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Why do you hate Irish?

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Comments

  • #932
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    osarusan wrote: »
    I don't think that is accurate at all.

    Well I do so there!


  • #933
    swimming in a sea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 937 ✭✭✭swimming in a sea


    astrofool wrote: »
    You did officially "fail" the exam, unless you had an exception for Irish, in reality, the only thing that keeps it mandatory is the entry requirement for NUI 3rd level colleges, Trinity does not require Irish, for example. I don't think people would care about the fail result if it didn't affect their college chances (though I'm sure the state would probably stick their oar in if it happened en masse, we can send in some Irish speaking assistants to ensure that everyone in class is listening, and ban them from studying other subjects).

    See:
    http://www.nui.ie/college/entry-requirements.asp

    Okay so if I failed my Leaving Cert, how was the CAO & the University of Limerick able to offer me a place in their Computer Systems degree course, which I completed many years ago, is my degree dodgy? :eek:


  • #934
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,566 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    I think you need to take a deep breath and calm down. When that happens I will consider responding but I don't see it happening soon so I'm just going to ignore you as is also my perogative. The last thing I need is an aggressive poster jumping down my neck!
    That's right, keep attacking the poster when you can't argue their post. ;)


  • #935
    mansize
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,521 ✭✭✭✭mansize


    A pass in English or Irish is the requirement for general matriculation in NUI universities

    Some courses, like primary teaching require specific grades


  • #936
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Before the advent of stations like today fm virtually all english language broadcasting in this country was dependent on tv licence etc funding. The bbc in the uk is entirely publicly funded. In other words your point is wholly irrelevant.
    You're being evasive. I'll take it that the answer to my question is 'no'.
    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Your bias against our native language is hard to understand. Its there, it exists, deal with that fact and then we can move the discussion on. Anything exists is living whether you'd like to will it to die or not. You certainly have an apathy towards the language and an antipathy.
    Of course it exists. The big problem is the way Irish exists/


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  • #937
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    dughorm wrote:
    Imagine going through school, spending 1st class through 3rd year i.e. 8 years learning Irish and never being examined on your ability to utter a word of it. That is unacceptable.

    IN what possible scenario is this going to happen?

    The most likely scenario.

    If Irish was made optional in the morning with no other changes, those in 3rd year who didn't decide to choose Irish for LC would never have an oral Irish exam. This would be ridiculous - spend 8 years studying the language and no exam in how to speak it?
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    dughorm wrote:
    I've yet to hear an argument for English or Maths to be mandatory at leaving cert other than "it's unquestionable" or "it's useful" which is patently isn't for most..

    If people want to introduce an A-level style leaving cert that is one thing, but at the syllabi stand at present I don't think it's adequate to have Irish optional at leaving cert.

    Eh...? The syallabus is poor, so therefore everyone should do it..? Or am I misunderstanding that?

    Sorry I wasn't clear - at A-level someone studies a subject in good depth, the equivalent of 1st year university in many subjects. If this is what the LC Irish language syllabus was like then I would say fair enough it should be optional.

    The Irish language syllabus at leaving cert, particularly at ordinary level is not advanced, it's not difficult enough to justify it being optional in my view in other words.


  • #938
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Have I covered all the arguments? Is there a solid one waiting to raise it's head?

    I can recap some of mine you haven't addressed at all.

    1. You agree with the benefits of a child of learning a second language, but prefer if it were a foreign language. Others, myself included, believe this should be Irish. Why? The clue is in the words "foreign language" - we have two non-foreign languages - Irish and English - we should cover our own languages first. You do accept that Irish isn't a foreign language, right?

    2. Ireland has been a bi-lingual society for a considerable time - there are Irish speakers (what's rare is wonderful :)) and English speakers. There are bi-lingual signs. It is giving both languages in a bi-lingual society appropriate respect to teach both in an equivalent manner. More recently, we have new Irish who speak different languages and that is a good thing but those languages are private languages not official ones.

    3. Irish is our national language in the constitution, whether you like it or not. Therefore it is going to be a core element of public life in this country. You aren't a hostage to any lobby group here. Don't like it - Do something about - campaign to get the constitution changed.

    All these form the thinking behind Irish being mandatory and continuing to be so.
    Sleepy wrote: »
    Shakespeare makes up about a quarter of the Leaving Cert English paper. The author is credited with having created over 1,700 words in our modern vocabulary. And even if you can't see why that makes him worthy of study in a subject that teaches students how to communicate in that language, it's still not an argument for another subject to be mandatory.

    A being true does not make B false. This is one of the logical skills you were supposed to pick up in mathematics.

    I love the studying etymology. Shakespeare played a contribution here. And yet teaching someone "how to communicate in that language" does not require teaching them etymology.

    Shockingly, Leaving Cert English and Irish are not "Business English or Business Irish", they're Literary English and Literary Irish subjects. We study Shakespeare and other literature because of its literary genius, we study poetry because it shows us the power of imagery, we teach creative writing because it expands the imagination. I'm in favour of this being mandatory in both English and Irish.

    Leaving cert French used to have a literary element but it got dumped as part of the dumbing down of the leaving cert - optional Irish would be yet another part of this deterioration.


  • #939
    deepesthole
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 123 ✭✭deepesthole


    Sleepy wrote: »
    That's right, keep attacking the poster when you can't argue their post. ;)
    Yeah, I got that earlier when he tried to pretend learning about the famine and learning to speak Irish were the same thing. He got very upset and just started spouting any old smokescreen diversionary waffle. Randomly picking two words out of a post and then putting them together as a lame strawman. It was embarrassing to watch.


  • #940
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Irish isn't a foreign language, right?
    For most of the population it is.
    Dughorm wrote: »
    3. Irish is our national language in the constitution, whether you like it or not. Therefore it is going to be a core element of public life in this country.
    Ah yes, the old constitutional hammer. Our laws and constitution usually lag far behind changes in Irish culture. Who'd have thought the Catholic Church would lose its special place and that we'd even have same-sex marriage. Ireland has come a long way from the culture that Irish enthusiasts cling to.

    If you had to choose between a united Ireland and compulsory Irish: which would you choose?
    Dughorm wrote: »
    All these form the thinking behind Irish being mandatory and continuing to be so.
    The main reason for Irish being mandatory is to further CnaG's ambition to replace English with Irish as our common language.
    Dughorm wrote: »
    optional Irish would be yet another part of this deterioration.
    No, actually, optional Irish would be a great way for the Irish lobby to show true confidence in the merits of its own cause.

    It's time to sack the cultural commssars.


  • #941
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    For most of the population it is.

    Ah yes, the old constitutional hammer. Our laws and constitution usually lag far behind changes in Irish culture. Who'd have thought the Catholic Church would lose its special place and that we'd even have same-sex marriage. Ireland has come a long way from the culture that Irish enthusiasts cling to.

    If you had to choose between a united Ireland and compulsory Irish: which would you choose?

    The main reason for Irish being mandatory is to further CnaG's ambition to replace English with Irish as our common language.

    No, actually, optional Irish would be a great way for the Irish lobby to show true confidence in the merits of its own cause.

    It's time to sack the cultural commssars.

    You strike me shep dog as someone who may need to be brought through this from first principles. That's ok, there are one or two others like you on this thread.

    So lets start at the beginning. Do you agree Irish should be taught as a subject in national school? I open that question to deepest too, and sleepy if she's of a mind to answer it.


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  • #942
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    The idea that the irish language has no special signicance to the irish people is ridiculous.

    'Special' significance to a minority, and significant to many others who don't want to see it disappear, while foreign to many more Irish people who just don't speak it, and a thorn in the side for successive generations who have had to do it as a compulsory subject in school since the 1920s/30s.


  • #943
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    LordSutch wrote: »
    'Special' significance to a minority, significant to many others who don't want to see it disappear, while foreign to many more Irish people who just don't speak it, and a thorn in the side for successive generations who have had to do it as a compulsory subject in school since the 1920s/30s.

    ok you are possibly a late arrival to the thread and possibly haven't been following many of the arguments for and against.

    I would ask people what nationality are we? Where are our roots? Celtic/Gaelic or Anglo/English.

    These are important questions when attempting to ascertain our identity.

    You would be surprised how many people, young people in particular, who have no clue about our national identity, our history, who we are, where we came from, where we want to go.

    Some people take pride in our history, our identity, the people we produced, including President Kennedy, James Joyce, Seamus Heaney and many others.

    While others think Ireland is basically a sh*t country and we should be ashamed of most of our past. Cue posters saying pretty much this, only ever focusing on the bad. I'm fairly sure they think 1916 was a disaster for this country too, and that Ireland only started to be half decent from about the year 2000 onwards. If they think that, then I am ashamed of such people in turn.

    You always know the people who have no pride in their country, no pride in the culture or history. They never tire of telling you about it.


  • #944
    deepesthole
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 123 ✭✭deepesthole


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    You strike me shep dog as someone who may need to be brought through this from first principles. That's ok, there are one or two others like you on this thread.
    No, no, after you. Tell us why it should be compulsory.
    Without pretending "I want to speak Irish" equals "Everybody wants to speak Irish" please, if you're capable.


  • #945
    deepesthole
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 123 ✭✭deepesthole


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    These are important questions when attempting to ascertain our identity.
    So you're trying to tell me what my identity is now?
    How about you can keep it?


  • #946
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    deepesthole wrote: »
    No, no, after you. Tell us why it should be compulsory.
    Without pretending "I want to speak Irish" equals "Everybody wants to speak Irish" please, if you're capable.

    Oh well I hold out an olive branch to you and this is how you respond, negatively as usual. I should have had more sense. Live and learn!


  • #947
    deepesthole
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 123 ✭✭deepesthole


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Oh well I hold out an olive branch to you and this is how you respond, negatively as usual. I should have had more sense. Live and learn!
    Another oh so clever ducking of the question. Gee, maybe we'll just have to conclude you're not able to answer questions at this stage instead of just refusing to.
    I say "our" identity is English speaking. Ta da, no need for Irish. Job done.


  • #948
    Caoimhgh1n
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,499 ✭✭✭✭Caoimhgh1n


    deepesthole wrote: »
    Another oh so clever ducking of the question. Gee, maybe we'll just have to conclude you're not able to answer questions at this stage instead of just refusing to.
    I say "our" identity is English speaking. Ta da, no need for Irish. Job done.

    May I ask, are you a descendent from a plantation? Are you of Irish ancestry?


  • #949
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Do you agree Irish should be taught as a subject in national school?
    Do you mean in the same compulsory way as at present or offered in a variety of different options as happens with Maori in New Zealand?


  • #950
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Caoimhgh1n wrote: »
    May I ask, are you a descendent from a plantation? Are you of Irish ancestry?

    Hard to tell what his ancestry is. He may have descended from Irish but it looks like he wants to repudiate his Irish heritage and ancestry which of course is his right. As he said himself, he speaks English and that's enough for him.


  • #951
    deepesthole
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 123 ✭✭deepesthole


    Caoimhgh1n wrote: »
    May I ask, are you a descendent from a plantation? Are you of Irish ancestry?
    Oh right, because then you think you'll be able to attack me personally if I give the "wrong" answer and that will make your argument magically sound?
    Yeah, that's gonna work.
    You either have a leg to stand on or you don't. If I'm Ian Paisley Jr or Gerry Adams makes no difference to whether it's right or wrong to force people to speak Irish.


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  • #952
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    Do you mean in the same compulsory way as at present or offered in a variety of different options as happens with Maori in New Zealand?

    Do you think it should be mandatory for all children born here and who grew up here? Or should it be optional. I'm not trying to cause an argument or win a point by the way. I'm just saying that someone has to teach it. Those teachers have to learn Irish. Its kind of a cycle there. The only way to break that cycle is to remove Irish from the national school curriculum completely.

    So if we make it optional in secondary school as for example sleepy advocates, ultimately we might as well remove it entirely from the education system as what little we'd learn would be relatively pointless.

    Ultimately while we teach it in national school, there is a need to teach it in secondary school too, and so the whole "industry" of learning Irish which many people look down their noses at would have to continue.


  • #953
    deepesthole
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 123 ✭✭deepesthole


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Hard to tell what his ancestry is. He may have descended from Irish but it looks like he wants to repudiate his Irish heritage and ancestry which of course is his right. As he said himself, he speaks English and that's enough for him.
    What is this, amateur psychology/genealogy/divination night?
    Hey, why don't you try starting with a fact next time and working from there? Doesn't suit your style?


  • #954
    Caoimhgh1n
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,499 ✭✭✭✭Caoimhgh1n


    deepesthole wrote: »
    Oh right, because then you think you'll be able to attack me personally if I give the "wrong" answer and that will make your argument magically sound?
    Yeah, that's gonna work.
    You either have a leg to stand on or you don't. If I'm Ian Paisley Jr or Gerry Adams makes no difference to whether it's right or wrong to force people to speak Irish.

    I was not attacking you, I have nothing against people of British decent. I was wondering, that is all.


  • #955
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Do you think it should be mandatory for all children born here and who grew up here?
    Let's first agree on what 'it' is. Can you provide the clarification I requested?


  • #956
    astrofool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,471 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    swimming in a sea wrote: »
    Okay so if I failed my Leaving Cert, how was the CAO & the University of Limerick able to offer me a place in their Computer Systems degree course, which I completed many years ago, is my degree dodgy? :eek:

    Because UL doesn't require Irish, they don't care if you passed or failed the LC, just what points you scored in the subjects they care about.


  • #957
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    Let's first agree on what 'it' is. Can you provide the clarification I requested?

    Which clarification is this now? That it be compulsory in national school or Maori model?


  • #958
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Which clarification is this now? That it be compulsory in national school or Maori model?
    Which are you proposing? Continuation of same-old failed once-size-fits-all homgenised Irish curriculum or are you open to a curriculum which offers options more compatible with the variety and needs of modern Irish children?


  • #959
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    Which are you proposing? Continuation of same-old failed once-size-fits-all homgenised Irish curriculum or are you open to a curriculum which offers options more compatible with the variety and needs of modern Irish children?

    Ideally I'm open to it being less written based and more oral based. Few native Irish speakers spend their time writing the language. The language is almost an entirely oral one. I doubt native speakers read many books as gaeilge, there are not many irish newspapers. I'm open to the most number of people possible being able to speak it to a reasonable degree of fluency. I think what has killed interest in Irish is the written form of it, books, essays and the like and all the rules around it. So yes, I am open to it being relevant, modern and more immediate. The only issue with that is some people will say things like "yeh but they have to invent Irish words for laptop, internet, smartphone, etc" Of course they do. You always have people with a bias against Irish fullstop who can't stand the language and think its a waste of time and money.


  • #960
    deepesthole
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 123 ✭✭deepesthole


    Caoimhgh1n wrote: »
    I was not attacking you, I have nothing against people of British decent. I was wondering, that is all.
    I didn't say you attacked me. Read it again.
    You haven't made any case why my nationality or descent makes a blind bit of difference here either.
    If I'm Martian does that make compulsory Irish right or wrong?


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  • #961
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    Dughorm wrote:
    Irish isn't a foreign language, right?

    For most of the population it is.

    Now we're getting somewhere - this has been an unspoken assumption in this whole discussion. You don't think Irish is a language that belongs to the people of this country. Is Flemish foreign to the French speaking part of Belgium? Of course not! Just because a language isn't one's own native language doesn't mean it isn't native to your fellow countrymen. This is about solidarity!
    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    Ah yes, the old constitutional hammer. Our laws and constitution usually lag far behind changes in Irish culture. Who'd have thought the Catholic Church would lose its special place

    And yet you choose as your example a case where the constitution was ahead of a change in culture? The Fifth Amendment in 1973 removed the "special position" of the church well before Irish society did?
    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    If you had to choose between a united Ireland and compulsory Irish: which would you choose?

    I honestly fail to see the logic in this question? What is it meant to prove?


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