Swedish police accused of covering up rampant sexual abuse at music festival

cajonlardo · 12-01-2016 02:44PM

Shenshen wrote: »

The odd thing about human behaviour in such situations is that the more people are around, the less likely it is that any one of them will help.
It's a sort of mental passing the blame, everybody waits for "someone" to do "something".

100% agree. But would most people or even some people aid their family/ partner?

AlekSmart · 12-01-2016 02:49PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Which public broadcaster? Germany has a good few.
How much of a delay is a report that came out a day after the assaults were reported to police?
They reported that men of North African origin were involved straight away - they couldn't really have know that they were asylum seekers before they made the arrests, could they?

Again, for those with short attention spans, I'm in no way defending the actions of the people who assaulted an robbed others in Koeln on New Years Eve. In no way at all. They need to be found and brought to justice.
Neither do I defend the lack of police in the town at the time, nor the consequent delayed response - they only cleared the area shortly around midnight, that should have happened much sooner.

I do however dispute that there is any kind of cover-up going on, that the police were keeping information back or that the press didn't report. Both allegations are factually incorrect. But that's the nice thing about a conspiracy theory, facts will do little to sway the believer.

The Huffington Post article confirms and addresses some of Shenshen's points...

German officials have said that asylum seekers were involved in the attacks.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/cologne-train-station-attacks_568e88b7e4b0cad15e639ee2

Officials have identified 31 suspects and arrested two men, ages 16 and 23, as of Friday. Both men have “North African roots,” a police spokeswoman said.

Two arrests....

Interior Ministry spokesman Tobias Plate announced in a news conference Friday that 18 of the 31 suspects identified as having a role in the attacks had asylum seeker status.

As for the German Media bit....It seems as if its the Germanic version of RTE that's being accused of tardy reportage...

Contrary to some claims, the media has not ignored this incident.

Many have falsely claimed that the media has ignored this matter. "Where's the outcry when you really need it?" Jens Spahn, a member of the Bundestag for the CDU, Germany's center-right party, posted on Twitter earlier this week.

However, on New Year's Day, there were reports in Cologne's local media (Express, Cologne Rundshau and Kölner Stadt Anzeiger) in addition to some national media outlets (such as Focus Online and Welt). Germany’s public broadcaster, ZDF, publicly apologized for only reporting on the attacks four days after they took place. Over the past week, the event has been heavily covered by German and international media.

It could be just a once off occurence,"totally out-of-character,my client has had a hard upbringing" type of thing...and then again....it could well be the portent of something different altogether..?

walshyn93 · 12-01-2016 02:50PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

Indeed "They" do,although,it appears "we" need far more of "them"....

http://www.vox.com/2016/1/11/10750858/cologne-sexual-assault-migrants

This "Public Outcry" is SO unnecessary....it's only a few lads havin the craic...is'nt it..?

God bless the Germans,they're level headed as ever...

Whilst Ralf's superior ventured...

But,yea,it could all be just down to the level-headed,boring ol Germans simply not knowing how to chill.....

So they say...... ?

None of this is evidence of lack of a cover-up. The cover-up was obvious. It's a common trend and anyone who believes that this latest 5 day "delay" was not part of the trend of cover-ups of sex crimes by Muslims is deluded.

Shenshen · 12-01-2016 02:56PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

It could be just a once off occurence,"totally out-of-character,my client has had a hard upbringing" type of thing...and then again....it could well be the portent of something different altogether..?

If I was to hazard a guess - and that's mere speculation, mind - I think it was organised by a group of small-time criminals who were after phones and money mostly.
They knew there would be a massive crowd and that it should be fairly easy pickings for them, and they decided to recruit a bit of help for the big day.
German police have reported that a number of the arrests they've made are people that are already known as pick pockets and such organisation really isn't anything new in Germany. You can expect at least one gang operating at any given crowd-event, be it a christmas market or a concert.
How and why it got so out of hand - there were reports of drugs and alcohol being involved, and there might be other factors we're not aware off.

Not that this excuses anything at all. It's still a horrendous occurence, and needs to be investigated. And the attackers need to be brought to justice.
I'm just not too sure I want to jump on the "thousands of Muslim asylum seekers gathered to molest women because of culture" bandwagon.

JPCN1 · 12-01-2016 02:58PM

cajonlardo wrote: »

" If 10,000 snakes were coming down that aisle now, and I had a door that I could shut, and in that 10,000, 1,000 meant right, 1,000 rattlesnakes didn't want to bite me, I knew they were good... Should I let all these rattlesnakes come down, hoping that that thousand get together and form a shield? Or should I just close the door and stay safe? "

Mohammed Ali

Regarding the Attacks...

One thing I do not understand is how no one appears to have physically aided many of the victims?

When I was a child I was going to the shops with my little sister when a man tried to grab her so I've some kind of yardstick to judge how I'd react. At a festival or new years eve celebration there would be many strong tough people - how come none of the attackers were picking up their teeth?

I suppose if some locals had waded in, firstly they would have done so in small numbers against an organised group and it may not have turned out well for them.
Secondly, the press then would have went front page with pictures of locals attacking poor immigrants.
We live in strange and dangerous times.

emo72 · 12-01-2016 02:58PM

Police failed to mention the attacks around Cologne’s main train station in their initial morning report on New Year’s Day, describing overnight festivities as “largely peaceful.”

That's contradicting some posters.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/18-asylum-seekers-linked-to-crimes-in-cologne-at-new-year/2016/01/08/a695d3e4-b5fa-11e5-8abc-d09392edc612_story.html

KomradeBishop · 12-01-2016 03:00PM

If this is all magically a cover up by 'the left', given that Sweden's current government are left-wing, then - given that the government in Germany right now is right-wing - I guess Cologne was a 'right-wing' cover-up, eh? Pretty mad conspiracy theories.

It's pretty disgusting/distasteful, the way people are exploiting this issue, to further their own political agenda - like they could give a toss about the victims. A lot like the way the terrorist attacks in Paris were hijacked politically (and Hebdo before that), in a similar manner.

Shenshen · 12-01-2016 03:02PM

emo72 wrote: »

Police failed to mention the attacks around Cologne’s main train station in their initial morning report on New Year’s Day, describing overnight festivities as “largely peaceful.”

That's contradicting some posters.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/18-asylum-seekers-linked-to-crimes-in-cologne-at-new-year/2016/01/08/a695d3e4-b5fa-11e5-8abc-d09392edc612_story.html

This link is from the 8th of January.
I've previously posted a link from a local German newspaper from the 2nd of January reporting the incidents.

At that time, police had 40 reports of incidents on file - given that Cologne is a city of over 1 million people, I too would have called that "largely peaceful".

A Primal Nut · 12-01-2016 03:02PM

cajonlardo wrote: »

No way it is that simple. Anyone , man or woman, believe they wouldn't help their own in that situation? I am not saying it did not happen that way - simply that I cannot understand it.

If you are referring to the Cologne thing, the locals were vastly outnumbered. Reports were that there was a 1000 men in this group. So the local Germans went to the police instead, but the police stood back and watched.

dissed doc · 12-01-2016 03:03PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

If this is all magically a cover up by 'the left', given that Sweden's current government are left-wing, then - given that the government in Germany right now is right-wing - I guess Cologne was a 'right-wing' cover-up, eh? Pretty mad conspiracy theories.

It's pretty disgusting/distasteful, the way people are exploiting this issue, to further their own political agenda - like they could give a toss about the victims. A lot like the way the terrorist attacks in Paris were hijacked politically (and Hebdo before that), in a similar manner.

The government in Germany is very left wing with regard to their policy on open immigration, always has been. The German media has also been outed as exceptionally currupted by political and intelligence agency influence, notably the big newspapers like SDZ, FAZ, etc..

A Primal Nut · 12-01-2016 03:04PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

If this is all magically a cover up by 'the left', given that Sweden's current government are left-wing, then - given that the government in Germany right now is right-wing - I guess Cologne was a 'right-wing' cover-up, eh? Pretty mad conspiracy theories.

It's pretty disgusting/distasteful, the way people are exploiting this issue, to further their own political agenda - like they could give a toss about the victims. A lot like the way the terrorist attacks in Paris were hijacked politically (and Hebdo before that), in a similar manner.

A bit like the pro-immigration people hijacked the Aylan Kurdi photos and the war in Syria for their own ends?

KomradeBishop · 12-01-2016 03:07PM

dissed doc wrote: »

The government in Germany is left wing with regard to their up until now policy on open immigration. If they were right wing, Merkel and her party would not have encouraged it.

No. The German government are widely regarded as being center-right.

Open-borders/pro-immigration is just as much a right-wing policy - e.g. flooding a market with cheap foreign workers - as it is a left-wing policy.

JPCN1 · 12-01-2016 03:13PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

If this is all magically a cover up by 'the left', given that Sweden's current government are left-wing, then - given that the government in Germany right now is right-wing - I guess Cologne was a 'right-wing' cover-up, eh? Pretty mad conspiracy theories.

It's pretty disgusting/distasteful, the way people are exploiting this issue, to further their own political agenda - like they could give a toss about the victims. A lot like the way the terrorist attacks in Paris were hijacked politically (and Hebdo before that), in a similar manner.

Politicians of most hues are narcissistic ar5eholes imo. The job attracts that sort of person. Anything for a bit of favourable press so while immigration was a sexy issue that most people had a fairly benign view on it was on balance - for them- a good thing to support. The naysayers were called at best mis-informed and at worst xenophobic racists.
Now that some of the concerns that many of those people had have indeed come to pass, those politicians sought to bury the story. There can be no doubt of this and the backlash will take time but will be extreme.

dissed doc · 12-01-2016 03:14PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

No. The German government are widely regarded as being center-right.

Open-borders/pro-immigration is just as much a right-wing policy - e.g. flooding a market with cheap foreign workers - as it is a left-wing policy.

By open immigration I mean the stance of open borders, which Merkel did, ignoring the Dublin Agreement and basically swinging open the gates. That is a hard-left wet-dream. Open immigration, no rules, no borders, no law.

Pro immigration just means pro immigration. Switzerland is pro-immigration but right wing in policy; lots of rules lot of laws about it. Germany is pro-immigration but took a sharp left-turn last summer!

I would rather the Swiss system than the German! And significantly, Switzerland has a lot more foreigners per population than Germany. We can do asylum and we can do immigration but we need democratic oversight and direct ongoing votes per council district to make it work.

KomradeBishop · 12-01-2016 03:16PM

dissed doc wrote: »

By open immigration I mean the stance of open borders, which Merkel did, ignoring the Dublin Agreement and basically swinging open the gates. That is a hard-left wet-dream. Open immigration, no rules, no borders, no law.

Pro immigration just means pro immigration. Switzerland is pro-immigration but right wing in policy; lots of rules lot of laws about it. Germany is pro-immigration but took a sharp left-turn last summer!

As I said, it's not an exclusively left-wing policy - it's neither right-wing nor left.

It is, in fact, much bigger as a right-wing policy, for flooding markets with cheap foreign workers.

testaccount123 · 12-01-2016 03:17PM

Can we stop the left wing right wing nonsense? Its completely irrelevant.

KomradeBishop wrote: »

It's pretty disgusting/distasteful, the way people are exploiting this issue, to further their own political agenda

People who are anti-mass rape are "exploiting" incidents of mass-rape to argue against mass-rape. The horror.

KomradeBishop · 12-01-2016 03:20PM

testaccount123 wrote: »

Can we stop the left wing right wing nonsense? Its completely irrelevant.

People who are anti-mass rape are "exploiting" incidents of mass-rape to argue against mass-rape. The horror.

No actually it's completely relevant - there are tons of people with an 'anti-left', 'anti-feminist' etc. agenda at the start of the thread and throughout, trying to portray this as the fault of 'the left' and who are drum-beating support for right-wing parties as a result.

Except this blaming of 'the left' is based on conspiracy-theories, and in fact this supposed 'cover-up' would have to have happened under a right-wing government in Germany.

The whole issue surrounding immigration isn't even coherently left or right wing either, as there are very prominent right-wing arguments for lax immigration policies, as well as left-wing arguments.

So I'm calling bullshít on all that nonsense, and am openly deconstructing it.

AlekSmart · 12-01-2016 03:24PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

None of this is evidence of lack of a cover-up. The cover-up was obvious. It's a common trend and anyone who believes that this latest 5 day "delay" was not part of the trend of cover-ups of sex crimes by Muslims is deluded.

Ah here now.....Many people....or maybe,quite a few people...well at least one,are suspicious of your "common trend".....:(

Posted By: Nodin. The police were apparently publicly looking for witnesses from the 1st of january. Odd way to cover up.

Perhaps it never happened at all,and was some form of Mass Halucination ?

sbsquarepants · 12-01-2016 03:42PM

cajonlardo wrote: »

100% agree. But would most people or even some people aid their family/ partner?

Probably most would come to the aid of someone they knew well, but strangers are a different kettle of fish. I myself have turned a blind eye to things over the years and I wouldn't be small or meek or anything like that, I just think - "not really my business, don't get involved", or "someone else will do it".

cajonlardo wrote: »

I think you are right - but when I said "Your own" I meant a relative, spouse or whatever - realise now that was poor choice of words given the context.
Like I said, I know how I react because I was faced it with it whilst I was a child ( and I was a meek kid) I appreciate not everyone can fight or will fight - but not one? No off duty military/Police? No average young male? Not one?
That is odd.

Am I taking you up wrong are you implying that the whole thing is being exaggerated or something like that?
It's a very emotive subject - I'd say it's a safe bet that the actual truth is either being exaggerated / played down depending on who you talk to. Always is.

emo72 · 12-01-2016 03:48PM

Taharrush. It's an Arab name to describe it.

Imagine a "passtime" as horrible as this having its own name.

"Lads we're heading into town later for a bit of taharrush, are yis up for it?

Maybe some of us are overreacting, maybe we aren't accepting of other cultures.

walshyn93 · 12-01-2016 04:02PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

No actually it's completely relevant - there are tons of people with an 'anti-left', 'anti-feminist' etc. agenda at the start of the thread and throughout, trying to portray this as the fault of 'the left' and who are drum-beating support for right-wing parties as a result.

Except this blaming of 'the left' is based on conspiracy-theories, and in fact this supposed 'cover-up' would have to have happened under a right-wing government in Germany.

The whole issue surrounding immigration isn't even coherently left or right wing either, as there are very prominent right-wing arguments for lax immigration policies, as well as left-wing arguments.

So I'm calling bullshít on all that nonsense, and am openly deconstructing it.

I think in the modern age within the context of Europe the right left debate has little to do with economics. It's more to do with social policy. Socially, the CDU is left wing. It's not a right wing policy to be pro-Islamic immigration.

And there's no question that the left has a total inability to factor realities like this into their backwards ideology.

Alexis Sanchez · 12-01-2016 04:12PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

It's pretty disgusting/distasteful, the way people are exploiting this issue, to further their own political agenda

Yes, people who object to social problems caused by mass unskilled/uneducated immigration are disgusting/distasteful for exploiting a series of social problems that are caused by mass unskilled/uneducated immigration.

Support or immigration control parties in growing all over Europe and these kind of social problems are what's fueling it.

like they could give a toss about the victims.

Just like the left wing Labour councilors gave a toss about underage girls in England when they covered up the Pakistani child grooming gangs for 15 years?

The right wingers calling immigration control seem to care about the innocence of Europe's women/girls a lot more than the left do.

cajonlardo · 12-01-2016 04:13PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Am I taking you up wrong are you implying that the whole thing is being exaggerated or something like that?

No, Not suggesting it was exaggerated at all.

I believe there are very credible accounts because they are reported similarly by social media, by the journalist ( eventually) and recorded interviews with police officers.

conorhal · 12-01-2016 04:17PM

emo72 wrote: »

Taharrush. It's an Arab name to describe it.

Imagine a "passtime" as horrible as this having its own name.

"Lads we're heading into town later for a bit of taharrush, are yis up for it?

Maybe some of us are overreacting, maybe we aren't accepting of other cultures.

This is what the 'it's a small minority' briggade don't understand or simply refuse to recognise, this behaviour is endemic, epidemic and culturally ingrained in the Arab street.
Women have no place in the public sphere, and to intrude upon it unveiled and unaccompanied is to show yourself to be a whore and somebody not worthy of respect and thus men are entitled to treat you as a whore. We saw this throughout Tahrir Square in Cairo during the Arab Spring.
Such is the level of daily harassment that a new cab company has been set up in Egypt called the Pink Cab Company exclusively to cater for women with female drivers:

Egypt's women-only taxi service promises protection from male drivers | World news | The Guardian

Here a journalist dressed as a woman to highlight the constant harrasment that pretty much any woman walking down the street can expect, even 'modestly dressed' the mere presence of a woman on her own seems to give men licence to grope and abuse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az1DsRo6QX4

That attitude doesn't change just because you cross a border.

KomradeBishop · 12-01-2016 04:22PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

I think in the modern age within the context of Europe the right left debate has little to do with economics. It's more to do with social policy. Socially, the CDU is left wing. It's not a right wing policy to be pro-Islamic immigration.

And there's no question that the left has a total inability to factor realities like this into their backwards ideology.

Well, it has a lot to do with economics: Practically all European parties near power, are right-wing economically, these days - even those people consider 'left' - it's virtually a pre-requisite for power in Europe.

The more extreme end of right-wing economics, is in favour of free movement of both capital and labour, across borders - so it's very much a right-wing policy as well.

walshyn93 · 12-01-2016 04:24PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Well, it has a lot to do with economics: Practically all European parties near power, are right-wing economically, these days - even those people consider 'left' - it's virtually a pre-requisite for power in Europe.

The more extreme end of right-wing economics, is in favour of free movement of both capital and labour, across borders - so it's very much a right-wing policy as well.

Yeah that's exactly the point I was making. That the economic bit has been removed from the debate entirely because there's widespread agreement among all parties. Not just because it's a prerequisite for power but because EU economic law demands it. Its a fool who argues a man's point back to him.

Right wing social policy is generally about protecting the dominant cultural traditions and if there is to be immigration they ought to integrate. Leftist immigration policy is about accepting all cultural traditions living side by side and it's based on a utopian fantasy where there's no friction. The right want immigration for economic reasons and the left want it for social reasons.

KomradeBishop · 12-01-2016 04:27PM

Good article posted on A&A, showing that all of the 'cover up' conspiracy theory ideas, have originated as propaganda put out by a right-wing anti-immigration group:

robindch wrote: »

It seems that the anti-immigrant group, Pegida, were one of the reasons that allegations of a cover-up became widespread:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/claim-of-media-cover-up-on-cologne-sex-attacks-is-nonsense-1.2492574

KomradeBishop · 12-01-2016 04:29PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

Yeah that's exactly the point I was making. That the economic bit has been removed from the debate entirely because there's widespread agreement among all parties. Not just because it's a prerequisite for power but because EU economic law demands it. Its a fool who argues a man's point back to him.

Right wing social policy is generally about protecting the dominant cultural traditions and if there is to be immigration they ought to integrate. Leftist immigration policy is about accepting all cultural traditions living side by side and it's based on a utopian fantasy where there's no friction. The right want immigration for economic reasons and the left want it for social reasons.

That shows an inherent right-wing bias in almost all ruling parties in Europe though. That doesn't mean, that we should restrict the ideological distinction between left and right policies, to just social policies - that would be putting blinkers on - it means there's an inherent right-wing bias, starting with economic policy, and that this is the perfect platform for showing a right-wing support for current immigration policies (cheap foreign labour).

walshyn93 · 12-01-2016 04:35PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Good article posted on A&A, showing that all of the 'cover up' conspiracy theory ideas, have originated as propaganda put out by a right-wing anti-immigration group:

He hasn't provided any evidence to refute the claims of a coverup. Instead he leans on the usual crutch of liberal usage of the term "right wing".

His whole argument centres around one question:

"When did the media cover-up of the Cologne attacks begin, and how long did it last?"
It lasted until the New York Times forced their hand and gave it the attention it deserved and then was picked up by the BBC and German MSM. Reporting in local newspapers outside of the sphere of influence of the German media elite is not evidence to refute the claims of a cover-up. The fact it took 5 days to reach the mainstream media is evidence enough.

walshyn93 · 12-01-2016 04:36PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

That shows an inherent right-wing bias in almost all ruling parties in Europe though. That doesn't mean, that we should restrict the ideological distinction between left and right policies, to just social policies - that would be putting blinkers on - it means there's an inherent right-wing bias, starting with economic policy, and that this is the perfect platform for showing a right-wing support for current immigration policies (cheap foreign labour).

Except the right wing economic arguments for accepting refugees are very weak indeed. The drive to allow migrants into Europe has been driven by the left on social rather than economic grounds

Swedish police accused of covering up rampant sexual abuse at music festival

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