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The problem of childhood trauma

13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    Azalea wrote: »
    Usually this is the outlook I would have, but when it comes to child abuse: all bets are off. When people are neglectful/abusive to their children, I agree absolutely that this is likely due to something going on in their lives/pasts/heads and if they did not have these other problems they probably would not be abusive... but so what? They are responsible for their behaviour still, and the behaviour in question is some of the most heinous behaviour there is. Children have died because of abuse. I agree we should understand the reasons for people doing awful things to others, but I do not agree that this deflects responsibility from them - particularly when their targets are only children, who have no ability to take them on. I would be in favour of help being offered to such parents though (if moreso for their children's sakes).

    Personally I don't blame anyone who survives abuse for not being forgiving of their abuser - this does not mean they'll be weighed down by bitterness and anger either (which would not be ideal). You can remove someone from your life and move on as best you can. I think the stuff about forgiveness being more for the forgiver is a nice idea, but in my opinion it can just allow the abuser to get away with what they did.

    I would not view it as unreasonable of anyone who has suffered at the hands of an abuser to cut them out until the abuser comes to them with remorse. And even then, it would take an especially strong person to forgive.

    Of course you are right. It takes a massively strong person to fforgive. But not forgiving ( in your own mind, you don't have to even tell them) stops people dwelling on negative **** forever. Someone said bitterness is like taking poison in the hope that it will kill your enemy. It only affects you. If you can come to a point where you can say this person was a flawed person and that was nothing to do with you, you can move on. Again easier to say than do.

    Of course you shouldn't have anything to do with them if these issues are still there


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Internet Ham


    Let me directly contradict your opinion there Melissak. I tried that with my abusers. I had forgiven them and had reengaged communicating only to discover I was initially correct that they were worth hating and were not worth forgiveness.

    That is only me but in my experience, people do not change.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    Let me directly contradict your opinion there Melissak. I tried that with my abusers. I had forgiven them and had reengaged communicating only to discover I was initially correct that they were worth hating and were not worth forgiveness.

    That is only me but in my experience, people do not change.
    No, sorry I might not be making myself clear. You don't have to have anything to do with them but try to move on in your head so these people and experiences no longer have power over you.


  • Posts: 21,740 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    melissak wrote: »
    No, sorry I might not be making myself clear. You don't have to have anything to do with them but try to move on in your head so these people and experiences no longer have power over you.

    I do understand the point you are trying to make. Don't let the abusers win by allowing their crimes to follow you around for the rest of your lives. "Moving on in your head" sounds so simple really. The reality is far from it. The pain of abuse can follow you around like a shadow. Even after years of therapy and doing your best to come to terms with your past. Maybe people who have suffered don't want to "move on in their heads". It is their experience and their pain to deal with in the best way they know how.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    I do understand the point you are trying to make. Don't let the abusers win by allowing their crimes to follow you around for the rest of your lives. "Moving on in your head" sounds so simple really. The reality is far from it. The pain of abuse can follow you around like a shadow. Even after years of therapy and doing your best to come to terms with your past. Maybe people who have suffered don't want to "move on in their heads". It is their experience and their pain to deal with in the best way they know how.
    You are probably right. I am not saying I have the answers. I know that it is easy to say and hard to do believe me but remaining stuck in your mind as that abused child is no picnic either.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,707 ✭✭✭whatismyname


    melissak wrote: »
    You are probably right. I am not saying I have the answers. I know that it is easy to say and hard to do believe me but remaining stuck in your mind as that abused child is no picnic either.

    Choosing not to forgive someone who you don't believe you should be forgiving does not mean that you're remaining stuck in your mind as that abused child.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,946 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Surely forgiveness follows on from the perpetrator being repentant for what they did?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    Choosing not to forgive someone who you don't believe you should be forgiving does not mean that you're remaining stuck in your mind as that abused child.

    Maybe not forgive so, but put it in the past. I might be putting it badly


  • Posts: 21,740 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    melissak wrote: »
    Maybe not forgive so, but put it in the past. I might be putting it badly

    But how? I don't mean to be awkward but this is hugely complex stuff that can take years to work through. Even then there is no guarantee of being able to put it in the past. We are talking about the systematic abuse of a child over a period of time. Their resilience to cope and trust in the world around them will be shattered. Now of course some children do grow up and manage to come to terms with their past and live a stable and emotionally sound life. Some. Not all. If all those who hurt for whatever reason could put it in the past, draw a line under it and move on, hell we'd be living in a kind of psychological utopia.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    But how? I don't mean to be awkward but this is hugely complex stuff that can take years to work through. Even then there is no guarantee of being able to put it in the past. We are talking about the systematic abuse of a child over a period of time. Their resilience to cope and trust in the world around them will be shattered. Now of course some children do grow up and manage to come to terms with their past and live a stable and emotionally sound life. Some. Not all. If all those who hurt for whatever reason could put it in the past, draw a line under it and move on, hell we'd be living in a kind of psychological utopia.

    I don't know how. I really don't, I wish I did but it is something people should be working towards I think.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,707 ✭✭✭whatismyname


    melissak wrote: »
    I don't know how. I really don't, I wish I did but it is something people should be working towards I think.

    Yes, you're right. You really don't know.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    melissak wrote: »
    I don't know how. I really don't, I wish I did but it is something people should be working towards I think.

    Your posts are coming across as extremely patronising.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    I don't think Melissa means anything bad - some survivors of terrible treatment have found forgiving has helped them to cope. But she said she agrees this is not necessarily for everyone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Azalea wrote: »
    I don't think Melissa means anything bad - some survivors of terrible treatment have found forgiving has helped them to cope. But she said she agrees this is not necessarily for everyone.

    I know she doesn't but people don't need to be told what they need to do to move on. Forgiveness isn't a magic wand. Not forgiving doesn't mean you're bitter or stuck in the past.


  • Posts: 21,740 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    melissak wrote: »
    I don't know how. I really don't, I wish I did but it is something people should be working towards I think.

    I know your heart is in the right place here Melissa. I have seen the struggle that adults who were traumatised as children go through. I've seen them try. I've seen them do their utmost to keep their own families together as they attempt to come to terms with their past. I've seen young adults flounder and feel like failures because they have grown up in a dysfunctional home. They didn't choose any of this. They don't wake in the morning and say "hey I'm really enjoying feeling like a piece of crap being incapable of moving beyond this place".

    Think about the impact your words may have on some of the posters here. People who are doing their best with the cards they have been dealt.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    Yes, you're right. You really don't know.[/quo)
    How would you know what I know? I am a stranger to you. I thought you started a thread on it because you wanted different opinions. Clearly I was wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Your posts are coming across as extremely patronising.

    Sorry. I was trying to give my opinion on is as I hate to think of people reliving past trauma over aNd over again like picking a scab. I was trying to be helpful.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,424 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Guys, people reading this thread probably have enough problems of their own without having to deal with the arguments here. Stay civil please and keep the purpose of the thread in mind.

    Mod


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,707 ✭✭✭whatismyname


    I know your heart is in the right place here Melissa. I have seen the struggle that adults who were traumatised as children go through. I've seen them try. I've seen them do their utmost to keep their own families together as they attempt to come to terms with their past. I've seen young adults flounder and feel like failures because they have grown up in a dysfunctional home. They didn't choose any of this. They don't wake in the morning and say "hey I'm really enjoying feeling like a piece of crap being incapable of moving beyond this place".

    Think about the impact your words may have on some of the posters here. People who are doing their best with the cards they have been dealt.

    Couldn't have said it better Persepoly.

    I know for me I've had others in my life who've experienced very similar take a 'just move on, it's in the past' approach. Good for them, but I wish so much it was that simple.

    I've been very much affected, and that's basically saying 'just don't be affected'. Just stop being affected by 15 years of abuse and neglect.

    I didn't choose for it to happen to me, I didn't choose to be affected, but I do choose to do everything I can to move on and heal from it. But that can't just happen overnight and a hell of a lot of work needs to happen to allow that.

    It makes it very hard watching others who experienced very similar to me seem to be so much less affected and be able to just take a 'it's in the past, move on' approach, but the irony is that I can see ways that they have been very much affected.

    So I guess I maybe console myself a little that at least I'm acknowledging how it's affecting me, facing it head on, and doing what I can to deal with it in order to heal from it, even though that is so hard and takes so much work and time.

    Everyone's different and handles sh1t differently, we're all only human at the end of the day. None of us are really comparable, and for every one of us our pain and trauma is unique to us, and in my opinion, it's really not for anyone else to say how to handle it. It's hard when others trivialise it as people in my life have done - including mental health professionals who have sometimes been the worst for it - as accepting it for how big it was is an important part in the healing for me.


  • Posts: 21,740 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    melissak wrote: »
    And yours are coming across as bitchy. I was trying to give my opinion on this as I hate to think of people reliving past trauma over and over again like picking a scab. I was trying to be helpful. Sorry to all.

    This is a hugely emotive topic Melissa where people will rightly be stirred up. It's hard to know the right thing to say. Harder still for those who are living with the reality of it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    It makes it very hard watching others who experienced very similar to me seem to be so much less affected and be able to just take a 'it's in the past, move on' approach, but the irony is that I can see ways that they have been very much affected.
    I wonder is it suppression rather than them being less affected. Maybe it isnt but I think your approach is very admirable - tackling it head-on instead of it lurking away in the shadows. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be, but not burying it and confronting it instead (as you say you are doing) makes more sense to me as a way of helping yourself heal. Just my opinion anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,707 ✭✭✭whatismyname


    Oh and I mentioned earlier about useful resources.

    Here's a pdf book, Life after Trauma, A Workbook for Healing, that I came across online, and have printed off and am going to use as one of my resources.

    Mods I hope it's ok to share and doesn't breach any copyright etc but please feel free to remove if not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,707 ✭✭✭whatismyname


    Azalea wrote: »
    I wonder is it suppression rather than them being less affected. Maybe it isnt but I think your approach is very admirable - tackling it head-on instead of it lurking away in the shadows. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be, but not burying it and confronting it instead (as you say you are doing) makes more sense to me as a way of helping yourself heal. Just my opinion anyway.

    Thank you.

    I have always believed that it was more about suppression than being less affected, but I think in the past year the effects of it for me have been more extreme than they had in the past, so the fact that I saw others who'd experienced very similar be 'less affected' became very hard to deal with.

    It made me feel like it was my fault. Not that the abuse and neglect was my fault as such, but that how I'm affected is my fault, as I hadn't been able to deal with it better, and if others who'd experienced so much similar could, then why couldn't I?

    I know so much on a rational level to know why it's far from being that simple, but on an emotional level I still feel this and it's very painful.

    I recently met with a service who I'm now on the waiting list to receive support from. They're a time limited support service but I identified this as one of the things that I want to work on.

    I wish I could just turn off how much it affected me, but the reality is that when you bring a child into the world, and then neglect and abuse them most of their childhood, their emotional development is likely to be affected at the very least, and that's perfectly natural.

    For me, I couldn't not face it head on, but I have often had a feeling of 'if I had been able to bury it too, maybe things would be easier now?' but it would still be affecting me even if I wasn't acknowledging it to myself or choosing to work on it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 240 ✭✭Ignatius in bloom


    bubblypop wrote: »
    I think you are being very hard on your mother. Maybe you need counselling.
    You are basically blaming your mother for being a ' bad' mother but totally excusing your father, even though he was a ' bad' parent too.
    He is excused because he's a drinker.
    How hard did your mother have it?
    I'm not saying blame your dad, but maybe you could try to understand your mothers problems more.

    Sometimes its a case of having thousands of small fractures that are painful but you can't quite understand how you got them but you do know, you just don't know why and the person who did that too you calls you a hypochondriac constantly until its too much to bear.

    Sometimes all forgiveness takes is to be told i know you are in pain, I'm sorry.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    Sometimes its a case of having thousands of small fractures that are painful but you can't quite understand how you got them but you do know, you just don't know why and the person who did that too you calls you a hypochondriac constantly until its too much to bear.

    Sometimes all forgiveness takes is to be told i know you are in pain, I'm sorry.

    Well put. True.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,707 ✭✭✭whatismyname


    Don't really want to go in to the background of why I'm seeing them etc.

    But today something remarkable happened. Today a psychologist who I've only seen twice, who I really feel like I've connected with, basically apologised to be on behalf of society for what happened to me as a child.

    I've so long being getting such a different type of response from mental health services, a response that was so damaging, yet this professional today, and how they were towards me, was so, so powerful.

    She was also honest with me the first time I met her that no matter how qualified she is professionally, she had quite a privileged childhood, and can't ever truly understand what it's like to have the type of childhood I did.

    I've only met her twice, and will only see her for a relatively short period of time. But the empathy she has shown me. The not trivialising how bad it was. The reassurance. Acknowledging that society isn't very good at recognising and understanding the impact of childhood trauma, and basically apologising on behalf of society for what happened to me was more powerful than I can even begin to describe, and I'm still processing things but feel that a lot of what I experienced from her today in particular has really helped in my healing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,236 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Her mother neglected and physically and emotionally abused her. Whatever that entails we do not need to know. It's bad no matter what it entails.

    Yes, her mother almost certainly had issues. Yes, her father's drinking may have played a part.

    But nothing will ever excuse a mother neglecting and emotionally and physically abusing their child.

    And it is not for us to judge the poster for blaming her mother or for 'giving her mother a hard time', or not trying to understand her mother's problems more.

    The poster's experience and pain is theirs and it is theirs to handle however they do, and it will never be any other person's to pass judgement on.

    You know. I think that often our parents acted the way they did because of their own childhood trauma. My Mum was an alcoholic and manic depressive. I think she may have had some problems growing up. I never related well to My Dad. I found out just before he died that his uncle attempted to abuse him.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,707 ✭✭✭whatismyname


    You know. I think that often our parents acted the way they did because of their own childhood trauma. My Mum was an alcoholic and manic depressive. I think she may have had some problems growing up. I never related well to My Dad. I found out just before he died that his uncle attempted to abuse him.

    Yep, I don't doubt that their own childhoods played a huge part in making the people they were, and for me breaking that cycle is important, and making sure that I do what I can to heal from it, and to not pass the same type of sh1t down to the next generation, if I'm lucky enough to have kids.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    I know someone in their late 60s now who is still traumatised by the way he was treated as a kid by his father and schoolmasters. Not sexually abused but verbally and physically and emotionally. Very badly by the sounds of it.

    He is from the country, and anyone he has spoken to of his own vintage from his childhood days recount similar. I don't know, was the male parent/teacher frustrated or full of power or what.

    It is awful to listen to, imagine nearly 60 years later it is still there and traumatising. I don't know what to do except listen, because all the perpetrators are dead now. I cannot imagine.

    Still, the instinct in me is to say "move on", but I don't. I really don't know what to say really. It is horrible the things that were described.

    I have counselled and befriended many like that. They seem to have absorbed the suffering into their very bloodstream and unwilling or unable to let it go. I forcibly have changed the subject often and found a different rapport.. works better than you can imagine. I was horrifically abused and even in recent years. Some I remember some is too horrific. For me as a Christian the issue of forgiveness became central and I struggled with that for years. A decade or two ago I was being massively victimised by someone who was in a position to do so very effectively. One day she drove past my house as I was gathering turf and my whole insides turned to acid. Then I realised that she was far from happy.. I learned then to forgive and she lost her power. My take on forgiveness is this. If someone pushes me off a bridge, I will forgive them while I am recovering in hospital and I will mean that. But there is no way I will ever walk on a bridge with them again. Like the old man in the post, I could easily go on and one re abuse but that is harming only me. Not forgiving is the same. I query the value of talking too much re the past; keeps it alive somehow. And unless we each can come to terms with it then we are the ones who will suffer. We give it power over us. See, recognise, nod and close the door on it. Some wounds will never heal but there will be greater freedom


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,433 ✭✭✭The Raptor


    I am in my thirties and the abuse I received as kid, right up to today still effects me.

    As a kid, I was handicapped and wasn't allowed to grow up. I wasn't allowed anything good to happen to progress in life, even as a child.

    My earliest memory was starting school at five years old wearing nappies. What mother keeps their child in nappies until five years old? I don't have a disability or anything like that to have kept me in nappies.

    The school offered swimming lessons. Once a week, there would be a bus that would collect the students and bring us into a swimming pool. Except, I wasn't allowed by my mother. The principal was mad to get me swimming and why wouldn't she, its a great skill to have and I remember my dad outside the principals office and he was willing to pay. Except I was to honest and loyal to my mother and told them I didn't want to.

    Growing up my mother always had a sexist attitude and looking back she had a sexist attitude when it came to those swimming lessons. My two older brothers were allowed swimming lessons, along came my younger brother and he was allowed to.

    I don't know what her reason was for not allowing me as she always said everyone should know how to swim. It was rather hypocritical of her when the chance was thrown in our face and she put a stop to it. I never understood that, I was 8 years old. It didn't dawn on me until years later, everything I did, my mother tried to put me down. I did take swimming lessons in my twenties as two fingers to my mother. I don't need a penis to swim.

    Along with wearing nappies at five years old, I couldn't wash myself or wash my hair at 10 years old. She would have to come in and sponge me in the shower. Off course, i could wash myself, but she just wouldn't allow it. I remember having pubic hair and tits and my mother washing me and the bathroom door open for anyone to walk in, which often did happen. I was 10 years old. One of my brothers was a year older and she never did that to him.

    I was 10 or 11 years old when the abuse escalated. My dad was having an affair. My two older brothers started secondary school.

    They would bring home friends of both sexes. Nothing was ever said to them when my mother was clearly unhappy with them bringing home friends.

    My mother would offen ask me to sweep the floor or clean the lunch boxes. I would have the floor swept and it would never be good enough. How much dirt was there to get from sweeping the floor two or three times. She would often raise her voice (but not loud enough for someone else to hear) and go around in a mood.

    There was a pattern to her behaviour. When I sat down to do homework (I wasn't allowed to learn). Or the worst was when my brother's friends came over. She would be at me over and over again until I snap. It was over a floor or lunch boxes. And thats what she wanted. I would often retire to my room and get away from her but this would drive her nuts. She would follow me and attack me. Threaten me with hitting me with something.

    This went on for years. Even my brothers noticed it and told my mother it was her at me, over and over.

    Some times she would lock me outside at night like an animal, when none of my brothers friends were around. But she would always take me in when the pubs closed because that's when dad would be home.

    It started when i was around 11 years old. That threatening vicious abuse continued right up until I was about 23 years old except locking me outside. That bit stopped. I remember, I had to fight my mother off at around 23 with the nearest thing I could find, it was a can of flea spray. Its not something im happy about, threathening your own mother with spray. She started at me, i retired to my room, and she followed me waving the sweeping brush to hit me. I was 23 years old, just a few weeks away from getting a car. I was useful then. The abuse stopped, she knew I wouldn't take her shopping.

    I should have moved out instead of getting a car. But she would never give me the opportunity to save for a deposit. It was always pay up housekeeping. And give her money. I couldn't even afford the car, I took it out on loan.

    I was 13 and in sixth class and one day we took a visit to a special school. At the time, I didn't know what it was for. But years later, I googled the name and it was a school for kids and adolescents with mental health issues. It was a residential school.

    She was building a case up against me to put me away. She even had proof of my brothers friends. I don't know why she didn't follow through with it, I would have been treated better.

    Thats mostly my primary school years for you. I don't remember much from secondary school except I was allowed to grow up and wash myself. Discos were a no no. The problem was mine, I was far too honest and never lied enough. I should have, those wasted years when I should have been having fun.

    School work and exams, she would often fling my books all over the place. Or in first year, when my youngest brother started school, according to her he got too much homework and would get me to do it for him. Never mind about my own. It was the same thing over again with my youngest brother, he wasn't allowed to learn, except it was all done because she cared and to help him. Except she wasn't helping him. That went on for years. He has dyslexia now, that didn't help him.

    Finishing up with school at 18, I wasn't allowed to go to college either. My mother just wanted me straight into work. No such thing as college for women. She spent that whole summer, at me. Living in a small village, exams were over in june. There wasn't any summer jobs.

    She wasn't like that to my brother when he finished school. But I was meant to go straight into work. It was all for money because my twenties was nothing but financial abuse.

    I did get into college and survived off the grant and made it last because I had too. My brother would get his grant and spend it on drink and new phones and lose the new phone. While looking for bus fair of my mother.

    There was financial abuse and favouritism in my twenties. Straight out of college, I got work. It was the times we were in. We all had work. I was only at home because I couldn't live from week to week. My brothers lived for the weekend and drinking, saving for holidays. I was only at home because I couldn't live from week to week. While my mother gave my brothers the opportunity to save and expected no housekeeping. I didn't get the same opportunity to save. Housekeeping had to be paid, all the while i paid for bills and bought my own food. My mother did everything for my brothers, bought their food and made their dinners. Its funny how she tried to handicap me as a child but then turned around and handicapped her sons. While i paid my keep, I never received a dinner.

    There was a time, my two older brothers were away and she was banking it all for the day they came home. They got new beds, presses, and lockers. I had the same bed for 22 years and it was a landlords responsibility to replace furniture, not mine. She didn't buy the beds with her dole money.

    She still tried to get money out of me last year. She received a letter about a loan my dad took out in the 80s. I was 3 years old. She always had a problem with asking men for money and she wouldn't go to my dad. Instead, she shoved the letter in my face. I told her, i debts in my twenties and didn't expect anyone to pay them off for me. This was a loan that was taken out when I was 3 years old and I'm not taking it on. I don't care who owns it, or how much guilt she puts me on. I didn't sign anything at three years old. But she never went and asked my two older brothers who were also around at the time. If it was my debt at 3, it was also their debt at 4 and 5.

    What topped it all off for me was last summer. She created a picture display in the house. Pictures of her boys. Tons of pictures. Two of them have emigrated, you might say something. One of them at home. But also a picture of my brother and his partner. I gave her a picture of me to include in her display. To be included in her family. 6 weeks later and it wasn't included. She valued my brothers partner more, in Australia. I was told i was childish when i brought up the issue, she wouldn't discuss it. I walked out. Its been three and a half months.

    While she gets old my brother and his partner will obviously be there for her in Australia. They aren't coming home, his partner has a kid from a previous relationship. I don't think my other brother will be either. There's nothing at home for him.

    I'd be happy if i never saw that dirty cow again. Its been three and a half months since I walked out. If she thinks its OK to treat me like that, its not. She wouldn't discuss it either. If i go home, or continue having a relationship with her, its just abuse, it always was and I'm only accepting it and everything else. Well, I'm not.

    I'm in tears writing this. My life is crap, in other ways to. I have thought about suicide but I don't know how to. Something pain free. But I want a life, the life my mother never had, so she tried to destroy mine. But not any more. And if i ever have kids, the cycle has to stop. I wouldn't have her in my kids life either. I couldn't bare the thought of pure hatred from their grandmother, just because they would be my kids.


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