Had we better leaders a century ago?

wendell borton · 04-01-2016 11:39PM

We need another Otto Von Bismarck.

MRnotlob606 · 04-01-2016 11:43PM

The reason we look upon those as great leaders was because they lived in extremely adverse times- there were wars, more diseases, High infant morality rates etc. Today we live in much propitious circumstances - Its easier to ridicule our leaders today, They aren't faced with the same challenges that we had in the past.

MRnotlob606 · 04-01-2016 11:44PM

wendell borton wrote: »

We need another Otto Von Bismarck.

Or Napoleon or De Gaulle

04-01-2016 11:50PM

Mycroft H wrote: »

WT Cosgrave. Most under appreciated Irish political figure ever. He was of his time, but he was the best Taoiseach (Or president of the ex. council if you must) we ever had.

- Brought peace and democracy to a country in civil war
- An apolitical civil service
- Brought the Army under heel, preventing more bloodshed
- Setting up of an unarmed police force.
- The ESB and Ardnacrusha.
- Irish Sugar and other state bodies to provide employment
- Women Suffrage before the UK
- First commonwealth nation to sit at the Leauge of Nations
- A firm democrat at the time of when all sorts of communism/fascism was fashionable around Europe.

You gloss over issues like the executions during the Civil War, and his cabinets knowledge of the Army's role in atrocities like Ballyseedy, the Boundary Commission, his deference to the Church and close personal friendship with McQuaid etc. etc.

The_Kew_Tour · 04-01-2016 11:53PM

We had more honest Politicians 50+ years ago anyway that's for sure.

thee glitz · 04-01-2016 11:57PM

Bulbous Salutation wrote: »

We do, and I'd suggest that in the fullness of time a more nuanced and detailed history of what happened, the decisions made, the actors involved will be produced by a range of economic historians.

I certainly hope so.

Back on topic, they're not comparable due to the difference in challenges.

biko · 05-01-2016 01:15AM

It was better long ago.
The longer ago, the better.

Permabear · 05-01-2016 01:37AM

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screamer · 05-01-2016 01:41AM

They had courage and were willing to lay down their lives for what they believed in.
I doubt they'd be impressed with the bunch of snivelling self serving pen pushing "leaders" we've seen in our last hundred years. Not worth fighting and dying for that anyways.

There's not a country on this earth for which human blood has not been spilled to establish and protect.

eeguy · 05-01-2016 01:46AM

screamer wrote: »

They had courage and were willing to lay down their lives for what they believed in.
I doubt they'd be impressed with the bunch of snivelling self serving pen pushing "leaders" we've seen in our last hundred years. Not worth fighting and dying for that anyways.

There's not a country on this earth for which human blood has not been spilled to establish and protect so calling those who have their lives blood thirsty needs a bit of perspective.

So you're a fervent ISIS supporter too?

Everything you said could be directly applied to them.

Permabear · 05-01-2016 01:51AM

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05-01-2016 03:32AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Ah but Pearse didn't actually say WWI was good, did he? And Dev didn't say he loved poverty either.

What we have is you taking the worst inferences from what they said (eg. that Pearse said "blood spilled for any and every reason is great",..which he didn't) and basing an assessment of their entire contribution on that one comment.

topmanamillion · 05-01-2016 05:46AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ah but Pearse didn't actually say WWI was good, did he? And Dev didn't say he loved poverty either.

What we have is you taking the worst inferences from what they said (eg. that Pearse said "blood spilled for any and every reason is great",..which he didn't) and basing an assessment of their entire contribution on that one comment.

I suppose you'd claim De Valera calling to the home of the German envoy to Ireland to offer his condolences on the death of Hitler was also misleading?

ninebeanrows · 05-01-2016 06:49AM

No, again media hype.

If anything the leaders of today are better, they have to be, more regulation, less corruption.

You'd be a fool to think the leader's of the past were great, noble men with an great strive for a Irish utopia.

They would of taken their back-handers more then the men in power today.

Nostalgia is just that. Just like you look back at a holiday 10 years ago and think how amazing it was, when in-fact it was probably hell!

05-01-2016 07:44AM

topmanamillion wrote: »

I suppose you'd claim De Valera calling to the home of the German envoy to Ireland to offer his condolences on the death of Hitler was also misleading?

How do you mean it was misleading?

It was exactly what it was, a courtesy paid to a diplomat in Ireland by the leader of a neutral country. Badly judged, perhaps, but what do you think it really meant?

Junkyard Tom · 05-01-2016 08:17AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You missed a bit at the end there ever-so-conveniently.

crazygeryy · 05-01-2016 08:20AM

Rubbish.they had far less problems to deal with.and I'm not saying our leaders are doing a good job by the way.

K-9 · 05-01-2016 08:51AM

Mycroft H wrote: »

WT Cosgrave. Most under appreciated Irish political figure ever. He was of his time, but he was the best Taoiseach (Or president of the ex. council if you must) we ever had.

- Brought peace and democracy to a country in civil war
- An apolitical civil service
- Brought the Army under heel, preventing more bloodshed
- Setting up of an unarmed police force.
- The ESB and Ardnacrusha.
- Irish Sugar and other state bodies to provide employment
- Women Suffrage before the UK
- First commonwealth nation to sit at the Leauge of Nations
- A firm democrat at the time of when all sorts of communism/fascism was fashionable around Europe.

The big drawback in hindsight was establishing the Catholic Church as such a force in Ireland. DeV gets the blame but it started under the CnaG administrations.

Don't know why John Redmond wasn't mrntioned. He was our political leader 100 years ago.

05-01-2016 08:58AM

K-9 wrote: »

The big drawback in hindsight was establishing the Catholic Church as such a force in Ireland. DeV gets the blame but it started under the CnaG administrations.

Don't know why John Redmond wasn't mrntioned. He was our political leader 100 years ago.

WT was much closer than Dev to Archbishop McQuaid. They were close friends.

Trump4Prez · 05-01-2016 09:23AM

I think history paints a very romantic view of past leaders.

Heroditas · 05-01-2016 09:30AM

blackcard wrote: »

The question was relating to leaders. I read a piece in the Sindo the weekend where Niamh Horan was decrying the fact that the current leaders did not have the guts of the leaders a century ago

A Niamh Horan article is hardly an ideal starting point.
I stupidly read the article.
It wouldn't look out of place in one of the comments sections on the Indo or Times Facebook pages.

seamus · 05-01-2016 09:52AM

screamer wrote: »

They had courage and were willing to lay down their lives for what they believed in.

Yeah, most people back then were pretty narrow-minded alright.

For the sake of saying a few empty words, they pushed the country into a vicious civil war which was ultimately unnecessary because they lost anyway.

Being willing to shed blood (especially other people's blood) for your beliefs is not objectively an honourable thing. It's selfish and narrow-minded.

De Valera himself was a wiley character, but he started Ireland down a path which gave us a state that barely functioned for the first 60-odd years. Again, due to his narrow-minded personal vision for a Catholic Ireland. Rather than building a genuine republic, he chose one that was ruled by proxy from the Vatican.

Sh1tbag OToole · 05-01-2016 10:27AM

Enda will be remembered for the great job he done convincing us all we need to pay property tax in order to save the country

Balmed Out · 05-01-2016 10:58AM

Mmmm Wt Cosgrave was even more devisive, don't remember all the details but at the very least wasn't it he who introduced the death for republican prisoners without trial. I think he was also a key figure in the treaty of Westminster which opened the door to Ireland becoming a Republic and the commonwealth replacing the empire.

ScumLord · 05-01-2016 11:13AM

Enda could be just as good at ordering assassinations as Collins was, we have to give him a chance.

I think we'd find that if we could meet up with most characters from history we'd find they were a lot of horrible people. You didn't get to the top and get put in charge of people back then because you were nice.

Agricola · 05-01-2016 11:25AM

Enda and the current government will almost certainly be viewed in a positive light a hundred years from now. The details get fuzzy or lost over time when it comes to general public perspective, of course academics will know the ins and outs but I think Irish people in 2116 will look back on these people as the saviors of the nation.
The fact that they and the outgoing Fianna Fail party chose an austerity path, forced the citizen to bail out private enterprise, the hardship and emigration etc etc will all be forgotten. As indeed, it is already starting to be forgotten now that Ireland is on the up n up.

SEPT 23 1989 · 05-01-2016 11:38AM

Agricola wrote: »

Enda and the current government will almost certainly be viewed in a positive light a hundred years from now. The details get fuzzy or lost over time when it comes to general public perspective, of course academics will know the ins and outs but I think Irish people in 2116 will look back on these people as the saviors of the nation.
The fact that they and the outgoing Fianna Fail party chose an austerity path, forced the citizen to bail out private enterprise, the hardship and emigration etc etc will all be forgotten. As indeed, it is already starting to be forgotten now that Ireland is on the up n up.

nobody over 30 will forget this in a hurry

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 05-01-2016 11:54AM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

nobody over 30 will forget this in a hurry

I'm not sure what the intent is here, but as someone well over 30 I certainly won't forget how this government dragged us back from a recession so quickly. I I applaud them and that's not something I do for politicians very often.

Choochtown · 05-01-2016 12:11PM

1925: Shannon Electric scheme is introduced. The BIGGEST hydroelectric power station in the WORLD is built in Ireland to supply 80% of the country's energy needs.

2012: 55 MILLION Euro worth of electronic voting machines are sold by the government for 70 thousand euro to be shredded and scrapped.

Agricola · 05-01-2016 12:17PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

nobody over 30 will forget this in a hurry

True, but time is a great healer, as is money. Was a good Christmas for retail by all accounts, consumer confidence is coming back, new car sales increasing.... when people have the a job, their kids have jobs and theres a bit of money floating about, all is good in the world. What happened back in September '08 again? Im not too sure........ oh look the new iphone is out!

I think FF will be back in government in some shape or form inside 10 years, quite possibly Election 2021. Short memories.

Had we better leaders a century ago?

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