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Making A Murderer [Netflix - Documentary Series]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 768 ✭✭✭wardides


    The Nal wrote: »
    Had a gun when he shouldn't.
    Threatened a female relative at gunpoint.
    Sent death threats to his ex wife.
    Molested family members (both male and female).


    And all alleged:

    His own kids didnt want him let out the first time.
    He raped at least 1 woman previously and threatened to kill her family if she talked.
    He drew pictures of torture chambers for women in prison.

    Yet the governor of Wisconsin is getting hate mail for not giving him a full pardon!

    And I thought this thread had enough idiotic posts already!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    He couldn't dispose of the huge clue. Hadn't the intelligence or cunning.

    Yet somehow managed to eliminate ALL traces of the victim's DNA and blood, bone, hair etc from his trailer and the garage. But forgot the key.

    I don't disagree. I doubt she was killed in the trailer/garage.

    As I said, I would have acquitted him on reasonable doubt as per the correct process of the legal system. But if someone put a gun to my head and said guilty or innocent, I'd be saying guilty.

    Regardless, from reading up on it and the guys history including some alleged incidents that he was never charged with ( for example Brendan Dassey telling his mother in phone conversation that Steven molested him and his brother which was edited out in documentary), I'm not particularly upset with the guy being behind bars.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Elmo wrote: »
    Having a gun when you shouldn't isn't much of a crime in the US

    It very much is if you're a convicted felon who has served 6 years for a crime which involves threatening someone with a gun by holding it to their head. Some states are extremely strict on the matter even for individuals with no criminal record. If you are in possession of a firearm illegally, you're going to prison.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 793 ✭✭✭Kunkka


    Best thing I've watched in years. Literally watched 7 episodes in a row and now I keep looking up all the more recent stuff regarding the case.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Buer wrote: »
    It very much is if you're a convicted felon who has served 6 years for a crime which involves threatening someone with a gun by holding it to their head. Some states are extremely strict on the matter even for individuals with no criminal record. If you are in possession of a firearm illegally, you're going to prison.

    He possibly has the most right to bare arms considering his treatment by the government.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭Taboola


    Elmo wrote: »
    He possibly has the most right to bare arms considering his treatment by the government.

    How is that anyway logical?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Elmo wrote:
    He possibly has the most right to bare arms considering his treatment by the government.

    He can wear whatever he wants. He still shouldn't have a weapon illegally.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,495 ✭✭✭KatW4


    And to my mind the ex-boyfriend and the brother have got to be in on it. There's a scene just after they find the jeep. The two are interviewed together and the ex just keeps correcting the brother, out the side of his mouth, 'shut up, no, it went like this...'

    I think there is something strange about them too! And also Bobby Dassey is very odd. I'd love to know what really happened but everything seems so corrupt so I doubt anyone will ever know the truth.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Taboola wrote: »
    How is that anyway logical?

    Bar the bad spelling to protect his freedom.

    Though the case against him is very logical.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,773 ✭✭✭✭8-10


    Elmo wrote: »
    Having a gun when you shouldn't isn't much of a crime in the US

    What? It's a felony that got him 5 years in prison.

    Having a gun when you shouldn't is a pretty serious crime in the US and I have no idea why you'd think it's not


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    8-10 wrote: »
    What? It's a felony that got him 5 years in prison.

    Having a gun when you shouldn't is a pretty serious crime in the US and I have no idea why you'd think it's not

    I was being sarcastic and at the same time Ironic.

    Here a man clearly battling with the authorities and this would be the one correct time to use the 2nd Amendment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,773 ✭✭✭✭8-10


    Elmo wrote: »
    Here a man clearly battling with the authorities and this would be the one correct time to use the 2nd Amendment.

    I disagree with that interpretation


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭buckfasterer


    Just finished this evening. Brilliant watch. Can't stand so many people involved in the case now, the prosecution were appalling. Also, the ex boyfriend and brother......something not right there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8 shandyman1


    As mentioned above its most likely Lacrosse.
    Especially given his lack of an Irish name, the location etc(not a hub for Irish activity).

    He already said in an interview it was a gift from an Irish friend.he has never been to Ireland but it is indeed a hurling statue


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭SimonTemplar


    I finished it a few weeks ago and one of the things that stuck with me was how nervous Corburn was on the stand, especially for an experienced cop who probably contributed to many court cases.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Son0vagun


    I'm very suspicious about her Ex and house mate. They "guessed" her password to print off her phone history! They think it was one of her sisters birth dates! That's some guessing! How many chances did her mobile provider give them to guess? 3-5? So to guess her password that quickly is suspicious. I reckon they had her phone, and that allowed them to change her password, and hence check her phone history. Did they fear the phone history? Did they delete her messages? Who knows!

    Also on the morning of the search of Averys yard, the ex or roommate had only one camara, and they gave it to the lady who discovered the car! He also told her where to go, and she discovered the car pretty quickly.

    All suspicious in my opinion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 584 ✭✭✭neonman


    Agree with Son0vagan.

    I find it hard to believe they just guessed the password as well and they took it at face value and didn't investigate them at all. Also the fact that they checked her phone voicemails and some were deleted. Why delete them? Something not right here. I thought throughout the series that the Brother just seemed a little odd to me and also the ex boyfriend. It seemed they had something to hide.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    They should have looked into that more but I don't find the fact that they guessed it far fetched at all. I would think a lot of people would have a decent idea of passwords for one or two loved ones. I've several family members, for example, who have asked me to purchase tickets on their online accounts when they've been out of the country or unavailable. They've had to give me passwords. Most people use variations of their passwords for different accounts. I'm sure that's not an uncommon scenario.

    The ex is suspicious and his answers raise further questions that needed delving into. But why didn't the defence do so? I suspect there's a lot of footage left out as it would tie up such a blatant loose end like him accessing her online accounts. Avery's attorneys have submitted documents highlighting their alternate suspects. The ex didn't feature.

    I think the judgement of the brother of the victim is completely ridiculous. The sheriff's department went on a witch hunt against Avery. Tens of thousands of people are now on a crusade to clear him and, in doing so, commencing a witch hunt against the likes of the victim's brother with far less evidence. Why? Because he looks uncomfortable? Because he mentioned grieving in the early days before she was found?

    Really reminded of this:



    A persuasive portrait of a person without an alternate view is a powerful thing and it really highlights how manipulative the documentary is. The defence have concentrated their suspicious around members of the Avery family as suspects and not the brother or ex at all.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So after watching the whole documentary I was convinced that the two lads were innocent, until I came here and read this thread and other articles.
    Now I’m not so sure, which in my opinion shows the biased view of the documentary (whether they intended it that way or not)

    One thing that is obvious to me is the clear tunnel vision and all out dedication to convicting Avery no matter what the cost; the possible planting of evidence, coercion of Brendan to admit what they wanted to hear, the story telling at a press conference before the trial. All of this was done to guarantee Avery went down for the crime whether he done it or not. He never had a chance of a fair trial, again I’m not sure if he done it or not but I honestly don’t believe there was enough there to 100% say he did.

    A couple of questions I have as I cannot remember due to reading this thread and many other articles.

    1. When the juror dropped out for emergency leave wasn’t Avery given options to either have a mistrial, continue with the 11 jurors or have the other juror replaced. My question being what exactly happens at a mistrial and would that have been beneficial for Avery in anyway?

    2. One thing I seen mentioned by someone was that the EDTA test that was done on the blood stains in the card wasn’t done on the actual tube of blood to prove that EDTA could be detected at all (as a control I assume) but does this help the defense at all? I don’t see how as all it would still prove is that it was Avery’s blood in the car regardless.

    Not really important questions in the scope of things just curious.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,407 ✭✭✭upinthesky


    All i can say is wow, i actually had to google was making a murder real after watching it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 286 ✭✭Anachrony


    I find myself screaming "polygraph them"!!

    If polygraphs actually worked reliably, then that would make trials just a formality. Unfortunately they don't.

    But there are a hundred other things they could have done to investigate properly, if they weren't so negligent.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Anachrony wrote: »
    If polygraphs actually worked reliably, then that would make trials just a formality. Unfortunately they don't.

    But there are a hundred other things they could have done to investigate properly, if they weren't so negligent.

    Wasn't Brendan polygraphed at some stage? I remember reading the full transcript when Michael O Kelly was interviewing him and he was showing Brendan the results saying "see that red line, that shows deception which means you're lying" or something to that affect.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,906 ✭✭✭Joeface


    yeah he did but the polygraph was inconclusive , O Kelly only used it when he laid you all the photo's in front of him and of course that Blue rrrr ...sorry it just gets me every time , Blue ribbon.

    It was never admissible cause it didn't prove or disprove anything

    also this is the document Brendan was asked to sign by O'Kelly

    just in case any parent or teacher wants a copy

    http://gazettereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/form.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,771 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Elmo wrote: »
    Having a gun when you shouldn't isn't much of a crime in the US
    I think running her off the road was part of that crime and he served time for it
    He was in prison and in a very bad place, considering he was convicted for a major crime he did not commit
    Was he imprisoned or arrested for sexual assault against family members?

    Even if his children didn't want him out of prison, that's not a crime. I doubt they know their father considering he didn't see them that much when released.
    Clearly not right.
    Drawing torture chambers and actually building chambers are two very different things.

    I really suggest people watch The Jinx and come back to this series with that series in mind.

    Allegedly Robert Durst is a nice respectable man, from a nice respectable home, only ever killed someone in self defense, was a good husband, a good son, a good son-in-law etc etc

    A lot of the above are not crimes no, but do cast a (further) shadow of doubt over his character. The black and white nature of online society is being shown up with this. No grey area whatsoever. People seem to think hes innocent and some sort of angel purely by whats been presented to them in a TV show.

    The Jinx is fantastic. A far superior documentary both in subject matter and as entertainment. Making a Murderer goes on a bit! Gets a bit boring after 5 or 6 episodes when the bias becomes very obvious.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Joeface wrote: »
    yeah he did but the polygraph was inconclusive , O Kelly only used it when he laid you all the photo's in front of him and of course that Blue rrrr ...sorry it just gets me every time , Blue ribbon.

    It was never admissible cause it didn't prove or disprove anything

    also this is the document Brendan was asked to sign by O'Kelly

    just in case any parent or teacher wants a copy

    http://gazettereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/form.png

    Such a horrible person that O Kelly guy, did you read the full transcript of that interview? He tries to make Brendan take the ribbon with him as he is leaving the room once the interview is over.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 30,542 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Having finished it a few days ago, the way the show was put together made me feel a tad uneasy. I know this is probably heresy for the thousands of people who became engrossed in the documentary over very short periods time, but I'm going to be honest: I found the decision to position it as a 'binge-watch' courtroom thriller detracted from the piece both journalistically and artistically. If the outcome of the trail had been made clear at an earlier stage, I believe the filmmakers would have put the viewers in a stronger position to analyse and engage with the material. Yeah, I say this aware of the fact that it would likely have lacked the cultural crossover appeal in that case, but IMO it would have made for a stronger documentary. I also think the structural decisions sort of downplay the tragedy of Teresa Halbach - somebody was really murdered here, and compared to similarly themed documentaries I feel that's something that's handled somewhat carelessly. And in the 'internet detective' age, I continue to find it unfortunate the almost witch-hunt impact documentaries like this have - although that, to be be fair, is not necessarily a problem with the production itself.

    The selective perspective is also something I found problematic. Strangely, I found that Steven remained an enigma - which made me less willing to get on the directors' and lawyer's argument that he was innocent. Don't get me wrong - in terms of portraying the class and prosecution-favouring biases inherent in the US court system, it does a good job, and it's a subject worth constantly exploring (if well covered already in IMO a number of superior productions - but the problem hasn't gone away, and is unlikely to anytime soon). I also believe that there was more than enough reasonable doubt to make the verdicts seem quite outrageous, especially in Brendan's case, assuming definitive evidence wasn't held back in the series. In that sense there was a potential miscarriage of justice here worth documenting. But perhaps ironically the decision to spend so much time with Steven's defence and efforts to humanise him left me on the fence, despite the filmmakers' IMO clear position on said fence. In the end, I didn't feel that I got a good grasp on Avery as an individual, so I didn't fully buy into some of the arguments being presented.

    While series 1 of Serial wasn't perfect, I think it's an interesting comparison with this. Sarah Koenig I felt managed to explore a case where there was very possibly a wrongful conviction. The difference is I felt that presented the case in a more balanced, even-handed way, where all parties were given sufficient space to make their cases. Listeners were left with questions that were purposely difficult to answer, with no definitive 'correct' interpretation. Despite the lack of the filmmakers' own voices here, it strangely feels like a more explicitly authored piece of work - and while some of the footage and evidence presented here is compelling and at times shocking, the 'whole' doesn't feel quite as comprehensively presented as its ten-hour running time would suggest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,906 ✭✭✭Joeface


    Good write up ,johnny

    As I have watched back some of the episodes just to clarify some stuff , I don't believe the bias is intentional.
    I think Avery's defense team are extremely good at what they do. And with how they were recommended to him , 2 lawyers from different companies working together (There is a Buddy movie here I swear ). They are a serious force .

    It may have influenced the prosecution decision on having that press conference detailing Brendan's account.
    It is hard to dismiss that information broadcast in the many it was with the child safety warning before hand when a counter argument is been presented to you as a juror in court.(I never get that thing where a judge tells you to disregard that comment or statement , only makes me think more about it )

    Those that bias you against the result do it with their personality and how they act . len , Kelly , Colburn , Fassbender , Kratz . Come across as over sure and kinda self righteous . And the more you view them it didn't need fancy editing to get that. For the most part I didn't mind Ken Kratz felt he was prosecuting with the evidence he had been give to use . Some good but some easy to pick a part. He just becomes more despicable as the case goes on cause the evidence is so disputed. I am sure he was frustrated with Police and their methods but ya gotta work with whats in front of you.

    like said Essay's will be wrote on this subject.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,179 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Son0vagun wrote: »
    I'm very suspicious about her Ex and house mate. They "guessed" her password to print off her phone history! They think it was one of her sisters birth dates! That's some guessing! How many chances did her mobile provider give them to guess? 3-5? So to guess her password that quickly is suspicious. I reckon they had her phone, and that allowed them to change her password, and hence check her phone history. Did they fear the phone history? Did they delete her messages? Who knows!

    Also on the morning of the search of Averys yard, the ex or roommate had only one camara, and they gave it to the lady who discovered the car! He also told her where to go, and she discovered the car pretty quickly.

    All suspicious in my opinion.

    Yes. The guy had serious alarm bells ringing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,198 ✭✭✭PressRun


    While series 1 of Serial wasn't perfect, I think it's an interesting comparison with this. Sarah Koenig I felt managed to explore a case where there was very possibly a wrongful conviction. The difference is I felt that presented the case in a more balanced, even-handed way, where all parties were given sufficient space to make their cases. Listeners were left with questions that were purposely difficult to answer, with no definitive 'correct' interpretation. Despite the lack of the filmmakers' own voices here, it strangely feels like a more explicitly authored piece of work - and while some of the footage and evidence presented here is compelling and at times shocking, the 'whole' doesn't feel quite as comprehensively presented as its ten-hour running time would suggest.

    I definitely think the documentary was better than Serial. I think it touched on more far-reaching issues than just a murder mystery (the class system in the US for a start), which made it more compelling to me than Serial. I also think that Serial was definitely making a case for Adnan Syed's innocence (in fact, I know very few people who weren't immediately on the "Free Adnan" bandwagon after that podcast), and the murder of Hae was as much in the background as Teresa Hallbach in this documentary. The victims are often forgotten in true crime documentaries or books, or their lives and deaths are sensationalized (lest we forget how Truman Capote turned the murders of an entire family into a fictionalized drama, and I would imagine the filmmakers here took a few leaves out of his book). That's one of the hazards of the genre and it's been happening since the advent of true crime. It would seem to me to be quite difficult to tell a story about a mysterious murder without it coming off as stranger than fiction, because it often is! True crime, by its very nature, is quite sensational and it's a profitable genre, and the dramatization of real murders is hardly new. Interest in this sort of material or the notion of the amateur detective didn't just emerge in the age of the internet, it's just become easier for people to dig and find more information these days, as well as bridging the gaps between the audience and the individuals at the centre of the story (whether that's for better or for worse is debatable).

    I also don't think there's any such thing as total objectivity in these sort of documentaries. There's always some sort of narrative slant or agenda at play. That's not to say that the point the filmmakers are trying to get at isn't correct though, or that there isn't considerable artistic merit in how true crime stories are told. For all the debate around whether Captoe's novel is sensationalist or whether he sympathizes more with the murderers than the murdered, it's still widely regarded as a great piece of work.

    I think it's worth mentioning too that the filmmakers said that the prosecution team were asked to take part and declined. They're now complaining that they weren't given a chance to offer their side and that the documentary didn't show all the evidence that supposedly prove Steven Avery's guilt. Of course, they're yet to actually produce any of this evidence.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    The Nal wrote: »
    A lot of the above are not crimes no, but do cast a (further) shadow of doubt over his character. The black and white nature of online society is being shown up with this. No grey area whatsoever. People seem to think hes innocent and some sort of angel purely by whats been presented to them in a TV show.

    The Jinx is fantastic. A far superior documentary both in subject matter and as entertainment. Making a Murderer goes on a bit! Gets a bit boring after 5 or 6 episodes when the bias becomes very obvious.

    My point really was anything Avery did in the past goes to character yet if you look a Robert Durst's past it makes out to be a normal rich man.

    IMO Making the Murder drags at its mid point, and picks up again.


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