I'm glad I'm not a student any more....

Jimmy444 · 27-01-2016 08:36PM

strelok wrote: »

*takes a sip of tea*

I think you may be onto something

http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/crime-prevention/keeping-safe/consent-is-everything.htm

_Kaiser_ · 27-01-2016 08:54PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Don't drink to excess. Stay with mates around you if you do. Avoid drugs. Wear a blobby on the knobby. Don't stick your langer in loopers/don't let loopers stick their langer in you.

Wibbs course for the Kidz(™)©

I bet I'm not the only one who read that to the tune of..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5giWfpANMac

Snickers Man · 27-01-2016 10:08PM

Candie wrote: »

I see no harm in talking about consent. I see no harm in educating both men and women about taking responsibility for their choices. I see no harm in helping people who will be trying to fit in to see that they don't have to agree to things they're not comfortable with. I see no harm in reminding people that persuasion is not seduction and persistence doesn't equal permission. I see no harm in talking about the ways mixed signals can be misinterpreted, and how clarity is important, for both genders.

I see no harm in telling young men that there's nothing unusual about not drowning in sexual encounters all the time and that it doesn't make them a failure if they don't want casual sex. Or telling girls that being called a prude is better than doing things you feel you may regret. I see no harm in telling people that not only do they have a responsibility to be sure they hear 'yes', but that they also have a responsibility to clearly say 'no' if that's what they want.

I don't think it's a bad idea at all. Even if it does no good for the majority, it's not going to do any harm.

In general terms, it's impossible to disagree with you. It's when you get down to specifics that the controversies appear.

So I ask again (even given that somebody has posted that the content will be similar to courses given in Oxford/Cambridge) whose value systems are driving the content, and thereby the emphasis and outcomes of these compulsory workshops?

There isn't a culture or value system in the world that doesn't have strong views on control of sexual behaviour. Whether it is the strict Catholic/Christian "Thou shalt not" outside of the marriage bed or even outside of intent to conceive or the ultra-feminist Andrea Dworkin line that any act of intercourse is the violation of a woman. And including all the various cultural tolerance or otherwise of topics like incest, polygamy, homosexuality and permissiveness.

If the cultural/social limitations that should be put on sexual behaviour, were a topic everybody agreed upon there would be no issue at stake here. But it's not. It is a controversial topic and always has been.

So I think the values driving the content of these seminars should be candidly disclosed and the right to challenge them should be unarguable.

Again. Who devised these courses? What's their angle? What's the harm in asking?

Anita Blow · 27-01-2016 11:12PM

I'm very liberal and wouldn't be conservative in the slightest but I think these workshops are too SJW for me. Perfectly okay with them being voluntary and pitched in a gender neutral manner but it's likely that neither would happen. They're often pitched almost exclusively at males and in such a militant manner that any dissent or disagreement is discouraged by insinuations that the individual involved is a rapist/sexist etc.

The nature of these SU council meetings (having attended them in Trinity myself) is that the minority involved in running the SU are tripping over themselves to come up with the next social justice initiative to promote and get patted on the back by their SU peers.

Letree · 27-01-2016 11:58PM

I wonder what the slant on them is. Is it basically a men are brutes workshop.

the_barfly1 · 28-01-2016 12:06AM

South Park know the score.

SeanW · 29-01-2016 01:46AM

Letree wrote: »

I wonder what the slant on them is. Is it basically a men are brutes workshop.

More than likely.

The_Valeyard wrote: »

To be honest id be livid if I was a first year student forced to attend that sh*te. Its pretty much common sense what is consent and what is not. Most of us here have been well raised to know that 'no means no'. We do not need a class lecture on what is consent and what is not.

Yes, we were. I'm old enough to remember when "no means no" was a feminist rallying cry, back in the 20th century. I agreed with that, it makes sense.

The problem is that feminists are now trying to redefine rape to be much more broad, and it is now a common claim that "no means no" is no longer adequate, and the new requirement is for standards such as "affirmitive consent". This standard is usually interpreted in a manner that is totally sexist (placing higher standards on the man vs. woman) and includes a load of caveats such as being invalid if the woman has been drinking. So anyone (or more specifically any man) who's ever had a shag after a night in Coppers is a rapist. The spirit of Andrea Dworkin lives on.

Meanwhile, people who actually rape, won't pay any heed to this. Did the guys in Cologne on New Years Eve do what they did because they never attended a consent workshop? I doubt it.

Candie wrote: »

From the article quoted in the OP.

I see no harm in talking about consent. I see no harm in educating both men and women about taking responsibility for their choices.

...

I see no harm in telling people that not only do they have a responsibility to be sure they hear 'yes', but that they also have a responsibility to clearly say 'no' if that's what they want.

I don't think it's a bad idea at all. Even if it does no good for the majority, it's not going to do any harm.

There are a number of problems here. If this follows on from the American and to a lesser extent UK models (which it most likely does) the term "responsibility" will not feature, at least not in relation to both parties in an encounter.

upandcumming wrote: »

Those surveys are ridiculous - very easy to skew results. Like even the USI survey from 2013 had only 2,750 respondents - not even 10% of UCD's student population.

Yes, that sounds quite suspect.

R.D. aka MR.D · 29-01-2016 02:11AM

It seems like people have a weird idea that it's only women who can be raped or sexually assaulted. I've experienced first hand a friend of mine being victim of a predatory woman who took advantage of the fact that he was too drunk to know any better.

In addition to that, there was a girl driving around the town I'm from after the clubs let out and offering lifts to drunk lads and then she would pounce on them. Imagine the panic if that was a man doing it! But sure I don't think any fella went to Gards about it.

I certainly hope and I would expect that the course is aimed at both sexes.

There are plenty of women out there that need to be informed that they don't have any right to violate men and should give men the respect that they expect to get from them.

I also think the issue of male sexual assault needs to be taken more seriously. The idea shouldn't automatically be 'only men are guilty of rape'. That's really dismissive and damaging to male survivors.

Ficheall · 29-01-2016 02:17AM

I was eavesdropping, over breakfast in a cafe yesterday, on a table of young women who seemed to be quite the gossips, and one of the weighty issues they touched upon with seemingly little thought, was indirectly, consent.
They mentioned one of their social circle who had apparently been 'done for sexual assault' for groping the arse of another lass in their social circle, and how they would kill him if he tried the same with them, etc, which I suppose I can understand, even if I felt the story was probably not wholly reliable.
However, they then started talking about some other male friend of theirs who was 'creepy' because he would hug them any time he met them, and then I missed what they had been building up to because the waitress came along to take the order of the table beside me and I couldn't hear properly. It bothered me, though, because I regularly hug my friends when I meet them, and I would be livid/gutted if someone said/thought I was creepy for it. Truth be told, I'm pretty sure it would bother me more than someone groping my arse, although that is undeniably out of line (and no, I'm certainly not suggesting vapid gossip is as bad as rape). I guess the solution is for universities to put on a lot more "Don't be a dick/twat/whathaveyou" courses, with a gazillion modules, and for everyone to have a bit more cop on..

irishgrover · 29-01-2016 02:18AM

..............the irony of a course on mutual consent and respect being mandatory....

Cookie_Monster · 29-01-2016 02:56AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Controversial opinion:

They need to also educate students on proper alcohol consumption and decision making

what's proper student alcohol consumption these days? Is it still all 7 days or are they wussing out down at 5 out of 7 now?

Hammer89 · 29-01-2016 02:58AM

I don't see much wrong with this. Sexual assault is an umbrella term for a lot of different sh*t and students may unknowingly commit such a crime under the influence of drink and whatnot.

It's important. Students are thick as sh*t regardless of their Leaving Cert score. They need to know that rape doesn't always involve their mickey. You could insert an AA battery into the arse of a sleeping woman and it constitutes sexual assault.

Hammer89 · 29-01-2016 02:58AM

I don't see much wrong with this. Sexual assault is an umbrella term for a lot of different sh*t and students may unknowingly commit such a crime under the influence of drink and whatnot.

It's important. Students are thick as sh*t regardless of their Leaving Cert score. They need to know that rape doesn't always involve their mickey. You could insert an AA battery into the arse of a sleeping woman and it constitutes sexual assault.

the_syco · 29-01-2016 03:57AM

Deleted User wrote: »

They need to also educate students on proper alcohol consumption and decision making

It's easier to blame white men on all the problems.

snickerpuss wrote: »

Is it possibly a reaction to the TCD SU survey that found that 25% of female and 5% of male students had been subjected to "an unwanted sexual experience". 1 in 4 females seems extremely high.

My answer is a question; what were they asked?
Is being leered at "an unwanted sexual experience"?

upandcumming wrote: »

On a different note, why are universities leading the charge?

Because no-one will offer pay for it?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Primary school is the time that stuff should be taught, before most people become sexually active.

Sexual education is pretty much abstinence in certain catholic schools, so can't see the course being taught correctly.

charlietheminxx wrote: »

Sometimes both parties are off their face and might remember it differently.

When yes is actually no?

Hammer89 wrote: »

It's important. Students are thick as sh*t regardless of their Leaving Cert score. They need to know that rape doesn't always involve their mickey. You could insert an AA battery into the arse of a sleeping woman and it constitutes sexual assault.

Actually, I'd wonder if they were actually given proper sex education to both sexes, would it lower the stats, and the teenage birth rate?

M Anonymous · 29-01-2016 04:06AM

Also don't BE the looper sticking your langer where it isn't wanted.

M Anonymous · 29-01-2016 04:23AM

I don't know. If you look at say Ched Evans in the UK. He is a convicted rapist and he still doesn't understand why. He thought that his mate saying it was alright to give that girl one counted as consent, and he is still spending his girlfriend's dad's money going round courts and tv stations protesting.

And a lot of people agree with him, a lot of people think you can take someone comatose with alcohol and tell your Friend "Go On there" and that that is (a) A big laugh and (b) not illegal and (c) sure she's only a slag anyway.

And maybe that's the reason why it has to be compulsory so that you have at least one chance to say to the people who have "problematic" views on consent because of their upbringing/mentality that the law disagrees with them. And of course it gives those men the opportunity to publically out themselves so that the women can see them and know who they are before they encounter them plastered.

29-01-2016 05:07AM

Could you not simply...stay somewhere else? Would you really say...

I'm soooo glad I'm not a student any more, cos there's this place near Trinity and the rent is huge.

or

I'm soooo glad I'm not a student any more, cos there's this place near UCG and it looks a bit rough

etc. etc.

RayM · 29-01-2016 02:55PM

the_syco wrote: »

It's easier to blame white men on all the problems.

You left out 'straight', dammit. Waaaaahhhh!! It's just so tough being a straight white man.

Some very telling reactions to the 25% figure. Maybe it's skewed by the fact that people who've never had a bad experience are less likely to respond. Maybe it includes women who were 'only' groped, hassled or subjected to unwanted sleazy comments - in which case, it seems possible that people fresh out of school, who view that kind of behaviour as harmless horseplay, might benefit from approaching consent courses with an open mind and a healthy dose of intellectual curiosity.

conorhal · 29-01-2016 03:00PM

Suggest that such courses are better targeted towards asylum reception centers however and the same people promoting them loose the rag......

valoren · 29-01-2016 03:12PM

How are they even able to study with all this raping going on?

FFS, it's just engendering a climate of fear.
There's rape around every corner of the quad these days!

I remember in my college days they handed out a freshers pack that had sections covering things like this.
Don't drink too much, safe sex, pregnancy and even rape.
You're a 3rd level student, so we can assume you have a modicum of intelligence and cop on.
Forcing students to sit through this when a mere leaflet would suffice is insulting their intelligence.

the_syco · 29-01-2016 06:26PM

RayM wrote: »

Some very telling reactions to the 25% figure. Maybe it's skewed by the fact that people who've never had a bad experience are less likely to respond.

I wonder where the men asked the same questions as the women?

Statistically, men are raped a lot in prisons. Having said courses mandatory in prisons would be more helpful.

Polka_Dot · 29-01-2016 08:28PM

RayM wrote: »

You left out 'straight', dammit. Waaaaahhhh!! It's just so tough being a straight white man.

Some very telling reactions to the 25% figure. Maybe it's skewed by the fact that people who've never had a bad experience are less likely to respond. Maybe it includes women who were 'only' groped, hassled or subjected to unwanted sleazy comments - in which case, it seems possible that people fresh out of school, who view that kind of behaviour as harmless horseplay, might benefit from approaching consent courses with an open mind and a healthy dose of intellectual curiosity.

I'm not saying that the 25% who reported an unwanted sexual experience didn't have that experience. But the sample size was extremely small - only about 1,000 students responded, male and female, which is only about 10% of the student population. The reports afterwards all said things like "One in four female students in Trinity have been sexually assaulted," which you simply can't claim with such a small sample.

the_syco wrote: »

I wonder where the men asked the same questions as the women?

They were, yeah

fly_agaric · 29-01-2016 08:41PM

I'm unsure if such courses will ever help the reprobates.
The Trinity student body is about 60 % female, but it needs to be raised further to expunge the stench of patriarchy!:pac:

the_syco · 29-01-2016 08:46PM

Polka_Dot wrote: »

I'm not saying that the 25% who reported an unwanted sexual experience didn't have that experience. But the sample size was extremely small - only about 1,000 students responded, male and female, which is only about 10% of the student population. The reports afterwards all said things like "One in four female students in Trinity have been sexually assaulted," which you simply can't claim with such a small sample.

So 25% of 10%, otherwise known as 2.5%? Obviously not such a great attention grabber. I'd wonder did they hold the poll all day, or at a certain part of the day, and was it all over the college, or only nearby halls that catered to specific classes?

Polka_Dot · 29-01-2016 08:52PM

the_syco wrote: »

So 25% of 10%, otherwise known as 2.5%? Obviously not such a great attention grabber. I'd wonder did they hold the poll all day, or at a certain part of the day, and was it all over the college, or only nearby halls that catered to specific classes?

It was an online survey sent out in the student union weekly email, which a lot of people don't actually read or if they do, they skim through it

SeanW · 30-01-2016 02:56PM

upandcumming wrote: »

On a different note, why are universities leading the charge?

You have to understand what's going on in modern Western universities. These have lurched very radically towards the far left over the last 50 years or so, but it's gone to ridiculous extremes since maybe the last decade or so.

As usual, Pat Condell nails it in this explanation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjN8xP0i6Ak

If you read up about "micro aggressions" "safe spaces" "trigger warnings" etc, it will all become clear. Edit: Or at least as clear as this insanity can be.

thee glitz · 03-02-2016 09:59AM

Rumour has it that Trinity are also considering a mandatory "Why making false allegations of rape is bad mkay" seminar.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-02-2016 10:09AM

I was recently a mature student in the UK. I played sport and went on uni sports nights out. I heard the craic and my mates were joking about things would definately count as rape. I don't mean chasing someone down a street and raping them at knife point. I mean subtlety pressuring women into doing things they weren't into.

I don't know if those women were traumatised by the experience or not. I spoke to an aunt who was pressured into sex at a uni party in the 70s. She was traumatised by the experience and I went back and heard my uni mates talk about doing the same thing to women the previous night. They had no idea that they could have been causing harm.

You can make fun of these classes if you like but there is definately need to educate children about what's on and what isn't.

cowboyBuilder · 03-02-2016 10:52AM

So all men should be assumed to be rapists then ?

So should everyone take courses on how not to be a thief ? or a murderer ?

where do we draw the line ?

Ridiculous nanny state feminazi bullsh'it

kinsy · 03-02-2016 11:14AM

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

So all men should be assumed to be rapists then ?

Not quite sure anyone is claiming that. See the post directly above yours. This stuff goes on amongst so many groups of young and not so young males. It's not (only) about stalking out a victim and raping her at knife point. It's about educating on where the line needs to be drawn.

Can you not see the distinction?

I'm glad I'm not a student any more....

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