Why do you hate Irish?

Eugene Norman · 09-01-2016 03:24PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I never had to do it (yay!) as a result of living abroad for a few years when I was 9 and thus getting an exemption from the Department when we came home, but also a very stubborn mother whose attitude was that we wouldn't be wasting our time on a dead language that would be of no use to us.

As a result I usually did homework during those classes, or went to the library and read. Religion was the same story - mam's attitude was that we'd pick our own faith (if any) when old enough to make an informed choice on the matter, rather than having the Catholic Church push its dogma on our young minds. This would have been in the 80s and early 90s.

Nowadays I have no need or interest in either, but think that far too much time is devoted to both in our schools at a time when our classrooms are increasingly multicultural and multi-faith, and our country depends so much on FDI, the service industry and multinationals for employment in a global economy. The time would be far better spent getting the fundamentals right (Maths and even English) as well as more European languages, mandatory computer classes etc to give kids the best chance they can to get ahead.

I'm not saying that Irish or Religion should be stamped out, but if you want your kids to know these things.. teach them yourself, or send them to Sunday school or the Gaeltact. Don't force a classroom of 30 kids to sit through it just to satisfy your cultural/religious idealism at the expense of subjects that would be of far more use to them.

What you are talking about is training not education.

Eugene Norman · 09-01-2016 03:26PM

catbear wrote: »

I agree. I do like Irish but I like Spanish and italian too but I hate compulsory Irish. At least with maths we actually need it to live.

Actually most people don't need even pass leaving cert to live. Most people have enough maths after primary.

DanielODonnell · 09-01-2016 03:29PM

Because they are afraid of the English being offended by it because Sinn Fein use it

catbear · 09-01-2016 03:38PM

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Because they are afraid of the English being offended by it because Sinn Fein use it

Well that's BS, what about ulster scots gaelic?

pjmn · 09-01-2016 03:42PM

Hated it because I had the the greatest b$%&ard of an Irish teacher for my 5 years in secondary school (1975 - 80) - he left a lasting impression!!!

_Kaiser_ · 09-01-2016 03:54PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

What you are talking about is training not education.

What I'm talking about is putting classroom time to better use than subjects that are less relevant than ever in Ireland, and especially so to people who may have immigrated from places with completely different cultural and religious beliefs, not to mention potentially poor English skills nevermind Irish.

By all means have a class once or twice a week that cover ALL main religion equally so kids are informed about the different faiths and what they hold, but wasting weeks and months on communion and confirmation prep work (which as far as the kids are concerned are really just about getting dressed up for the day and getting lots of cash) is an incredibly bad use of class time.

Similarly Irish should be downgraded to optional status with no special place over any other non-English language. Irish also should lose the special status in terms of extra points in the LC for doing it through that language.

As I said, if you believe strongly enough that these are things you want your kids to have, the option is there to teach it to them yourself, or send them to a Gaeltact school or get more involved with your local Church.

But yes, schools are there to prepare kids for the world they'll be living in and give them the best chance to succeed in it. Parents shouldn't expect schools to take the lead on subjects such as morality or faith or expect hours and weeks to be devoted to a language that will be of no benefit to the vast majority of them (and which the parents themselves may only have a tenuous grasp on).

Is that not part of what being a parent is supposed to be about? To guide your child according to your own cultural values and ethics, support them to be a productive member of society and encourage them to ask questions and find their own way, as well as setting boundaries and limits where necessary, rather than just putting clothes on their back and food on the table and expecting the school to do the rest (probably wouldn't do some parents any harm to get more involved anyway).

Dughorm · 09-01-2016 04:07PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

What I'm talking about is putting classroom time to better use than subjects that are less relevant than ever in Ireland, and especially so to people who may have immigrated from places with completely different cultural and religious beliefs, not to mention potentially poor English skills nevermind Irish.

By all means have a class once or twice a week that cover ALL main religion equally so kids are informed about the different faiths and what they hold, but wasting weeks and months on communion and confirmation prep work (which as far as the kids are concerned are really just about getting dressed up for the day and getting lots of cash) is an incredibly bad use of class time.

Similarly Irish should be downgraded to optional status with no special place over any other non-English language. Irish also should lose the special status in terms of extra points in the LC for doing it through that language.

As I said, if you believe strongly enough that these are things you want your kids to have, the option is there to teach it to them yourself, or send them to a Gaeltact school or get more involved with your local Church.

But yes, schools are there to prepare kids for the world they'll be living in and give them the best chance to succeed in it. Parents shouldn't expect schools to take the lead on subjects such as morality or faith or expect hours and weeks to be devoted to a language that will be of no benefit to the vast majority of them (and which the parents themselves may only have a tenuous grasp on).

Is that not part of what being a parent is supposed to be about? To guide your child according to your own cultural values and ethics, support them to be a productive member of society and encourage them to ask questions and find their own way, as well as setting boundaries and limits where necessary, rather than just putting clothes on their back and food on the table and expecting the school to do the rest (probably wouldn't do some parents any harm to get more involved anyway).

Why are you bracketing Irish language and religion together if you mind me asking?

_Kaiser_ · 09-01-2016 04:13PM

Dughorm wrote: »

Why are you bracketing Irish language and religion together if you mind me asking?

Because both take up far too much time in our education system at the expense of others that would be far more beneficial, and both have even less relevance in Ireland than ever.

09-01-2016 04:46PM

catbear wrote: »

None of that is helpful to me. I learn by immersion. Like recently I travelled in south american and picked up loads of spanish in a very short time whereas the learning aids like the ones you posted didn't sink in.

Agree. I first learned spanish the same way, in Mexico, then Portuguese in Africa. But not much chance of learning Irish by immersion in Ireland,
Grew up in the geltacht, now live just a few miles outside a gaeltacht are,, hear the language, maybe 3 or 4 times a year. Spoke it maybe a dozen times in the last 20 years.
Don't hate the language, it's just that it's basically dead. Do get annoyed by the folks who try to force it on us though.

Eugene Norman · 09-01-2016 05:27PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

What I'm talking about is putting classroom time to better use than subjects that are less relevant than ever in Ireland, and especially so to people who may have immigrated from places with completely different cultural and religious beliefs, not to mention potentially poor English skills nevermind Irish.

By all means have a class once or twice a week that cover ALL main religion equally so kids are informed about the different faiths and what they hold, but wasting weeks and months on communion and confirmation prep work (which as far as the kids are concerned are really just about getting dressed up for the day and getting lots of cash) is an incredibly bad use of class time.

Similarly Irish should be downgraded to optional status with no special place over any other non-English language. Irish also should lose the special status in terms of extra points in the LC for doing it through that language.

As I said, if you believe strongly enough that these are things you want your kids to have, the option is there to teach it to them yourself, or send them to a Gaeltact school or get more involved with your local Church.

But yes, schools are there to prepare kids for the world they'll be living in and give them the best chance to succeed in it. Parents shouldn't expect schools to take the lead on subjects such as morality or faith or expect hours and weeks to be devoted to a language that will be of no benefit to the vast majority of them (and which the parents themselves may only have a tenuous grasp on).

Is that not part of what being a parent is supposed to be about? To guide your child according to your own cultural values and ethics, support them to be a productive member of society and encourage them to ask questions and find their own way, as well as setting boundaries and limits where necessary, rather than just putting clothes on their back and food on the table and expecting the school to do the rest (probably wouldn't do some parents any harm to get more involved anyway).

The religious question (which is unrelated to this) I agree with. Wouldn't even teach comparative religion. Sunday schools. Nor am I anything but agnostic on whether Irish is taught compulsorily or not. However I believe that may need a constitutional change.

I was responding to you and other posters who seem to think that education is about producing good workers for capitalism.

Education is partly about educating people for capitalism but in fact most jobs wouldn't need more than primary school or at most junior cert education for that. Teach grammar, and arithmetic and you can be a shop worker, an office admin or a hedge fund manager.

A broad education - the humanist education - is about transmittal of culture and indeed useless facts. I probably don't need to know history to do my job, nor to have read Shakespeare or Dickens. Or to know the formation of an ox bow lake. Nor Irish. Nor Latin ( which I would bring back). The only real debate is whether the cultural transmission should include Irish or not.

I'm opposed to functional ideas on education.

Iwasfrozen · 09-01-2016 05:54PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I'm opposed to functional ideas on education.

Why?

Eugene Norman · 09-01-2016 06:18PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why?

Because that's not education. It's training.

Shep_Dog · 09-01-2016 06:32PM

Dughorm wrote: »

Perhaps some people don't want to learn English Literature? Perhaps some people don't want to be educated? Would you assume an absolute right to force education on people who didn't want it?

English is a very important language in Ireland. It's essential that children be proficient in it.

Dughorm wrote: »

Is your argument now "the cultural formation of the children is primarily the parent's right except when it comes to creationism"?

I'd rate Irish language policy and associated Gaelic Revival baggage as conceptually equal the creationism.

Dughorm wrote: »

They do, the census tracks peoples choices in this regard.

And ignores them.

Dughorm wrote: »

Why would parents withdraw children from religion classes?

If the parents are atheists and only have a problem with the religion lessons at the school in queston.

Dughorm wrote: »

What you mean to say surely is that it's wrong to make them learn Irish - people are certainly entitled not to speak it if they don't want to.

You cannot teach a language without requiring the pupils to speak it. Oddly, Irish enthusiasts complain about being forced to speak English when dealing with public bodies but have no problem forcing small children, not their own, to speak Irish.

Dughorm wrote: »

Ireland has been a country divided between two cultures - the Gaelic one and the Settled one. It was a country divided between two languages - Irish and English - the new republic recognised this in its choice of languages in the constitution.

That was the past, the teaching of Irish is an attempt to revive that past intstead of living in the present. Indeed, given the hugely positive influence our Polish immigres have had on Irish society and culture, maybe it's time we showed that part of our culture more respect in our education system.

Dughorm wrote: »

The heritage of both cultures is respected by the State, be it the works of the Gaelic bardic poets or the works of Jonathan Swift. Neither is less Irish. Both should be learned and cherished equally, the education system attempts to achieve this.

You are confusing history and language. I'm specifically referring to the teaching of the Irish language. Our history and literature are clearly essential subjects but they can be appreciated in English. The few phrases of Irish needed by an average Irish person to impress his/her foreign friends could be learned in an afternoon. 14 years is just ridiculous.

Eugene Norman · 09-01-2016 06:39PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

English is a very important language in Ireland. It's essential tha children be proficient in it.

No need for Shakespeare though. If you believe that we teach "useful subjects" then both the Irish language and English novels should have equal unimportance.

I'd rate Irish language policy and associated Gaelic Revival baggage as conceptually equal the creationism.

Must be some term for this logical fallacy. Compare something you are arguing against to something obviously dumb?

I'll look it up.

Shep_Dog · 09-01-2016 07:26PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

No need for Shakespeare though. If you believe that we teach "useful subjects" then both the Irish language and English novels should have equal unimportance.

English literature is an important part of the teaching of English. The important point is the relative importance and necessity of Irish and English, quibbling about the content of the respective syllabi is irrelevant.

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Must be some term for this logical fallacy. Compare something you are arguing against to something obviously dumb?

Both the Gaelic Revival and Creationism are based on myth and faith.

Shurimgreat · 09-01-2016 08:01PM

Wibbs wrote: »

The simple fact is that the Irish language is a very small part of the culture of modern Ireland. Irish sports and music have a far greater impact on our culture and nobody is making them compulsory.
OK, imagine someone coming from abroad who has learned Irish fluently but knows nada of English. Beyond some tiny communities, or if Ros Na Run needed a new foreign character on the cast list, how far would they get in Ireland?

This is a perfect example of the kind of dumbed down simplistic thinking we're dealing with here folks. The whole of American and British culture and history rendered down to reality TV "stars". If you think that either example is even scratching the surface of those nations, you really need to get out and read more.

Oh and please try not to include the rest of us in such ignorance of the wider world, ta very much.

FFS I know more about all these cultures than you ever will. You completely missed the point I was making, it flew directly over your head but I'm not surprised.

Ask any modern Irish teenager to name a single American painter, writer of note (I don't mean Stephen King etc), non pop musician, or anything outside the dumbed down pop culture that permeates the media and see how far you get. Ask them for famous Americans and see what the responses are. You can even come back here after you do your research.
The same for UK by the way. These cultures are dumbed down in the popular media, I'm simply pointing out that fact.

If you want Ireland to become more Anglo-cized and less "Celtic" for want of a better description, fine go with it. I fundamentally disagree with that. We don't need any more homogeneity in society where everyone thinks and acts alike. Diversity can be a good thing, although clearly you disagree and you feel everyone should be forced to speak English.

Shurimgreat · 09-01-2016 08:07PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Most Irish people are not immigrants. They have lived here all their lives and their ancestors, perhaps never spoke Irish or have not done so for hundreds of years. Irish is not part of their identity and culture. It's wrong to make them speak Irish.

Who are you to decide the culture and traditions others should follow?

Its not up to me to decide anything. Its up to our elected representatives who we vote into power. If they decide collectively that Irish should no longer be compulsory then fine it will be dropped and you or your descendants won't have to suffer this inconvenience any longer. If they decide we should become more anglocised, then great, happy days for those who want that.

I personally think that we shouldn't just vote away parts of our culture because some people don't like it. So far, there has been no real movement within the Dail to do away with compulsory Irish so its going to stay for a good time yet, whether people like that or not, and clearly you don't.

Iwasfrozen · 09-01-2016 08:12PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Because that's not education. It's training.

I disagree.

Shurimgreat · 09-01-2016 08:16PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Because both take up far too much time in our education system at the expense of others that would be far more beneficial, and both have even less relevance in Ireland than ever.

Do you think French, German or Spanish languages would be more relevant then? Because I certainly don't. Most people spend only 5-6 years in secondary school learning them and are even less fluent in them when they leave than Irish. I'm not sure how many go on to do them as part of their college course, but I'd imagine its somewhere around 5%.

In other words these languages are completely irrelevant to 95% of the population and yet take up a considerable amount of time in the curriculum. 95% of people or thereabouts will leave school with pigeon French, German and Spanish and it was a complete waste of time for them to learn them.

People learn foreign languages mostly through living in these countries and intense learning of them post secondary schools. What they learn in secondary school is mostly a waste of time.

Shep_Dog · 09-01-2016 08:28PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

If you want Ireland to become more Anglo-cized and less "Celtic" for want of a better description

Tell us about this 'Celtic' idea of yours and why forcing people to speak Irish is an essential part of it. Then tell us why it is so important to you to isolate your cultural identity, through the use of Irish, from others whose culture you despise.

mickstupp · 09-01-2016 08:29PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Do you think French, German or Spanish languages would be more relevant then? Because I certainly don't. Most people spend only 5-6 years in secondary school learning them and are even less fluent in them when they leave than Irish.

I don't know a single solitary person where that is actually the case.

Everyone I know and went to school with had the same experience as me. Year of French or German, knew way more of those than of Irish.

Shurimgreat · 09-01-2016 08:31PM

mickstupp wrote: »

I don't know a single solitary person where that is actually the case.

Everyone I know and went to school with had the same experience as me. Year of French or German, knew way more of those than of Irish.

And how are you in modern languages now? Can you hold a conversation?

DanielODonnell · 09-01-2016 08:32PM

catbear wrote: »

Well that's BS, what about ulster scots gaelic?

You tell me? I've never heard of Ulster Scots Gaelic, I have heard of the Ulster dialect of Irish and Ulster Scots which is a lowland Scots Germanic tongue.

There is Scottish Gaelic too but it doesn't fit your point as the English never liked it either and still mock it.

mickstupp · 09-01-2016 08:34PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

And how are you in modern languages now? Can you hold a conversation?

In French? Yeah. I can also read journal articles and text books in that language.
I can also read Greek and Latin after 5 years of the first and only 1 of the second. Not a hope of understanding a single sentence of Irish after 13 years.

Shurimgreat · 09-01-2016 08:34PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Tell us about this 'Celtic' idea of yours and why forcing people to speak Irish is an essential part of it. Then tell us why it is so important to you to isolate your cultural identity, through the use of Irish, from others whose culture you despise.

I don't despise other cultures. I just think what young Irish people are exposed to in the main of other cultures is not great, on TV, the internet, and so on.

Most countries teach what I would describe as their "historical culture" to students in school, that is the history, myths and mythologies, great figures of the past, and so on. I'd imagine American students are taught about slavery, native Indians, the war of independence, civil rights, essentially where the American people came from. Its only right we do something similar although a lot of people seem to despise native Irish culture at the same time.

I take it by the way you'd be happy for the Irish language to disappear forever and it wouldn't cause you that much concern?

Actually cultural identity might be a better term than historical culture. The cultural identity of a nation is taught in most education systems.

Shurimgreat · 09-01-2016 08:37PM

mickstupp wrote: »

In French? Yeah. I can also read journal articles and text books in that language.
I can also read Greek and Latin after 5 years of the first and only 1 of the second. Not a hope of understanding a single sentence of Irish after 13 years.

Nonsense but nice try. You'd be surprised how much of it comes back to you from a quick chat with someone else as Gaeilge or if you are forced to speak it to get along like you would be forced to speak French in a French speaking country. As others have said there is no substitution for immersion.

Eugene Norman · 09-01-2016 08:40PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

English literature is an important part of the teaching of English. The important point is the relative importance and necessity of Irish and English, quibbling about the content of the respective syllabi is irrelevant.

Both the Gaelic Revival and Creationism are based on myth and faith.

Sorry no.

1) if you want practically useful language you just need business language English. Thats what is taught in,say Holland. Therefore the argument about usefulness is pointless.
2) you've repeated your logical fallacy. You need to explain why Irish language teaching is a myth or based on "faith". Work into your answer the revival of Hebrew.

Maybe we could teach logic as well as Irish?

mickstupp · 09-01-2016 08:42PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Nonsense but nice try. You'd be surprised how much of it comes back to you from a quick chat with someone else as Gaeilge or if you are forced to speak it to get along like you would be forced to speak French in a French speaking country. As others have said there is no substitution for immersion.

No it's really not, but nice try.
I was so bad at Irish I had to do Foundation. Only got a D in that.

Shurimgreat · 09-01-2016 08:53PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Sorry no.

1) if you want practically useful language you just need business language English. Thats what is taught in,say Holland. Therefore the argument about usefulness is pointless.
2) you've repeated your logical fallacy. You need to explain why Irish language teaching is a myth or based on "faith". Work into your answer the revival of Hebrew.

Maybe we could teach logic as well as Irish?

Shakespeare, Yeats, Shelley, etc are not very useful to anyone in the modern workplace, no doubt. So you'd ask why are they taught? For a similar reason Irish is taught, cultural reasons. And a couple other subjects.

Some people believe students should be well rounded when they leave school. Others believe they should be trained robots designed to fit into a workplace.

Eugene Norman · 09-01-2016 09:01PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Do you think French, German or Spanish languages would be more relevant then? Because I certainly don't. Most people spend only 5-6 years in secondary school learning them and are even less fluent in them when they leave than Irish. I'm not sure how many go on to do them as part of their college course, but I'd imagine its somewhere around 5%.

In other words these languages are completely irrelevant to 95% of the population and yet take up a considerable amount of time in the curriculum. 95% of people or thereabouts will leave school with pigeon French, German and Spanish and it was a complete waste of time for them to learn them.

People learn foreign languages mostly through living in these countries and intense learning of them post secondary schools. What they learn in secondary school is mostly a waste of time.

Sure. And someone might emigrate to Holland and have to learn Dutch or Poland and learn polish. It all depends.

If we stick to usefulness we would only teach business American English ( I don't see much desire for a spelling change though). Furthermore what applies to Irish should apply the all minority languages. Dutch, Norwegian, Russian, Hungarian etc. Most languages.

I don't see much desire in those countries to replace their language with English. They just also teach English.

It's not like the pro-Irish language posters are demanding the end of English. The English language supremicists are quite enraged , however at the mere existence of a non dominant non "useful" language.

Why do you hate Irish?

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