Why do you hate Irish?

XR3i · 29-01-2016 05:49PM

i ran to the shop

i bought myself a bar of chocolate

XR3i · 29-01-2016 05:49PM

i ran to the shop (rith mé go dtí an siopa)

i bought myself a bar of chocolate (ceannaigh mébarra seacláide)

sryanbruen · 29-01-2016 06:29PM

XR3i wrote: »

i ran to the shop (rith mé go dtí an siopa)

i bought myself a bar of chocolate (ceannaigh mébarra seacláide)

Cheannaigh mé féin barra seacláide*

Hammer89 · 29-01-2016 06:34PM

I like the way there's no Irish for certain words so instead of making one we just use the English.

"Ta me go maith agus is fuath liom hair clippers."

"Chuaig me go deas agus bhi raibh extension lead."

sryanbruen · 29-01-2016 06:37PM

Hammer89 wrote: »

I like the way there's no Irish for certain words so instead of making one we just use the English.

"Ta me go maith agus is fuath liom hair clippers."

"Chuaig me go deas agus bhi raibh extension lead."

WOW, I love how the grammar is so inaccurate here.

bearrthóirí gruaige - hair clippers
cábla sínidh - extension lead

Tá mé go maith agus is fuath liom bearrthóirí gruaige
Chuaigh mé go deas (I went nice.....??) agus ní raibh cábla sínidh (extension lead didn't???)

Hammer89 · 29-01-2016 06:39PM

You're literally in third year, aren't you? You had Irish an hour ago. I last had it a decade ago so let's keep things in perspective.

sryanbruen · 29-01-2016 06:42PM

Hammer89 wrote: »

You're literally in third year, aren't you? You had Irish an hour ago. I last had it a decade ago so let's keep things in perspective.

Is ea, tá mé sa tríú bliain. Conas atá fhios agat? - Yes, I am in third year. How do you know?

Ní raibh as Gaeilge agam uair ó shin - I didn't have Irish an hour ago.

maudgonner · 29-01-2016 06:44PM

sryanbruen wrote: »

Cheannaigh mé féin barra seacláide*

Cheartaigh mé aistriúchán agus bhí mé féin mícheart

(I think the original was fine but if you want to be pedantic "cheannaigh mé barra seacláide dom féin" is closer to the English)

But nitpicking other people's Irish is what turns many off using whatever Gaeilge they do have, and I hate to see it happen tbh.

sryanbruen · 29-01-2016 06:45PM

maudgonner wrote: »

Cheartaigh mé aistriúchán agus bhí mé féin mícheart

(I think the original was fine but if you want to be pedantic "cheannaigh mé barra seacláide dom féin" is closer to the English)

But nitpicking other people's Irish is what turns many off using whatever Gaeilge they do have, and I hate to see it happen tbh.

Yes. I knew Cheannaigh mé féin sounded wrong. I couldn't think of where to put "féin" since he said "I bought myself".

Hammer89 · 29-01-2016 06:45PM

sryanbruen wrote: »

Is ea, tá mé sa tríú bliain. Conas atá fhios agat? - Yes, I am in third year. How do you know?

You said so the other day?

sryanbruen · 29-01-2016 06:46PM

Hammer89 wrote: »

You said so the other day?

Tá brón orm. Ní dhearna dearmad. - Oh sorry. I forgot.

maudgonner · 29-01-2016 06:48PM

Hammer89 wrote: »

I like the way there's no Irish for certain words so instead of making one we just use the English.

"Ta me go maith agus is fuath liom hair clippers."

"Chuaig me go deas agus bhi raibh extension lead."

I like it too. I remember being in conversation with a gang of Connemara people whose Irish was just gorgeous and they were mocking someone for saying rothar.

In Connemara, if you say rothar you've got notions about yourself. The word is bicycle. Mo bhicycle, do bhicycle etc. Much nicer sound to it!

Caoimhgh1n · 29-01-2016 07:13PM

Graces7 wrote: »

"he only does it to annoy because he knows it teases.."

Pardon?

Iwasfrozen · 29-01-2016 08:29PM

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

My name is not modern Irish. Caoimhín is the name now, I personally prefer my spelling, as the gh does slightly change the prononciation.

Changing the grammar of the langauge isn't necessary.

You don't need two new letters to represent a slightly changed sound. Mind you English isn't perfect either so we should aim like Spanish which manages a very phonetic language without a million letters in every word.

It's certainly useful to have words for yes and no!

Iwasfrozen · 29-01-2016 09:00PM

Rabo Karabekian wrote: »

English too, while you're at it. There's a fair few English words where the extra letters are only there as a result of when standardisation came in and have zero impact on the pronunciation. The more I learn (or re-learn) Irish, the more I see that the 'redundant' letters have an impact on the pronunciation.

Yes please! Though I fear getting the cooperation of all Anglophone countries would be a disaster. Irish we can chop and change at leisure.

As I explained to the other poster a good example to follow would be Spanish. Spanish isn't perfect but manages a very regular writing system. There's so reason Irish can't be the same.

Would we be standardising Irish with English sounds? That's not going to work, and would make zero sense. It would be like trying to spell French words with English phonetics, despite English phonetics not being able to comprehend some fairly basic differences in sound.

You can't simplify a writing system with sounds so I can't answer your question. It should be obvious though that all languages pronounce the sane symbols in different ways. That doesn't stop them simplifying their writing system.

That's not really how language works. If there's a need for it, Irish will develop a 'yes' and 'no'.

Yes it is. Tomorrow morning Foras could legitimize the already widely used "sea" and "ní".

XR3i · 29-01-2016 09:56PM

níl sé eascai ar cor ar bith (it's not easy)

sryanbruen · 29-01-2016 10:20PM

XR3i wrote: »

níl sé eascai ar cor ar bith (it's not easy)

it's not easy for any situation?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 30-01-2016 12:48AM

What a pity we don;t have an Irish langauge forum you could all post it....

Graces7 · 30-01-2016 09:58AM

Hammer89 wrote: »

I like the way there's no Irish for certain words so instead of making one we just use the English.

"Ta me go maith agus is fuath liom hair clippers."

"Chuaig me go deas agus bhi raibh extension lead."

I noticed that when I at through a 40 minute sermon in Irish in Ballyferriter.. made me smile..

Graces7 · 30-01-2016 10:01AM

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Pardon?

A Lewis Carroll quotation.. Alice, one of the queens..." Speak roughly to your little boy/ And smack him when he sneezes/He only does it to annoy/Because he knows it teases.." Fitted the situation here admirably although I doubt you will agree!

Rabo Karabekian · 30-01-2016 04:38PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You can't simplify a writing system with sounds so I can't answer your question. It should be obvious though that all languages pronounce the sane symbols in different ways. That doesn't stop them simplifying their writing system.

I was responding to you when you suggested 'The vast majority of words could be wrote pheonetically with fewer letters'. Considering that a lot of 'extra' words help with pronunciation, particularly in Irish, then it's not practical to simply 'drop' words when you don't understand how they fit.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes it is. Tomorrow morning Foras could legitimize the already widely used "sea" and "ní".

Still not how language works. Are 'sea' and 'ní' being used by Irish speakers to express simple yes and no? Then Irish already has what you're looking for.

Ally Dick · 30-01-2016 05:15PM

The older I get, the more little bits of Irish I put into sentences when talking to people ! It's weird. I didn't like Irish at school but that was mostly because all of my Irish teachers were appalling, and didn't teach it very well. I think what used to get my goat was the amount of words that didn't pronounce like they spelled e.g. lots of 'th' in words. Also I couldn't stand all of that "tuiseal" nonsense

sryanbruen · 30-01-2016 05:22PM

Ally Dick wrote: »

The older I get, the more little bits of Irish I put into sentences when talking to people ! It's weird. I didn't like Irish at school but that was mostly because all of my Irish teachers were appalling, and didn't teach it very well. I think what used to get my goat was the amount of words that didn't pronounce like they spelled e.g. lots of 'th' in words. Also I couldn't stand all of that "tuiseal" nonsense

"tuiseal" - case (i.e. vocative, genitive)??

It's not their fault though because that's the way the syllabus tells them to teach. Even though it shouldn't be like that at all!

Iwasfrozen · 30-01-2016 05:52PM

Rabo Karabekian wrote: »

I was responding to you when you suggested 'The vast majority of words could be wrote pheonetically with fewer letters'. Considering that a lot of 'extra' words help with pronunciation, particularly in Irish, then it's not practical to simply 'drop' words when you don't understand how they fit.

Who said we should drop words? It should be obvious to you that Irish includes many unnecessary letters. The huge numbers of digraphs are a case in point and would be unnecessary if Irish were to adopt the ISO standard Latin alphabet.

Diagraphs resulting from eclipses, lenitions, double letters that result in only minor if any changes in phonetics (like the t and double n in Itheann) could be removed fully (Ihean sé) and the unecessary "caol le caol, leathan le leathan" spelling rule scrapped . A standard spoken dialect sgould also be adapted and taught universally in schools.

Still not how language works. Are 'sea' and 'ní' being used by Irish speakers to express simple yes and no? Then Irish already has what you're looking for.

Yes they are but only in informal settings. The words should be legitimized.

Rabo Karabekian · 30-01-2016 07:23PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Who said we should drop words? It should be obvious to you that Irish includes many unnecessary letters. The huge numbers of digraphs are a case in point and would be unnecessary if Irish were to adopt the ISO standard Latin alphabet.

Diagraphs resulting from eclipses, lenitions, double letters that result in only minor if any changes in phonetics (like the t and double n in Itheann) could be removed fully (Ihean sé) and the unecessary "caol le caol, leathan le leathan" spelling rule scrapped . A standard spoken dialect sgould also be adapted and taught universally in schools.

Yes they are but only in informal settings. The words should be legitimized.

Sorry, I meant letters, not words.

Standardising words through omitting letters is not going to be particularly beneficial, can make understanding different tenses more difficult, and can lose any sort of etymological understanding of the word. Whatever about English, with Irish this will definitely impact on Irish with regards to pronunciation.

And as for legitimising the words: this will happen when people keep using the words. They don't need a government body to 'okay' it for them. Same way that you will occasionally hear 'ag walkail' and 'mo bhicycle'. If they catch on, then they are Irish.

recipio · 30-01-2016 07:23PM

Ally Dick wrote: »

The older I get, the more little bits of Irish I put into sentences when talking to people ! It's weird. I didn't like Irish at school but that was mostly because all of my Irish teachers were appalling, and didn't teach it very well. I think what used to get my goat was the amount of words that didn't pronounce like they spelled e.g. lots of 'th' in words. Also I couldn't stand all of that "tuiseal" nonsense

Bad habit. I once heard Marion Finucane sign off an interview with an English guest with a 'sin mar a ta se ' It sounded unbelievably silly and pompous.
I say again compulsory Irish is a tool of the DeValera version of how to run a country and I think we have all had a sickener of that. Its time to face reality and allow our students to choose Irish only if they want it.

Iwasfrozen · 30-01-2016 08:00PM

Rabo Karabekian wrote: »

Sorry, I meant letters, not words.

Standardising words through omitting letters is not going to be particularly beneficial, can make understanding different tenses more difficult, and can lose any sort of etymological understanding of the word. Whatever about English, with Irish this will definitely impact on Irish with regards to pronunciation.

And as for legitimising the words: this will happen when people keep using the words. They don't need a government body to 'okay' it for them. Same way that you will occasionally hear 'ag walkail' and 'mo bhicycle'. If they catch on, then they are Irish.

For a native speaker it won't make any difference in terms of difficulty and for a learner it takes very little effort to learn "v" = "bh" "w" = "mh" etc. For a totally new learner it will make no difference at all.

For etymology it won't make any difference either. Take for example the "madra" the genative case would be "do wadra" but the root would remain unchanged. This is already done in Welsh and poses no burden to learners. In fact that language is in a stronger position than Irish.

Informally yes I agree with you but in a primarily academic language like Irish it's important that changes be institutionalized.

sryanbruen · 30-01-2016 08:04PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

For a native speaker it won't make any difference in terms of difficulty and for a learner it takes very little effort to learn "v" = "bh" "w" = "mh" etc.

For etymology it won't make any difference either. Take for example the "madra" the genative case would be "do wadra" but the root would remain unchanged. This is already done in Welsh and poses no burden to learners. In fact that language is in a stronger position than Irish.

Informally yes I agree with you but in a primarily academic language like Irish it's important that changes be institutionalized.

Would that not be the possessive adjective? The genitive case would be AN mhadra. And to the other posts, Irish should remain unchanged. It should not change its complex grammar or have an actual word for yes and no. These things is what makes Irish interesting to learn. If it hadn't these things, it would be uninteresting and Ní bheadh grá agam don Ghaeilge! - I wouldn't love the Irish language.

Dughorm · 30-01-2016 08:05PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Why include it, other than to keep a lobby group comprised of parasites living off the tax-payer happy?

Who are the parasites? Irish Teachers?

Include it because Irish people should be aware of their national languages perhaps?

Sleepy wrote: »

There are many practical reasons for replacing Irish with a modern language but the key one remains the same: it increases the number of people with whom the student can communicate.

Because we already speak a global language as one of our languages this isn't a "key" reason - besides we, as a nation, are shocking, at additional language acquisition, despite it being optional - an unfortunate trait we share with most English speaking countries.

Sleepy wrote:

So the cultural importance of Irish is to enable ridiculous loopholes for drunk drivers?

Nope. Any idea what the answer might actually be?

Iwasfrozen · 30-01-2016 08:08PM

sryanbruen wrote: »

Would that not be the possessive adjective? The genitive case would be AN mhadra. And to the other posts, Irish should remain unchanged. It should not change its complex grammar or have an actual word for yes and no. These things is what makes Irish interesting to learn. If it hadn't these things, it would be uninteresting and Ní bheadh grá agam don Ghaeilge! - I wouldn't love the Irish language.

Ah probably, I get mixed up with those sometimes.

I'm not saying the spoken grammar should change. Just the illogical writing system. I don't see any reason why Irish limits itself by not adopting the ISO standard Latin alphabet. Words are needlessly long with many digraphs as a result.

You may not want Irish to lose its complex grammar but you may not have a choice if you want the language to be revived. I remember one hypothesis for the lack of cases in English many foreigners who settled in Britain, Danes and Normans spoke broken simplified English and this became institutionalized.

If Irish ever is revived the new speakers aren't going to have perfect grammar. There's going to be simplification, a hell of a lot more bearlachas and some cases might be completely dropped.

Why do you hate Irish?

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