord · 10-02-2016 07:41PM

rubadub wrote: »

Was he growing his own and only ever smoking his own? if not you do not have a clue what he was ingesting, which is part of the problem. Your issue could be with synthetic cannabinoids passed off as cannabis, or genuine cannabis laced with these drugs, or laced with other synthetic psychoactive drugs, loads are readily available which would be far more likely to have the effects you speak of. Also was he mixing it with tobacco too?

I don't think we can discount the possibility that cannabis did contribute to this reaction. Generally I think you need to be a paranoid person for cannabi to cause paranoid delusions. I know plenty of people that are paranoid about everything to begin with. They think the worst, they believe people are talking about them, if they see someone walking down the road at night they assume their up to no good. Those kind of people do react badly to drugs. The simple solution is they don't do drugs.

One billion less to gangland crime?

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