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Why do you hate Irish?

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Comments

  • #662
    cornholiooo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 150 ✭✭cornholiooo


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    It is absolutely right to "force" some subjects on people. Its right to force Maths, English, History and one or two other subjects on people. Its possibly right to force Irish on people too. Its part of our identity and culture and if you want to live here, have an Irish passport and so on, you should at least make an effort to integrate with the culture and traditions.

    Imagine someone coming from abroad, not speaking a word of English and you don't force them to learn the language or integrate.

    It would actually not be a good thing to see Irish die out. Its what sets us apart. Its possible it might see a major revival in the future and possibly at some stage become the dominant language again with English the second language. In any case it doesn't really matter what language we converse in.

    Everyones entitled to their opinion and im not trying to knock yours...
    ... but i think youre delusional


  • #663
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    cornholiooo wrote: »
    Everyones entitled to their opinion and im not trying to knock yours...
    ... but i think youre delusional

    That's fine. I think I'm right so we will disagree.


  • #664
    El Burro Juicioso
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46 ✭El Burro Juicioso


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    ...
    Its possible it might see a major revival in the future and possibly at some stage become the dominant language again with English the second language. In any case it doesn't really matter what language we converse in.

    I'm not going to start an ifs and buts argument in the other, but this part is craziness. Major revival? How? Dominant language? Whichever language doesn't matter? I'm not so sure about that at all.


  • #665
    Baggy Trousers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭Baggy Trousers


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    It would actually not be a good thing to see Irish die out. Its what sets us apart.

    I don't agree but why do we need something to "set us apart"?


  • #666
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    osarusan wrote: »
    'keeping it optional' - do you mean 'keeping it mandatory'?

    You did misunderstand - what I am saying is that I completely disagree with the 'make it optional to help it survive' argument.

    I don't think making it optional will help it survive at all - I believe the number of students choosing the option would be much lower than people imagine. Yes, keeping it mandatory will result in more people speaking it to a very low level of proficiency - if I were an advocate of the Irish language, that would be my position.

    But I think the issue of optional versus mandatory isn't really the issue. And even though it is really badly taught, and knowingly so, that really isn't the issue either.

    Most people have absolutely no use for Irish in their lives. They get by without knowing it just as they do without knowing Swahili. The real issue, in my opinion, is a lack of a need for Irish and consequently a desire for learning the language.

    Unless that can be rectified (and i don't really believe it can) then the language will never flourish, and will only survive through artificial support.

    Sorry - yes - keeping it mandatory :o

    When you say "keeping it mandatory will result in more people speaking it to a very low level of proficiency" - the problem is that people don;t speak it with a low level of proficiency, they don't speak it at all. If I was an advocate of the Irish language, I'd consider people not speaking it at all to be textbook failure; but that would depend on what the goals of the Irish speaking advocates are. CnaG's goal of reestablishing Irish as the common lanaguge of Ireland is certainly not going to come about with this defeatest mentality.

    Regarding a "need" for Irish - that will never happen in practical terms. You can say people must have Irish for certain jobs, but that's creating an artificial need where there is none.

    Poeple need to get kids to "want" to speak Irish. That's step one.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • #667
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    It is absolutely right to "force" some subjects on people. Its right to force Maths, English, History and one or two other subjects on people. Its possibly right to force Irish on people too. Its part of our identity and culture and if you want to live here, have an Irish passport and so on, you should at least make an effort to integrate with the culture and traditions.

    "Ours" or "yours"? It's up to the individual to decide what customs are important to them and to find their own identity. You can't force an identity onto someone.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #668
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,861 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    When you say "keeping it mandatory will result in more people speaking it to a very low level of proficiency" - the problem is that people don;t speak it with a low level of proficiency, they don't speak it at all.
    Don't speak it at all? Or can't speak it at all?

    Most who come out of school can speak it to a low level of proficiency - shockingly low for the amount of time invested in it, but they can talk about family, interests, things they like, things they have done, and so on. So they can speak it to that low level.

    That they don't speak it after they leave school is the key point. Whereas people are generally keen to go on and improve their German or Spanish or whatever language they've studied, for many, the Oral exam is pretty much the last time they ever have a conversation in Irish. The desire to improve or maintain the language isn't there, and that's purely down to a lack of motivation.
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    If I was an advocate of the Irish language, I'd consider people not speaking it at all to be textbook failure; but that would depend on what the goals of the Irish speaking advocates are.
    I doubt that any Irish advocate anywhere is satisfied with the proficiency levels of school leavers.
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    CnaG's goal of reestablishing Irish as the common lanaguge of Ireland is certainly not going to come about with this defeatest mentality.
    I'd call it a completely deluded attitude, rather than a defeatist one.
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Regarding a "need" for Irish - that will never happen in practical terms. You can say people must have Irish for certain jobs, but that's creating an artificial need where there is none.

    Poeple need to get kids to "want" to speak Irish. That's step one.
    I'd argue that where there is no widespread 'need', there will never be a widespread 'want'.


  • #669
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Baggy Trousers wrote: »
    I don't agree but why do we need something to "set us apart"?

    Hmm let me see...because I basically think American and UK culture is basically sh*t?

    Kim Kardashian is the major US cultural figure of our time FFS, certainly the person most young Irish people would be familiar with. And a lot of similar people.

    Geordie Shore etc, that pretty much sums up much of UK culture.

    So yes, I'd like something different to that thank you.


  • #670
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    osarusan wrote: »
    Don't speak it at all? Or can't speak it at all?

    Most who come out of school can speak it to a low level of proficiency - shockingly low for the amount of time invested in it, but they can talk about family, interests, things they like, things they have done, and so on. So they can speak it to that low level.

    That they don't speak it after they leave school is the key point. Whereas people are generally keen to go on and improve their German or Spanish or whatever language they've studied, for many, the Oral exam is pretty much the last time they ever have a conversation in Irish. The desire to improve or maintain the language isn't there, and that's purely down to a lack of motivation.


    I doubt that any Irish advocate anywhere is satisfied with the proficiency levels of school leavers.


    I'd call it a completely deluded attitude, rather than a defeatist one.


    I'd argue that where there is no widespread 'need', there will never be a widespread 'want'.

    I said "don't" speak it. Regardless, the result is the same: the langauge isn't being spoken.

    This is where I have a problem with people pushing compulsion: it clearly doesn't do anything for anyone, and yet it appears to be vital to whatever goals they have for the Irish language. What's that old definition of idiocy...?!

    At this point, advocates of the lanaguge come forward and and say:
      • what they want to achieve
      • is compulsion nessecary (and if so, why?) to achieve this
      • how they think this can be achieved (either with or without compulsion)

      Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



    • #671
      Shep_Dog
      Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


      Shurimgreat wrote: »
      Its possibly right to force Irish on people too. Its part of our identity and culture and if you want to live here, have an Irish passport and so on, you should at least make an effort to integrate with the culture and traditions.
      Most Irish people are not immigrants. They have lived here all their lives and their ancestors, perhaps never spoke Irish or have not done so for hundreds of years. Irish is not part of their identity and culture. It's wrong to make them speak Irish.

      Who are you to decide the culture and traditions others should follow?


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    • #672
      Dughorm
      Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


      Shep_Dog wrote: »
      Perhaps people don't wish to be speak Irish? You constantly refuse to accept the possibility that people might not want to speak Irish and to assume an absolute right to force it on people.

      Perhaps some people don't want to learn English Literature? Perhaps some people don't want to be educated? Would you assume an absolute right to force education on people who didn't want it?
      Shep_Dog wrote: »
      Irish is not a science subject.....

      Totally irrelevant - your argument is that "the cultural formation of the children is primarily the parent's right" and I gave an example of where your argument has stupid consequences.

      Is your argument now "the cultural formation of the children is primarily the parent's right except when it comes to creationism"?
      Shep_Dog wrote: »
      People should have the right to decide what langauges they adopt.

      They do, the census tracks peoples choices in this regard.
      Shep_Dog wrote: »
      We do allow parents to withdraw children from religion classes, but not Irish classes.

      Why would parents withdraw children from religion classes? Only if there isn't an available school to meet their ethos. If the school did meet their ethos they wouldn't withdraw their child from the class. It's not a valid comparison.
      Shep_Dog wrote: »
      Most Irish people are not immigrants. They have lived here all their lives and their ancestors, perhaps never spoke Irish or have not done so for hundreds of years. Irish is not part of their identity and culture. It's wrong to make them speak Irish.

      Who are you to decide the culture and traditions others should follow?

      What you mean to say surely is that it's wrong to make them learn Irish - people are certainly entitled not to speak it if they don't want to.

      Ireland has been a country divided between two cultures - the Gaelic one and the Settled one. It was a country divided between two languages - Irish and English - the new republic recognised this in its choice of languages in the constitution.

      The heritage of both cultures is respected by the State, be it the works of the Gaelic bardic poets or the works of Jonathan Swift. Neither is less Irish. Both should be learned and cherished equally, the education system attempts to achieve this.


    • #673
      LordSutch
      Closed Accounts Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


      Shurimgreat wrote: »
      It is absolutely right to "force" some subjects on people. Its right to force Maths, English, History and one or two other subjects on people. Its possibly right to force Irish on people too. Its part of our identity and culture and if you want to live here, have an Irish passport and so on, you should at least make an effort to integrate with the culture and traditions.

      Bold = BUT THIS APPROACH HAS NOT WORKED FOR EIGHT DECADES!

      And as regards the rest of your post... Irish is not part of my families identity, and speaking Irish is not part of my families culture either. My wife & I don't speak Irish, my parents didn't speak Irish, and neither did my grandparents, and I dare say my children won't either, along with most of their peers . . .

      And before anybody calls me anti Irish or some such, here are a few of my previous posts from this thread, re positive 'ideas' on how to protect and keep the Irish language alive, while sparing those who have no interest in it.

      Link:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98296271&postcount=513
      Link:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98324126&postcount=601
      Link:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98339663&postcount=637

      Lay off the pressure/mandatory nature of its teaching I say, and let the language find its natural (protected) place in Irish society, while removing the stigma some irish people have towards it.


    • #674
      Wibbs
      Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,327 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


      Shurimgreat wrote: »
      Its part of our identity and culture and if you want to live here, have an Irish passport and so on, you should at least make an effort to integrate with the culture and traditions.
      The simple fact is that the Irish language is a very small part of the culture of modern Ireland. Irish sports and music have a far greater impact on our culture and nobody is making them compulsory.
      Imagine someone coming from abroad, not speaking a word of English and you don't force them to learn the language or integrate.
      OK, imagine someone coming from abroad who has learned Irish fluently but knows nada of English. Beyond some tiny communities, or if Ros Na Run needed a new foreign character on the cast list, how far would they get in Ireland?
      Shurimgreat wrote: »
      Hmm let me see...because I basically think American and UK culture is basically sh*t?

      Kim Kardashian is the major US cultural figure of our time FFS, certainly the person most young Irish people would be familiar with. And a lot of similar people.

      Geordie Shore etc, that pretty much sums up much of UK culture.

      So yes, I'd like something different to that thank you.
      This is a perfect example of the kind of dumbed down simplistic thinking we're dealing with here folks. The whole of American and British culture and history rendered down to reality TV "stars". If you think that either example is even scratching the surface of those nations, you really need to get out and read more.

      Oh and please try not to include the rest of us in such ignorance of the wider world, ta very much.

      Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



    • #675
      Paramite Pie
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Paramite Pie


      mossleycnoc wrote: »
      The main reason I detest gaeilge (I refuse to say Irish language because for most of us- certainly anyone outside the west, the main language has been Hiberno-English since well before the famine) is down to gaeilgeor language fascists.

      It wasn't the Irish who labeled our branch of Gaelic as 'Irish' -- it was the Hiberno-English who done that.
      Sleepy wrote: »
      Encourage it amongst my kids?! I actually pondered moving my kids abroad for a couple of years in order to help them avoid it!

      A lad from my school was raised in England till the age of 12, then came to Ireland. His parents enrolled him in Irish in second level despite having zero knowledge of the subject.

      He got an A1 in honours Irish.:pac:

      I agree about the extra points nonsense.


    • #676
      Dughorm
      Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


      Wibbs wrote: »
      The simple fact is that the Irish language is a very small part of the culture of modern Ireland. Irish sports and music have a far greater impact on our culture and nobody is making them compulsory.

      A slight tangent, but I would hazard a guess that Irish sports and music have always had a far greater impact on culture in most people's lives in Ireland.

      What literary work from Ireland, in either language, in the past 10 years has made a big impact? I'm struggling to think of one - that says more about people's interests in general rather than whether and which languages should be learned in schools in my view.


    • #677
      Princess Consuela Bananahammock
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


      Dughorm wrote: »
      Perhaps some people don't want to learn English Literature? Perhaps some people don't want to be educated? Would you assume an absolute right to force education on people who didn't want it?



      Totally irrelevant - your argument is that "the cultural formation of the children is primarily the parent's right" and I gave an example of where your argument has stupid consequences.

      Is your argument now "the cultural formation of the children is primarily the parent's right except when it comes to creationism"?



      They do, the census tracks peoples choices in this regard.



      Why would parents withdraw children from religion classes? Only if there isn't an available school to meet their ethos. If the school did meet their ethos they wouldn't withdraw their child from the class. It's not a valid comparison.



      What you mean to say surely is that it's wrong to make them learn Irish - people are certainly entitled not to speak it if they don't want to.

      Ireland has been a country divided between two cultures - the Gaelic one and the Settled one. It was a country divided between two languages - Irish and English - the new republic recognised this in its choice of languages in the constitution.

      The heritage of both cultures is respected by the State, be it the works of the Gaelic bardic poets or the works of Jonathan Swift. Neither is less Irish. Both should be learned and cherished equally, the education system attempts to achieve this.

      By time you finish the Junior Cert, you should be old enough to kow what you wish to study and what not to study. Even parents listen to their kids (or should, at any rate).

      "Why would parents withdraw children from religion classes? Only if there isn't an available school to meet their ethos." - This happens to a lot of athiest parents.

      Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



    • #678
      Iwasfrozen
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


      Dughorm wrote: »
      A slight tangent, but I would hazard a guess that Irish sports and music have always had a far greater impact on culture in most people's lives in Ireland.

      What literary work from Ireland, in either language, in the past 10 years has made a big impact? I'm struggling to think of one - that says more about people's interests in general rather than whether and which languages should be learned in schools in my view.

      I can think of books that have had an impact on Ireland. I'm not sure why you want to limit it to books from Ireland. One of the great things about being anglophones is the accessibility of books for from the whole anglosphere in one's native language.


    • #679
      Dughorm
      Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


      Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
      By time you finish the Junior Cert, you should be old enough to kow what you wish to study and what not to study. Even parents listen to their kids (or should, at any rate).

      That's a reasonable point, and the argument to make all subjects optional after junior cert is a reasonable one also once the syllabi are designed with that in mind.
      Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
      "Why would parents withdraw children from religion classes? Only if there isn't an available school to meet their ethos." - This happens to a lot of athiest parents.

      Indeed.


    • #680
      Dughorm
      Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


      Iwasfrozen wrote: »
      I can think of books that have had an impact on Ireland. I'm not sure why you want to limit it to books from Ireland. One of the great things about being anglophones is the accessibility of books for from the whole anglosphere in their native language.

      Like Harry Potter ;)

      I limited it to works from Ireland, because the question related to "the culture of modern Ireland" which I take to mean what Ireland is organically bringing to the cultural table, within Ireland itself or further afield.

      By all means we import books from the English speaking world all the time and those all influence our culture/thinking as well.


    • #681
      Iwasfrozen
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


      Dughorm wrote: »
      Like Harry Potter ;)

      I limited it to works from Ireland, because the question related to "the culture of modern Ireland" which I take to mean what Ireland is organically bringing to the cultural table, within Ireland itself or further afield.

      By all means we import books from the English speaking world all the time and those all influence our culture/thinking as well.
      Yes, Harry Potter is a very influential children's book.

      In an ever increasingly globalized world the culture of one country can't be reasonibly looked at in isolation.

      I don't know why we must pit up such ethnic and geographic barriers anyway. I have much more in common with a Nigerian my age and gender than I do a middle aged Irish woman.


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    • #682
      Dughorm
      Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


      Iwasfrozen wrote: »
      In an ever increasingly globalized world the culture of one country can't be reasonibly looked at in isolation.

      That's probably why we see so many phrases like "the English speaking world".

      Yes Ireland, culturally, is certainly a part of the English speaking world, but as I have been arguing, the English speaking world is one part of Ireland, culturally, as well :)


    • #683
      catbear
      Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


      Dughorm wrote: »
      Like Harry Potter ;)
      .
      You can get harry potter in Irish.


    • #684
      Dughorm
      Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


      Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
      Do we have the resources? For teaching adults as well as kids

      There are free resources - I've a list of them here

      There's also an interactive programme with Sharon Ní Bheoláin http://www.rte.ie/tv/turasteanga/

      Edit: And a module for Irish on Duolingo.


    • #685
      _Kaiser_
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,293 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


      I never had to do it (yay!) as a result of living abroad for a few years when I was 9 and thus getting an exemption from the Department when we came home, but also a very stubborn mother whose attitude was that we wouldn't be wasting our time on a dead language that would be of no use to us.

      As a result I usually did homework during those classes, or went to the library and read. Religion was the same story - mam's attitude was that we'd pick our own faith (if any) when old enough to make an informed choice on the matter, rather than having the Catholic Church push its dogma on our young minds. This would have been in the 80s and early 90s.


      Nowadays I have no need or interest in either, but think that far too much time is devoted to both in our schools at a time when our classrooms are increasingly multicultural and multi-faith, and our country depends so much on FDI, the service industry and multinationals for employment in a global economy. The time would be far better spent getting the fundamentals right (Maths and even English) as well as more European languages, mandatory computer classes etc to give kids the best chance they can to get ahead.

      I'm not saying that Irish or Religion should be stamped out, but if you want your kids to know these things.. teach them yourself, or send them to Sunday school or the Gaeltact. Don't force a classroom of 30 kids to sit through it just to satisfy your cultural/religious idealism at the expense of subjects that would be of far more use to them.


    • #686
      Princess Consuela Bananahammock
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


      Dughorm wrote: »
      There are free resources - I've a list of them here

      There's also an interactive programme with Sharon Ní Bheoláin http://www.rte.ie/tv/turasteanga/

      Edit: And a module for Irish on Duolingo.

      But if his mehtods are immersion, then these arent; resource sspecific to his way of teaching.

      All the resources in the world are of no use if poeple aren't interested in learning it

      Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



    • #687
      catbear
      Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


      Dughorm wrote: »
      There are free resources - I've a list of them here

      There's also an interactive programme with Sharon Ní Bheoláin http://www.rte.ie/tv/turasteanga/

      Edit: And a module for Irish on Duolingo.
      None of that is helpful to me. I learn by immersion. Like recently I travelled in south american and picked up loads of spanish in a very short time whereas the learning aids like the ones you posted didn't sink in.


    • #688
      deepesthole
      Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 123 ✭✭deepesthole


      Does anybody really "hate" Irish? The only thing most people hate about it is that it's forced on everybody when it's totally useless to them.


    • #689
      catbear
      Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


      deepesthole wrote: »
      Does anybody really "hate" Irish? The only thing most people hate about it is that it's forced on everybody when it's totally useless to them.
      I agree. I do like Irish but I like Spanish and italian too but I hate compulsory Irish. At least with maths we actually need it to live.


    • #690
      Dughorm
      Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


      Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
      But if his mehtods are immersion, then these arent; resource sspecific to his way of teaching.

      All the resources in the world are of no use if poeple aren't interested in learning it
      catbear wrote: »
      None of that is helpful to me. I learn by immersion. Like recently I travelled in south american and picked up loads of spanish in a very short time whereas the learning aids like the ones you posted didn't sink in.

      Sorry I misread the post - carry on!


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    • #691
      Dughorm
      Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


      Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
      But if his mehtods are immersion, then these arent; resource sspecific to his way of teaching.

      Out of interest, I had a look at his website his introduction surely sounds familiar:
      "At school, I spent 11 years studying Irish (Gaeilge) and 5 years studying German. Even after all this study, I still couldn’t speak them."

      But now he lists conversational Irish as one of his languages and he has a very good page of resources in fairness to him - I hadn't heard of several of his links until now. http://www.fluentin3months.com/irish-learning-resources/

      Edit: His interview and article about school Irish is interesting also - http://www.fluentin3months.com/irish-interview/


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