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Off licences and draconian closing times

123457

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  • #182
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Except that it obviously is putting a stop to a good portion of it based on the CSO figures you're choosing to ignore


    Look the next Saturday night I'll be having a houseparty, I'll go to the off licence that day. I stock pile crates from tesco, I'll buy wine and vodka, and mixers.
    I'll have enough there to see me through the evening, through the night and some left over if we bring people back after the nightclub.
    We used to have houseparties every weekend. No arrests. No charge sheets. No summonses. No ambulance. No medical attention needed. It's never curbed our fun, unless it was an impromptu house party, and even at that, if you know someone who's working in a bar, they'll prob sort you out with take out cans.

    I mean I can't really see how it would really affect crime rates, unless you're talking about chungfellits in the park drinking their Buckfast, and if anything they'd be buying that before 10pm anyway cause anything later would be passed their bed times


  • #183
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    There's none so blind as those who refuse to see.


  • #184
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Answered above.

    I must be really naive about Boards, I genuinely thought showing hard evidence that the aims of this measure was achieved with a dramatic reduction in crime would change a few minds.

    Hard evidence? Any link with actual research that shows the statistics which you posted are directly related to the alcohol sales laws being changed by one hour? Somehow I think not!

    Posting statistics is not evidence of anything other than the fact there were less offences. Statistics don't tell us why. As someone else said its more likely to be caused by a change in habit related to economic circumstance.


  • #185
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,094 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Okay, say only 20% are to do with this specific law (a conservative estimate given that this was the most dramatic of the laws introduced) That's still 6,000 fewer crimes. Worth it in my book.

    The people of Ireland don't live in a vaccum. You cant pull figures out of your proverbial like that.

    Even if it was the most effective law of that package, we can't just attribute changes to that package. Enforcement, commercial entities, dozens of other laws, social attitudes etc etc.


    Go have a read about the scientific method and how to make actual deductions.


  • #186
    Paramite Pie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Paramite Pie


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    I've presented totally impartial evidence that this law effectively reduced public order offences by almost 50%.

    You clearly mentioned it was part of a bunch of laws, therefore the contributory factor of this law alone cannot be gauged as soley reducing public order offences by 50%.
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Check this information from the CSO out. In 2008, the year this law was introduced, there were more than 61,000 public order offences. In 2014, there were 32,000. The number has almost halved since these laws were introduced (the off license timing was one of a bunch of laws introduced at the same time to tackle public order offences)

    http://www.cso.ie/Quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=cja01c18.asp&TableName=Public+order+and+other+social+code+offences&StatisticalProduct=DB_CJ

    So I'd say your minor inconvenience has been well worth it.

    If one could buy alcohol after 10pm for many years prior to 2008, then why are 2004's public order offenses lower than 2008? You'd imagine they'd be consistent pre-2008.

    Something caused a spike from 47778 offenses to 61280 a mere 4 years later. Was there an increase in the sales hours permitted for alcohol in that time period? I don't recall any such changes...

    There's a lot more than just licensing laws going on here.


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  • #187
    c montgomery
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭c montgomery


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Look, I think people don't need to be babied. In fact I'd go as far as saying closing off licences early promotes binge drinking. If people knew on Saturday night at 10:30 if they decide to stay in they can pop down and get a bottle of wine, they'd be less likely to stock pile and I know myself if I know there's wine here, I'll drink it. You have to get to the off licence before 10, so you'll probably start drinking earlier.

    And I mean if you really want a drink you can just throw on your nice clothes and go out and drink til 2:30 anyway so it's not as if it's putting a stop to people drinking after 10

    Your incapable of having alcohol in the house and not drinking it?
    Sounds like you have a bit of a problem, adults should have self control.
    Off licences closing at 10 are a blessing for you


  • #188
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    So, in 2008 there were 61,000 public order offences. These laws were introduced specifically to tackle public order offences. Then public order offences dropped by almost 50%.

    But there's no connection?


  • #189
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    c montgomery wrote: »
    Your incapable of having alcohol in the house and not drinking it?
    Sounds like you have a bit of a problem, adults should have self control.
    Off licences closing at 10 are a blessing for you


    Holy Sh it, you're right!!
    Don't worry though, I plan ahead, top alcoholic that I am.


  • #190
    c montgomery
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭c montgomery


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    So, in 2008 there were 61,000 public order offences. These laws were introduced specifically to tackle public order offences. Then public order offences dropped by almost 50%.

    But there's no connection?

    People choose not to see the connection as it doesn't fit their narrative.


  • #191
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    c montgomery wrote: »
    Your incapable of having alcohol in the house and not drinking it?
    Sounds like you have a bit of a problem, adults should have self control.
    Off licences closing at 10 are a blessing for you

    Perhaps there should be a law governing high horses. Sitting on one that high is surely a greater risk to ones health and safety than alcohol.


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  • #192
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    c montgomery wrote: »
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    So, in 2008 there were 61,000 public order offences. These laws were introduced specifically to tackle public order offences. Then public order offences dropped by almost 50%.

    But there's no connection?

    People choose not to see the connection as it doesn't fit their narrative.

    That's becoming abundantly clear.


  • #193
    c montgomery
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭c montgomery


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Perhaps there should be a law governing high horses. Sitting on one that high is surely a greater risk to ones health and safety than alcohol.

    Once there's a law that restricts the times allowed to daylight hours, high horses can be dangerous in the dark.


  • #194
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    c montgomery wrote: »
    Once there's a law that restricts the times allowed to daylight hours, high horses can be dangerous in the dark.

    That actually made me laugh out loud :)


  • #195
    Paramite Pie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Paramite Pie


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    So, in 2008 there were 61,000 public order offences. These laws were introduced specifically to tackle public order offences. Then public order offences dropped by almost 50%.

    But there's no connection?

    Because your reasoning doesn't take into account the increase from 2004 - 2008. If there had been 60,000 public order consistently offenses each year then we'd have a clear pattern relating to sale hours.

    The rise of disposable income and the collapse of same matches the statistics in a more consistent manner. And, as you said -- there were other laws brought in too.


  • #196
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    There's none so blind as those who refuse to see.

    That works both ways.


  • #197
    Giblet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,038 ✭✭✭✭Giblet


    I don't care about 10pm, but fecking 12:30pm on a Sunday is absolute stupidity!
    I go shopping in the morning, and sometimes I might think "Hrmm, some wine might be nice" or "Oh the match is on at 1pm, a tin or two would be nice"

    Nope!

    Really, f*cking, stupid.


  • #198
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Except that it obviously is putting a stop to a good portion of it based on the CSO figures you're choosing to ignore


    Look the next Saturday night I'll be having a houseparty, I'll go to the off licence that day. I stock pile crates from tesco, I'll buy wine and vodka, and mixers.
    I'll have enough there to see me through the evening, through the night and some left over if we bring people back after the nightclub.
    We used to have houseparties every weekend. No arrests. No charge sheets. No summonses. No ambulance. No medical attention needed. It's never curbed our fun, unless it was an impromptu house party, and even at that, if you know someone who's working in a bar, they'll prob sort you out with take out cans.

    I mean I can't really see how it would really affect crime rates, unless you're talking about chungfellits in the park drinking their Buckfast, and if anything they'd be buying that before 10pm anyway cause anything later would be passed their bed times

    So because it has never happened to you personally, it can't be true. Talk to ANY A&E nurse about what the most difficult part of the night shift is... There's only one answer they always give.


  • #199
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    Giblet wrote: »
    I don't care about 10pm, but fecking 12:30pm on a Sunday is absolute stupidity!
    I go shopping in the morning, and sometimes I might think "Hrmm, some wine might be nice" or "Oh the match is on at 1pm, a tin or two would be nice"

    Nope!

    Really, f*cking, stupid.
    I'd imagine that's a relic of Catholic Ireland and could definitely be done away with.


  • #200
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Check this information from the CSO out. In 2008, the year this law was introduced, there were more than 61,000 public order offences. In 2014, there were 32,000. The number has almost halved since these laws were introduced (the off license timing was one of a bunch of laws introduced at the same time to tackle public order offences)

    http://www.cso.ie/Quicktables/GetQui...lProduct=DB_CJ

    So I'd say your minor inconvenience has been well worth it.

    In 2009 alone, over 61,000 people emigrated. In 2012 it was 87,000 and in 2013 it was 89,000

    Could that maybe have something to do with other numbers dropping?


  • #201
    Lux23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    It should be changed to 12 on Friday and Saturday and then leave it at ten during the week.


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  • #202
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    syklops wrote: »
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    There's none so blind as those who refuse to see.

    That works both ways.

    Nobody on the other side of the debate has said anything remotely convincing.

    I've conceded that an extension on the weekend and getting rid of the 12.30 start on Sunday would be a good compromise.

    People on here are more interested in "winning" the argument than trying to come up with solutions or compromises that might work.


  • #203
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    syklops wrote: »
    Check this information from the CSO out. In 2008, the year this law was introduced, there were more than 61,000 public order offences. In 2014, there were 32,000. The number has almost halved since these laws were introduced (the off license timing was one of a bunch of laws introduced at the same time to tackle public order offences)

    http://www.cso.ie/Quicktables/GetQui...lProduct=DB_CJ

    So I'd say your minor inconvenience has been well worth it.

    In 2009 alone, over 61,000 people emigrated. In 2012 it was 87,000 and in 2013 it was 89,000

    Could that maybe have something to do with other numbers dropping?
    The crimes dropped by almost 50%, the population didn't.


  • #204
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    Giblet wrote: »
    I don't care about 10pm, but fecking 12:30pm on a Sunday is absolute stupidity!
    I go shopping in the morning, and sometimes I might think "Hrmm, some wine might be nice" or "Oh the match is on at 1pm, a tin or two would be nice"

    Nope!

    Really, f*cking, stupid.

    Oh I've been there and out of pure ignorance. I lived abroad for a few years and got out of the Irish way by being able to pick up a bottle of wine anytime I shopped. Beer too. Since moving back, I lost count of the awkward moments in supermarkets.

    That said, my sister, who should know better living in Ireland, wanted a small can of guinness for her stew earlier this week and suffered the embarrassment of being told no way jose at 10am at the till. Not wanting to revisit later I recommended a bottle of Guinness sauce to her. Does the same thing.:D

    In general, the whole thing is prehistoric and I'm flabbergasted by how anyone can defend it.


  • #205
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    So because it has never happened to you personally, it can't be true. Talk to ANY A&E nurse about what the most difficult part of the night shift is... There's only one answer they always give.


    They'll tell me that the off licences staying open until 10 makes their jobs harder?


  • #206
    thattequilagirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭thattequilagirl


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    So because it has never happened to you personally, it can't be true. Talk to ANY A&E nurse about what the most difficult part of the night shift is... There's only one answer they always give.


    They'll tell me that the off licences staying open until 10 makes their jobs harder?

    You know that's not the point I'm making, but being childish really proves your point. I'm done on this thread, I'd rather be where there's genuine interest in discussion.


  • #207
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,007 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    A&E nurses/Ambulance service
    Garda

    are working anyway.
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Publicans & bar staff

    of course. the reason the 10 pm closing time for offlicences was brought in.
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Off-license workers

    but not their employers.
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    People's livers (I find it hard to believe that a lot of the people who desperately want off licenses open all hours are drinking sensibly)

    well, thankfully what you believe and reality are 2 different things. nobody's liver benefits from a 10pm closing time. it would be much easier for you if you admitted you have no argument.
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Both are true you silly sausage.

    Off license workers benefit by getting to finish work and go home on time.

    Bar workers benefit because the portion of us who go to bars as an alternative keep them in jobs.

    not quite true. the amount of people going to pubs is dropping vastly. they have had enough of being ripped off. anyway its not the job of people to be restricted to keep others in jobs. still, i'm glad your finally admitting this is all about the publicans. so i guess we are getting somewhere.
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Check this information from the CSO out. In 2008, the year this law was introduced, there were more than 61,000 public order offences. In 2014, there were 32,000. The number has almost halved since these laws were introduced (the off license timing was one of a bunch of laws introduced at the same time to tackle public order offences)

    http://www.cso.ie/Quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=cja01c18.asp&TableName=Public+order+and+other+social+code+offences&StatisticalProduct=DB_CJ

    So I'd say your minor inconvenience has been well worth it.

    it hasn't. public order offences were down anyway but spiked again in 2008. consumption of alcohol was also falling which would help bring such offences down some bit. there has been no proven link between the earlier closing time and public order offences. so, the restrictions haven't worked. try again.
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    I've presented totally impartial evidence that this law effectively reduced public order offences by almost 50%.

    you haven't. you have provided evidence that public order offences have reduced, and claimed this is to do with the law. nothing more. there is no link between earlier closing times and a reduction in public order offences (which were going down anyway) apart from a spike in 2008.
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Are you telling me you don't think that's a good thing?

    that public order offences are going down? yes . that there are blatent protectionist laws restricting one set of businesses to protect other businesses? no
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Okay then, what about 29,000 fewer crimes? Is that a good enough reason for you?

    no evidence thats to do with closing the off licence at 10pm.
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Except that it obviously is putting a stop to a good portion of it based on the CSO figures you're choosing to ignore

    it isn't putting a stop to it. drinking in general is down but binge drinking is on the rise. all the figures prove is crime went down. not that closing offlicences at 10pm brought the amount down. it was you who made that claim. the evidence doesn't back you up.
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Answered above.

    I must be really naive about Boards, I genuinely thought showing hard evidence that the aims of this measure was achieved with a dramatic reduction in crime would change a few minds.

    you showed evidence of crime going down. it was you who made the claim it was to do with offlicences closing earlier, nobody else. not the CSO.
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    There's none so blind as those who refuse to see.

    problem is, there is nothing to see.
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    So, in 2008 there were 61,000 public order offences. These laws were introduced specifically to tackle public order offences. Then public order offences dropped by almost 50%.

    But there's no connection?

    no, as apart from a spike in 2008 public order offences were dropping as well as consumption.
    c montgomery wrote: »
    Your incapable of having alcohol in the house and not drinking it?

    not what she said but nice twisting of words to suit your agenda.
    c montgomery wrote: »
    Sounds like you have a bit of a problem, adults should have self control.
    Off licences closing at 10 are a blessing for you

    clearly not. it doesn't stop her from having a drink. it doesn't work. it was blatent protectionism for the publicans based on nothing.
    c montgomery wrote: »
    People choose not to see the connection as it doesn't fit their narrative.

    or, maybe there is no connection.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #208
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    So those in favour of the law state that it is due to public order offences, alcohol related injuries presenting in A&E etc. If that were the case how is 1030/1230 explained? Why can off licences and supermarkets not sell alcohol from the opening of their business hours? There wouldn't be many shops apart from 24 hour businesses that open before 0800, so why not make it 0800? Is there an increase in alcohol related public order offences and A&E presentations between 0800 and 1030? And then on Sundays the increased incidences last until 1230? There is very little rational defence of these laws.


  • #209
    Azalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    Nobody on the other side of the debate has said anything remotely convincing.
    Yes they have, it's just inconvenient for you to acknowledge it. Whereas folks taking the counter position have offered such superb insights as "lol adults plan ahead", "Oh I can't get a sofa at 3am same thing" and "wanting a drink after 10 if not in the pub = drink problem".


  • #210
    Paramite Pie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Paramite Pie


    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    So because it has never happened to you personally, it can't be true. Talk to ANY A&E nurse about what the most difficult part of the night shift is... There's only one answer they always give.

    There should be fines for those who end up in such a state. And no coverage on health insurance and/or medical card for their expenses.
    thattequilagirl wrote: »
    The crimes dropped by almost 50%, the population didn't.

    Fair enough. But I imagine younger people were more likely to commit such offenses and also more likely to emigrate more.

    But the crimes droped to below 2004 levels -- back in 2004 there was no such restriction. I believe it's success is circumstantial rather than the law itself.


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  • #211
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,199 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Forget it everyone.

    Leo's Minimum pricing bill is going ahead (despite the EU rules la la la), and that means that the Off Licences which include supermarkets and centra/spar/garage etc. will only be allowed to sell alcohol between the hours of 3pm to 5pm.

    Don't laugh, it's the future.

    So there.

    All to support our very generous publicans.


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