Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

gizmo555 · 08-02-2016 07:17PM

Alan_P wrote: »

Even if applicants aren't obliged to provide an Eircode (which I suspect will change very quickly anyway), they can be "invited" to.

If Eircodes are made compulsory, that will be completely contrary to the assurances given by Minister for Communications Alex White, who repeatedly said they won't.

Alan_P wrote: »

Those that don't will automatically be flagging themselves for further investigation.

Given the present very low take up of Eircodes, the investigators will be very busy. Not very effective though . . .

Alan_P wrote: »

Even aside from applicants providing it, the mere fact that every dwelling in the country now has a unique code will greatly simplify the task of identifying multiple fradulent applications from slight variations of the same address.

What evidence is there that is currently a problem? Have you ever heard of PPS Numbers? Birth Certificates? Public Services Cards?

TheChizler · 08-02-2016 07:58PM

Not necessarily an interesting implementation, but evidence of usage: election leaflet through the door from Ciarán Lynch addressed to the householder but our Eircode was on it.

Sam Russell · 08-02-2016 08:00PM

Looked up a District Court address and it had its Eircode on it.

clewbays · 08-02-2016 09:20PM

plodder wrote: »

if you're delivering pizzas, then they'll be quite cold by the time you get there ... a very scenic 68 mile drive around Lough Mask and over the Partry mountains to Srahlea in Co Mayo.

What do you think was that householder's expectation when they ordered a pizza to be delivered to them 68 miles away across the hills? Do you think they expected it to be oven hot? Did they expect free delivery? Would you ring a pizza shop that was 68 miles away if you were hungry

there is a very popular Pizza Hut in Holyhead if you want the number?

GJG · 08-02-2016 09:56PM

gizmo555 wrote: »

If Eircodes are made compulsory, that will be completely contrary to the assurances given by Minister for Communications Alex White, who repeatedly said they won't.

What was said was that putting the Eircode on an address would not be compulsory. If you have a different quote, perhaps you could provide it.

In other words, If you don't want to use Eircode, that's fine but I don't think you can insist that other people don't use it. Given that the last time it was studied, 10 per cent of addresses given on unemployment claims didn't exist, I think you can say with certainty that the chances of continuing to get the dole if you choose not to give your full address - including Eircode - will be slim.

gizmo555 · 08-02-2016 10:08PM

GJG wrote: »

What was said was that putting the Eircode on an address would not be compulsory. If you have a different quote, perhaps you could provide it.

No government department is making Eircode mandatory, although they may ask you for an Eircode, you are not obligated to provide it.

(My emphasis.)

http://www.eircode.ie/faqs

Jakey Rolling · 08-02-2016 10:19PM

Surprised to have a Fastways courier turn up at my door today without him having to call for directions - I have slated them in the past as the worst of a bad bunch. Previous drivers have been technically challenged, not interested in using SatNav to make their job easier. This latest fella thinks Eircodes are great.

Elsewhere I note that the Passport Office have Eircode on their application forms, but car insurance companies of all people not using it yet. Thought it would be of interest them for identifying risk areas, potential fraud etc?

GJG · 08-02-2016 11:18PM

gizmo555 wrote: »

No government department is making Eircode mandatory, although they may ask you for an Eircode, you are not obligated to provide it.

(My emphasis.)

http://www.eircode.ie/faqs

Fair point.

Nevertheless, I think that, going forward, claims from people who choose not to provide an Eircode might warrant closer scrutiny. If I was running an insurance company, I would certainly make supplying Eircode voluntary - you can choose to take your business elsewhere.

ukoda · 09-02-2016 12:23AM

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

but car insurance companies of all people not using it yet. Thought it would be of interest them for identifying risk areas, potential fraud etc?

123.ie are using it

ukoda · 09-02-2016 12:24AM

GJG wrote: »

Fair point.

Nevertheless, I think that, going forward, claims from people who choose not to provide an Eircode might warrant closer scrutiny. If I was running an insurance company, I would certainly make supplying Eircode voluntary - you can choose to take your business elsewhere.

And the reality is, for 70% you'd be able to look up the eircode anyway, even if they don't provide it

plodder · 09-02-2016 08:08AM

clewbays wrote: »

What do you think was that householder's expectation when they ordered a pizza to be delivered to them 68 miles away across the hills? Do you think they expected it to be oven hot? Did they expect free delivery? Would you ring a pizza shop that was 68 miles away if you were hungry there is a very popular Pizza Hut in Holyhead if you want the number?

The situation was hypothetical. In terms of customer expectation take the example of an appliance repair guy. The customer doesn't really care where he has to come from, but the repair guy won't be too happy if he doesn't know where he's going until he keys it into his satnav. So, I think we're probably agreed then that such small businesses in these mega routing key areas on the West coast won't be advertising in this way.

gizmo555 · 09-02-2016 10:46AM

plodder wrote: »

In terms of customer expectation take the example of an appliance repair guy. The customer doesn't really care where he has to come from, but the repair guy won't be too happy if he doesn't know where he's going until he keys it into his satnav.

This is the main reason some major courier firms, like DHL, have said that Eircode is unsuitable for their needs and that they won't be using it. Because the codes are non-sequential, they can't take a list of them and use them to plan the order in which a driver is to make his deliveries.

oscarBravo · 09-02-2016 10:56AM

gizmo555 wrote: »

This is the main reason some major courier firms, like DHL, have said that Eircode is unsuitable for their needs and that they won't be using it. Because the codes are non-sequential, they can't take a list of them and use them to plan the order in which a driver is to make his deliveries.

Of course they can.

ukoda · 09-02-2016 11:25AM

gizmo555 wrote: »

This is the main reason some major courier firms, like DHL, have said that Eircode is unsuitable for their needs and that they won't be using it. Because the codes are non-sequential, they can't take a list of them and use them to plan the order in which a driver is to make his deliveries.

This is the biggest red herring out their. It's completely spurious reasoning.

Big companies like DHL do not work like that. They have automated systems that print sorting labels. Have you ever gotten a package from them that didn't have their sticker on it with the thier codes and barcodes? No.

The list of delivery companies who are adopting eircode is now:

An Post
Nightline
DHL (yes they actually confirmed they are implementing it, begrudgingly)
Fastway

plodder · 09-02-2016 02:23PM

gizmo555 wrote: »

This is the main reason some major courier firms, like DHL, have said that Eircode is unsuitable for their needs and that they won't be using it. Because the codes are non-sequential, they can't take a list of them and use them to plan the order in which a driver is to make his deliveries.

Correct. They can't do it without paying for software which decodes the random code and converts it to something meaningful.

TheChizler · 09-02-2016 03:06PM

plodder wrote: »

Correct. They can't do it without paying for software which decodes the random code and converts it to something meaningful.

In fairness with any type of code they were going to have to pay someone to integrate it.

plodder · 09-02-2016 03:14PM

TheChizler wrote: »

In fairness with any type of code they were going to have to pay someone to integrate it.

Here we go - round in circles again. With most (if not all) other codes you don't have to integrate anything. You can do basic routing and sorting just by looking at the codes. Well and good if your business would benefit from a software solution, but don't force it on everyone..

Ah, but that's such a 1970's solution blah blah blah .... :rolleyes:

I'm doing my best to stay on topic here, but when I see this stuff, I have to answer it.

TheChizler · 09-02-2016 03:20PM

plodder wrote: »

Here we go - round in circles again. With most (if not all) other codes you don't have to integrate anything. You can do basic routing and sorting just by looking at the codes. Well and good if your business would benefit from a software solution, but don't force it on everyone..

Ah, but that's such a 1970's solution blah blah blah .... :rolleyes:

I'm doing my best to stay on topic here, but when I see this stuff, I have to answer it.

We're talking about DHL here, DHL aren't going to be hand sorting parcels except in the rare case of power outages or system failure. They certainly won't be hand sorting parcels with only an Eircode on them, there'll be addresses as well. Realistically they'll implement some computerised lookup for Eircode that will be cross checked with the address.

plodder · 09-02-2016 03:33PM

TheChizler wrote: »

We're talking about DPD here, DPD aren't going to be hand sorting parcels except in the rare case of power outages or system failure. They certainly won't be hand sorting parcels with only an Eircode on them, there'll be addresses as well. Realistically they'll implement some computerised lookup for Eircode that will be cross checked with the address.

If they do all delivery in house then they will have software obviously. But they would prefer an open system that doesn't depend on a database which converts random codes to something useful. This is what they have actually said. They have their own systems already. They don't want to have to license ECAD. This extra step of converting the random code to a real location has no value for these companies. It only adds cost.

As for the small guy, (man with a van) he shouldn't need software at all. He might be happy to do routing by hand. As above, if a particular software solution adds value, wonderful. But, don't force software on people just to decode an artificially created code.

TheChizler · 09-02-2016 03:51PM

plodder wrote: »

If they do all delivery in house then they will have software obviously. But they would prefer an open system that doesn't depend on a database which converts random codes to something useful. This is what they have actually said. They have their own systems already. They don't want to have to license ECAD. This extra step of converting the random code to a real location has no value for these companies. It only adds cost.

Sure it does, it allows them to implement error checking, it pinpoints non-unique addresses, it saves money by not having to call the customer for directions or redeliver after originally delivering to the wrong address, or employ extra customer service staff to take complaints when things are misdelivered. They can implement a solution that would practically eliminate these costs for probably only a few grand per year after the initial integration. It's up to individual companies to decide if the savings made would be worth the cost of implementing the system.

I don't know anything about how DHL are implementing Eircode, just that they have made the commercial decision that it makes sense.

Mountainsandh · 09-02-2016 04:00PM

I would be reluctant to give my precise address ie Eircode to Lidl, or other chains online or in brick and mortar stores.
I have no problem keying in a postcode, or telling the cashier, in France, on the other hand, for the simple reason that this little number is only part of my address. (I won't be bothered with unsolicited post for example)

Edit : relative to an older post, couldn't see more recent ones for some reason.

plodder · 09-02-2016 04:11PM

TheChizler wrote: »

Sure it does, it allows them to implement error checking, it pinpoints non-unique addresses, it saves money by not having to call the customer for directions or redeliver after originally delivering to the wrong address, or employ extra customer service staff to take complaints when things are misdelivered. They can implement a solution that would practically eliminate these costs for probably only a few grand per year after the initial integration. It's up to individual companies to decide if the savings made would be worth the cost of implementing the system.

I don't know anything about how DHL are implementing Eircode, just that they have made the commercial decision that it makes sense.

Unique addressing, error correction etc are different issues and not dependent on the specific way Eircode was designed. Companies like DHL might or might not value these things. What we are discussing here is the specific point of a database that maps random codes to locations. That was what DHL etc criticised from the start, not the unique addressing etc.

Error correction and unique identifiers could have been part of the design of an open code which was based on a hierarchy down to small areas, but it wasn't unfortunately.

TheChizler · 09-02-2016 04:29PM

plodder wrote: »

Error correction and unique identifiers could have been part of the design of an open code which was based on a hierarchy down to small areas, but it wasn't unfortunately.

Well they're in this design and DHL have made a business decision to implement this design, there must be more positives than negatives in their view. I can only speculate as to how exactly they're implementing it. That's all I know so can't comment further.

plodder · 09-02-2016 04:31PM

TheChizler wrote: »

Well they're in this design and DHL have made a business decision to implement this design, there must be more positives than negatives in their view. I can only speculate as to how exactly they're implementing it. That's all I know so can't comment further.

As a matter of interest, is there any link to DHL saying they were going to implement it?

marmurr1916 · 09-02-2016 05:25PM

plodder wrote: »

Here we go - round in circles again. With most (if not all) other codes you don't have to integrate anything. You can do basic routing and sorting just by looking at the codes. Well and good if your business would benefit from a software solution, but don't force it on everyone..

Ah, but that's such a 1970's solution blah blah blah .... :rolleyes:

I'm doing my best to stay on topic here, but when I see this stuff, I have to answer it.

I don't think any business in the UK whose business involves deliveries on a national or even regional scale doesn 't use some form of route and delivery planning software.

Unless you're just delivering to a restricted area on a small scale ( 100s of deliveries rather than 1000s) it makes sense to spend money on planning software.

Individual businesses in Ireland can decide whether or not to use Eircode integrated planning software. For some it will make sense, for others it won't. Just like any other decision that businesses make all the time.

Sam Russell · 09-02-2016 06:10PM

Mod: Final warning.

Do not debate the design, no matter what you think of it. That has been done to death already.

This thread is about implementation, not design. It appears to me to be the same few arguing on both sides.

Sam Russell · 10-02-2016 09:46AM

Mod: I will take action against those trying to take discussion off topic.

If you want to open a new thread, then do so but be aware that repeating the same arguments ad nauseum will be stopped. I am not trying to stifle discussion but I have had enough of the two groups - one for the other anti - fighting over the Eircode design.

I have no vested interest in Eircode one way or the other. You are free to look back at my posts on the subject.

ukoda · 10-02-2016 11:29AM

i think i said DHL earlier in the thread (EDIT: maybe i didn't i can't find it), i actually meant DPD (thats not to say DHL aren't implementing it, i don't know, i just used the wrong acronym, apologies)

for those looking for public statements, the below article has quotes from 2 companies confirming they are implementing eircode

DPD stating its very low uptake, but then again, of course it would be if theres no where to use it, its a chicken and egg situation. given the fact that they are going to the bother of implementing it, must mean they think theres some use in it, although they are very reluctant to say anything positive, probably because they are a member of the "eircode is useless for our members FTAI" and are trying to save face.

DPD and TomTom:

“We’re seeing virtually no uptake from our customer base as yet,” said Maeve Dwyer of delivery company DPD.
“We are working on a plan to incorporate them into our system but, because of the way they are set up, it’s likely that, even when we have them incorporated, we’ll have to continue to use our own routing system in tandem with them.”
A spokeswoman for TomTom sat nav systems, meanwhile, said the company was “currently working on incorporating Eircode postal codes into our maps and devices.
“However, we are unable to confirm an availability date at this time.”

from here:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ambulance-service-to-use-eircode-postal-system-1.2512920

article also confirmed national ambulance service implementing it

ukoda · 10-02-2016 01:33PM

Fine Gael election leaflet in the door today, addressed to the householder with my full address and eircode on it

gizmo555 · 10-02-2016 03:20PM

ukoda wrote: »

DPD stating its very low uptake, but then again, of course it would be if theres no where to use it, its a chicken and egg situation.

Absolutely. It would make you wonder why, if the government is so sure Eircode is an important piece of public infrastructure, it doesn't simply instruct An Post to get with the programme and start using it as intended immediately.

ukoda wrote: »

because they are a member of the "eircode is useless for our members FTAI" and are trying to save face.

There's a variety of members in the FTAI and it's hardly surprising that there are differing views. DHL and TNT UPS are members, and they've both said they won't implement Eircode. The FTAI as a body - presumably indicating the opinions of a majority of its members - remains of the view that Eircode is seriously flawed. Its spokesman reiterated this view on RTE Radio last month. No doubt DPD is using it for what it considers good commercial reasons. DHL & TNT UPS have their own good reasons why they think it's not worth their while.

Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

Comments