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Illegal Downloading

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 832 ✭✭✭Notavirus.exe


    I think the person uploading the copyrighted material should be the one to blame, not the person downloading it.

    People say piracy hurts the industry. No it doesn't. Let's say I don't want to buy a film, the makers won't be getting any of my money. Whether I decide to download it or not doesn't affect the copyright holders.

    Piracy isn't stealing. Piracy is downloading a copy of a digital item.

    For legal reasons, I am not recommending that you pirate anything.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 30,634 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    The idea of a 'Spotify for Film' is a nice one, although pretty much impossible to implement. Spotify is already an ethical disaster in terms of supporting artists - and that's despite the fact music rights are generally simpler, the raw data significantly smaller and the overall costs generally far less than film. For consumers, it's a no-brainer, obviously, but it sadly comes at a cost to the people who deserve more (even Spotify themselves are hemorrhaging money). At least live music allows musicians to make a living in a 'free music' world, even if it puts significant pressure on independent to mid-tier artists to keep themselves active and visible.

    Trying to match Spotify's almost all-encompassing scope in film would be a logistical nightmare in the first place. And for a consumer-friendly subscription service it would then be restrictively over-expensive to actively maintain. That's not just rights issues either - I believe it would almost inevitably lead to a substantial decrease in the variety of films being released in the first place, since there'd be a far less sustainable market overall. Even a service as large as Netflix can't manage anything more than a tiny fraction of the catalogue of cinema. Subscription based film streaming services are going to stay limited in scope, barring dramatically increasing their subscription fee or radical - and I mean radical - alterations in the way films are made, funded and distributed. It's a nice idea, but IMO nearly totally unfeasible.

    It's always the independent artists I think it's important to consider, because the huge studios will continue to adapt and prosper. In film, the digital marketplace has not evolved sufficiently to support world, classic & independent cinema. One of the reasons I continue to spend so much money on Blu-Ray and cinema trips is to support the companies ensuring great films are translated, restored and released in the first place. It's already a struggle for these distributors and filmmakers to keep doing what they're doing, and illegally downloading won't help. Really the only time I'd be inclined to download anything is if it genuinely simply is not available legally in any way, shape or form.

    It would be amazing to see a more robust digital space for films outside the mainstream, and I'd be first on board if there was. A 'Steam for films' is an intriguing prospect for sure (although Steam do already have a tiny film section!) - difficult to implement, but would be a great way to perhaps start a 'premium' location to distribute niche and leftfield films outside the theatrical and physical media space. Something with a 'library' and more sensible ownership options. Ultimately, I think the problem facing that sort of prospect is as much a consumer one as it is the backwards studios - paying for digital film is simply not something a very large proportion of the audience is used to, perhaps even prepared to, [ay for especially when you can pay 8.99 a month or nothing. You can't blame them in that regard, but beyond a major shift in attitudes, I think it might be up to smaller companies to try and win over the enthusiast audience that continues to prop up the Blu-Ray market with a more attractive offering.

    On a tangential aside, happy to hear Arrow Films are going to be supporting Second Run films from here on out. Think it's beyond fantastic these smaller companies are working together to make sure there's still a significant choice of film out there :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    The idea of a 'Spotify for Film' is a nice one, although pretty much impossible to implement.

    How is that not just Netflix?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭SimonTemplar


    Zillah wrote: »
    How is that not just Netflix?

    It can take a long time for new Blu-Ray releases to appear there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Does new music instantly appear on Spotify?
    (I genuinely don't know, I don't use it all that much)

    There's no reason Netflix and similar couldn't take over the TV/DVD section of the market eventually. It goes Cinema -> Streaming, rather than Cinema-> DVD -> TV -> Streaming.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Right Turn Clyde


    Zillah wrote: »
    Does new music instantly appear on Spotify?
    (I genuinely don't know, I don't use it all that much)

    There's no reason Netflix and similar couldn't take over the TV/DVD section of the market eventually. It goes Cinema -> Streaming, rather than Cinema-> DVD -> TV -> Streaming.

    Yes new music appears on Spotify instantly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 155 ✭✭Classic Rock Man


    Someone who isnt me hasnt payed for movies since 2008.

    Someone who isnt me would pay for a good movie in the theatres every now and then though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭Chain Smoker


    I download absolutely loads. Spend an absolute ton on films too, to the point that I doubt I'd be spending much more if I wasn't downloading to be honest.


    It's the music industry that I screw out of it, don't even go to gigs, have absolutely no excuse for it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭SimonTemplar


    I'll happily rent a movie on iTunes (and would do so with Amazon if it were available in Ireland).

    However, if Apple/Distributors are greedy enough to only provide a purchase option for three times the cost of a rental, I will get the movie elsewhere.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,633 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    I spend an ass tonne of money each year on the cinema. I don't have an unlimited card becuase I like going to lots of cinemas (and also grew sick of parnell Street after years of unlimited card), I have a Netflix and Spotify subscription too. So I spend well in excess of 500 quid a year on media, more if we include buying games.

    I do pirate movies, and it's 90 percent for ease of use. I buy all my games on steam, all my books on Kindle etc, if there was a nice easy service for buying movies that didn't the lock me in I'd use it. If a movie is good I'll see it in the cinema. Revenant and Spotlight are two recent examples of movies I torrented, then went to see.

    Im also kind of ambivalent to the arguments made by superstar artists (particularly Taylor Swift) about how they deserve X amount of money.

    Poets, photographers, and the vast majority of musicians (think Orchestra here) get paid crap for what they do, and people sometimes buy their stuff, but wouldn't think twice about looking at a photo on imgur or reading a poem off a website. Architects and sculptors make cities beautiful in a tangible way, their art is usually enjoyed mostly by people who didn't pay for it, and sponsored by wealthy patrons. Why are there all these differing philosophies on what art we should pay for and what art we should expect for free.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,599 ✭✭✭ScrubsfanChris


    afatbollix wrote: »
    Most of Netflix stuff is now 5.1 so its just as good as a blue ray.
    Ahem.....
    I'm sorry, but no steaming service comes even close to the picture and audio quality of blu-ray. If you think otherwise then there is something wrong with your setup.

    As regards the main point. Very rarely download films myself, am an avid cinema going and blu-ray collector. It's tv shows mostly for me, and just a few a week at that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,452 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    I'd be willing to give it a try, if I could get more than dialup speeds from UPC/Virgin, or whatever they're calling themselves these days...

    :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭SimonTemplar


    Ahem.....
    I'm sorry, but no steaming service comes even close to the picture and audio quality of blu-ray. If you think otherwise then there is something wrong with your setup.

    As regards the main point. Very rarely download films myself, am an avid cinema going and blu-ray collector. It's tv shows mostly for me, and just a few a week at that.

    Well that's another argument for illegal downloading. I've seen full blu-ray rips of movies on torrent sits at about 20 Gigs versus the 5-6 Gigs you'll get on iTunes HD. I understand that some users will have broadband issues, but at least give the users the choice so they can stream at blu-ray quality if they are able to. Maybe even a full pre-buffer or time-dependent download (like BBC iPlayer) could mitigate that.

    My point is: give us the choice and we'll decide what quality / file size is best for us.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭gar32


    I live in Germany and got a bill for €800 for using torrent for 10 mins. I did not pay it but got a court order 2 years later and had to pay a solicitor to sort it out for me. I still may be given a court date and be fined up too 5k. My VPN when down for those 10 mins.

    I don't down load any more. Netflix and streaming some movies.

    Enjoy the fact you can download if you want.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    I'm a convenience downloader these days. As in too much hard work to record that tv series over several weeks on that box with limited space. Or that tv series that I missed and where the first 3 series are already gone off catch-up tv. Just grab the whole thing of torrents in the space of a couple of hours, sorted. The lawyers would probably argue otherwise but I think I'm not doing anything wrong. It's been released already for home consumption, I've already paid for it, contributed to the value chain. It's just a logistical thing now.
    I've got Sky with most trimmings, I dabble in and out of Netflix, I go the cinema a lot and pay for most of my music unless for old, exotic stuff I'd have trouble sourcing in the first place. I buy actual books a lot and I buy from amazon, too. Now that I see it front of me, I probably spend a fair bit of money every year on media.
    Never been a horder anyway and I wouldn't download any crap and would never download that cam movie, web release, whatever, it isn't worth it. It would only ruin that movie for me. If If I'm that keen to see it I go to the cinema, if not I can wait 'til its on top quality on sky movies or netflix or something.
    I do streamsports occasionally. Tonight for example. I pay a ton for sport subscriptions. And the only match on the box is friggin Westham v Villa, wtf?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Right Turn Clyde


    Boskowski wrote: »
    I do streamsports occasionally. Tonight for example. I pay a ton for sport subscriptions. And the only match on the box is friggin Westham v Villa, wtf?

    Do you support one of the 'big teams'? If you do then your team is on TV at least every ten days, if not every week.

    When it comes to mid-week Premier League fixtures the broadcaster's policy (possibly as part of their contract) has been to showcase the so called 'smaller teams'.

    So imagine being a Villa or West Ham fan. You're only on TV live maybe half a dozen times each year and when you are it's probably against one of the top 6 teams in the table.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭Rubber_Soul


    People say piracy hurts the industry. No it doesn't. Let's say I don't want to buy a film, the makers won't be getting any of my money. Whether I decide to download it or not doesn't affect the copyright holders.

    That may be true of you but your anecdotal evidence doesn't mean anything. There's plenty out there who will download a film or tv show they would have bought or paid to see in the cinema/cable sub.
    Piracy isn't stealing. Piracy is downloading a copy of a digital item.
    This is nonsense. Products can be both tangible and intangible. That no tangible, physical media has been stolen is irrelevant. The fact you're depriving the content creator of money for use of their product makes it theft.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭SpaceCowb0y


    Thank God for torrents! Sure wasn't it himself who gave mankind the intelligence to create such a thing to save us from wasting our hard earned cash on movies that might end up only being a 2 and a half out of 5!

    I watch hundreds of movies every year, literally. I'd be a poor man if i went to see each one in the cinema! If there's something i really want to see that i feel needs to be seen on a big screen i will of course pay my way, for example Star Wars, Interstellar or the latest James Bond movie etc but there's so many movies I end up watching that i'm so glad i didn't end up paying to watch.

    I don't really download torrents anymore anyway, Android boxes that let you stream straight from the web are the way to go these days! Kodi provides all my entertainment these days.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    Do you support one of the 'big teams'? If you do then your team is on TV at least every ten days, if not every week.

    When it comes to mid-week Premier League fixtures the broadcaster's policy (possibly as part of their contract) has been to showcase the so called 'smaller teams'.

    So imagine being a Villa or West Ham fan. You're only on TV live maybe half a dozen times each year and when you are it's probably against one of the top 6 teams in the table.

    I understand your point about being a Villa supporter. But I'm probably not typical, I don't really support a team. I like teams who are playing good football. I like Arsenal - I guess you could say I support them- but would have liked to watch Leicester last night. There were a couple of interesting matches in the title race that day. Well, I suppose there often are. But anyway thats not the point. The point is they (the EPL) make so much money from these sports subscriptions. I have Sky Sports and in and out of BT, too. I should have every single match available to me or at least a selection of a handful. Not one single match.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭jester77


    Boskowski wrote: »
    I understand your point about being a Villa supporter. But I'm probably not typical, I don't really support a team. I like teams who are playing good football. I like Arsenal - I guess you could say I support them- but would have liked to watch Leicester last night. There were a couple of interesting matches in the title race that day. Well, I suppose there often are. But anyway thats not the point. The point is they (the EPL) make so much money from these sports subscriptions. I have Sky Sports and in and out of BT, too. I should have every single match available to me or at least a selection of a handful. Not one single match.

    Yip, it's annoying alright. I like the way Sky handle the Bundesliga. Every 1st and 2nd Liga is shown live, and there is also a channel that rotates between the different games. I see no reason why this could not work for the EPL as well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Right Turn Clyde


    Boskowski wrote: »
    I understand your point about being a Villa supporter. But I'm probably not typical, I don't really support a team. I like teams who are playing good football. I like Arsenal - I guess you could say I support them- but would have liked to watch Leicester last night. There were a couple of interesting matches in the title race that day. Well, I suppose there often are. But anyway thats not the point. The point is they (the EPL) make so much money from these sports subscriptions. I have Sky Sports and in and out of BT, too. I should have every single match available to me or at least a selection of a handful. Not one single match.

    Why should you?

    Season passes are available for NBA, NFL and MLB but that model doesn't exist in this part of the world. Sky tried a scale down version of it some years ago (can't remember the name of it) but it didn't take off.

    What you'd like to have and what you should have are two different things.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Well that's another argument for illegal downloading. I've seen full blu-ray rips of movies on torrent sits at about 20 Gigs versus the 5-6 Gigs you'll get on iTunes HD.

    I'll eat my hat if any significant percentage of people could tell the difference between a well encoded 6GB H.264 file and a 20GB version. The extra bandwidth is mostly excessive placebo bloating.
    My point is: give us the choice and we'll decide what quality / file size is best for us.

    They have to pay for every byte of bandwidth they use to deliver their content. They've spent millions in optimising their systems to minimise wasted traffic. They've no intention of multiplying their costs by ten to indulge the 1% of people that would notice the difference between a 2GB (let alone 5-6) feature and a 20GB version - and they're right not to.

    We're long past the days of needing massive bandwidth to get decent image quality, modern codecs like AVC and HEVC can do extraordinary things with a meagre amount of data.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    People say piracy hurts the industry. No it doesn't. Let's say I don't want to buy a film, the makers won't be getting any of my money. Whether I decide to download it or not doesn't affect the copyright holders.

    Well, it does.

    If you download something without paying for it, the creator or creators of that thing don't get the money that they would get if you had bought it.

    If you don't want to buy it but still want to experience it, you're essentially saying that you want it but are unwilling to pay.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,116 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    I think the solution would be something along the lines of a netflix + steam option for film, not just either or. I mean I don't even own something that can play a DVD any more and more will join me over time. As for teh cinema experience sure we will be doing that on VR soon :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭satguy


    I have the top 360MB pack from Virgin/UPC,, it is €95 per month, I also pay my TV licence. (Total is about €100 pm)
    I did have Netflix but due to some strange peering by Virgin/UPC it never worked the way I would have liked..

    Then there is the fact that we in Ireland only get a very small and older part of others countries streaming catalog, (we get shafted ?)

    We have a teenage son, he would go the the cinema once a month.. A €20 spot and and he's out the door happy..
    He also has a nice mobile phone and chews through data, I top up his phone at €20 per month..

    Total cost so far per month for "media" is €140 per month..

    I think they get more than enough of my hard earned money,, So as a nice treat for myself, I have a Debrid account at €3 per month and can if I choose, can watch anything I like, when I like, from any channel I like, in HD 720p or Full HD 1080p..

    Am in fact looking forward to Season 4 of Banshee..


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I am paying for music for the first time in almost 15 years through spotify. The service is so good that I can't live without it. I have started buying more games than I ever have due to the convenience of the steam platform. Until the film industry can make it easier and more convenient to use their service at a reasonable cost, I will continue to torrent everything free of charge.

    A service like popcorntime except with a paid subscription would be the ideal. I find netflix too restrictive at present.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,316 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Downloading music opened me to various artists that I didn't know exit, and to music genres I now love. Have gone to a few concerts out of this new found music. Generally buy the CD's now.

    With movies, if it's good, I'll generally goto the cinema to watch it. Quite a few movies that I've looked at in the past year were either foreign language, or small release B movie.
    Zillah wrote: »
    I'll eat my hat if any significant percentage of people could tell the difference between a well encoded 6GB H.264 file and a 20GB version. The extra bandwidth is mostly excessive placebo bloating.
    The main difference between 6GB and 12GB is that the latter has surround channel, the former will only usually have stereo. Anything above 15GB is generally bad encoding by newer groups, or multiple DTS audio streams in it.
    Zillah wrote: »
    We're long past the days of needing massive bandwidth to get decent image quality, modern codecs like AVC and HEVC can do extraordinary things with a meagre amount of data.
    HEVC is awesome. I can see it reducing the size by a lot. Not sure if it'll have any affect on the size of the DTS part?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,119 ✭✭✭shrapnel222


    Kev W wrote: »
    Well, it does.

    If you download something without paying for it, the creator or creators of that thing don't get the money that they would get if you had bought it.

    If you don't want to buy it but still want to experience it, you're essentially saying that you want it but are unwilling to pay.

    not true. We all buy books, films, CDs and pass them round amongst friends and family. is that illegal also?

    most of the stuff i have bought over the last 20 years has been second hand, so even though i've "paid" for it, the artist hasn't seen a penny more.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    not true. We all buy books, films, CDs and pass them round amongst friends and family. is that illegal also?

    most of the stuff i have bought over the last 20 years has been second hand, so even though i've "paid" for it, the artist hasn't seen a penny more.

    I was responding to this comment, which essentially claims that there's no difference between illegally downloading a movie and not having it at all:
    People say piracy hurts the industry. No it doesn't. Let's say I don't want to buy a film, the makers won't be getting any of my money. Whether I decide to download it or not doesn't affect the copyright holders.

    I was just pointing out that there is a difference to the creators. Nothing to do with sharing. If you share something that's been bought, the creators have already gotten their "cut" of that. If you create a copy, you've created something that the creator will never be paid for.


This discussion has been closed.
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