Had we better leaders a century ago?

blackcard

Padraig Pearce, Michael Collins, De Velera, Griffith, Larkin, Cosgrove versus Kenny, Martin, Burton, Adams, Murphy and Wallace. Did we have better leaders a century ago?

tomwaterford

blackcard wrote: »

Padraig Pearce, Michael Collins, De Velera, Griffith, Larkin, Cosgrove versus Kenny, Martin, Burton, Adams, Murphy and Wallace. Did we have better leaders a century ago?

Of the ones a century ago....only one of em lived long enough to be comparable de velera?

the_syco

blackcard wrote: »

Did we have better leaders a century ago?

The general public had less info about them, than we do of our current leaders.

Barry Badrinath

Completely different circumstances, therefore incomparable.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

In short. No.

Nobody elected Pearse or Connolly for a start. Larkin? Not a political leader.

Different times leave comparisons pointless really.
I've seen 12 taoisigh so far and each had to deal with different circumstances. Some were better than others, in my opinion, but not to any great extent.


Leaves before government bashing resumes.....

RobertKK

Modern leaders negotiate things and don't use violence unless stupid...

4zn76tysfajdxp

blackcard wrote: »

Padraig Pearce, Michael Collins, De Velera, Griffith, Larkin, Cosgrove versus Kenny, Martin, Burton, Adams, Murphy and Wallace. Did we have better leaders a century ago?

Enda Kenny will be revered by the Irish in one hundred years. His government rescued a country on the brink and turned it into the fastest growing economy in Europe.

Irish people just love whinging and mouthing off. :rolleyes:

Yeah what happened from 100-90 years ago shows what fantastic leaders we had. And the compromise of Partition had absolutely no knock-on effects whatsoever, no siree.

Sheep Lover

Coraline Helpful Bleach wrote: »

Enda Kenny will be revered by the Irish in one hundred years. His government rescued a country on the brink and turned it into the fastest growing economy in Europe.

Irish people just love whinging and mouthing off. :rolleyes:

Er.... If this isn't Enda himself I'd be quite worried about your mental state.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

blackcard wrote: »

Padraig Pearce, Michael Collins, De Velera, Griffith, Larkin, Cosgrove versus Kenny, Martin, Burton, Adams, Murphy and Wallace. Did we have better leaders a century ago?

I meant to ask. What do you think yourself???

blackcard

Crosby Scary Lawyer wrote: »

In short. No.

Nobody elected Pearse or Connolly for a start. Larkin? Not a political leader.

Different times leave comparisons pointless really.
I've seen 13 taoisigh so far and each had to deal with different circumstances. Some were better than others, in my opinion, but not to any great extent.


Leaves before government bashing resumes.....

The question was relating to leaders. I read a piece in the Sindo the weekend where Niamh Horan was decrying the fact that the current leaders did not have the guts of the leaders a century ago

Jesus Wept

everything was better

tomwaterford

Coraline Helpful Bleach wrote: »

Enda Kenny will be revered by the Irish in one hundred years. His government rescued a country on the brink and turned it into the fastest growing economy in Europe.

Irish people just love whinging and mouthing off. :rolleyes:

:pac: :pac: :pac:


A certain German based Galway accountant couldn't try wind people up as quick :pac:

eeguy

Crosby Scary Lawyer wrote: »

I meant to ask. What do you think yourself???

Hard to get past all the romanticism of that era now.

I'm sure many weren't too happy with pearse et al when they were sweeping up the shattered remains of Sackville St.

oppenheimer1

Coraline Helpful Bleach wrote: »

Enda Kenny will be revered by the Irish in one hundred years. His government rescued a country on the brink and turned it into the fastest growing economy in Europe.

Irish people just love whinging and mouthing off. :rolleyes:

There has been nothing really innovative by the current government that led to the country turning around. What we can really thank is a weak euro.

pvt6zh395dqbrj

Crosby Scary Lawyer wrote: »

In short. No.

Nobody elected Pearse or Connolly for a start. Larkin? Not a political leader.

Different times leave comparisons pointless really.
I've seen 13 taoisigh so far and each had to deal with different circumstances. Some were better than others, in my opinion, but not to any great extent.


Leaves before government bashing resumes.....

You've seen all the taoisigh???

feargale

Mick Wallace is the daddy of them all. In 2116 I can visualise Wallace's Pillar where Nelson used to be.

eeguy

feargale wrote: »

Mick Wallace is the daddy of them all. In 2116 I can visualise Wallace's Pillar where Nelson used to be.

All bronze except for the pink shirt

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

blackcard wrote: »

The question was relating to leaders. I read a piece in the Sindo the weekend where Niamh Horan was decrying the fact that the current leaders did not have the guts of the leaders a century ago

Pearse nor Connolly were popular leaders. They didn't lead a nation so how can we compare. Both actually had potential but I don't think many of us today would follow the paths they sought - and very divergent paths they were.
I also don't think we'd vote for the socialist utopia envisaged by Larkin.

"Guts" is a pointless term in the context of very different situations a century apart.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Donald Narrow Jaguar wrote: »

You've seen all the taoisigh???

Now that you mention it it's 12. Dev onwards.

kingchess

Ha-trick question,\our leaders 100 years were the Government based in London,

Bulbous Salutation

Coraline Helpful Bleach wrote: »

Enda Kenny will be revered by the Irish in one hundred years. His government rescued a country on the brink and turned it into the fastest growing economy in Europe.

Irish people just love whinging and mouthing off. :rolleyes:

The victors tend to write history. I'd also suggest that the minor shortcomings of Kenny will be taken in the wider context of an excellent Government who restored the economic sovereignty of this country, and legislated for many very important social issues.

This will be explored by historians who will have a wealth of primary sources. I think we can all agree that they won't be perusing the archives of the Journal.ie circa 2013 looking for the opinions of Kenny by a bunch of mouth breathing morons.

So just like we don't tend to hear of Lemass's volcanic temper and lack of attention to detail, I doubt future dilettantes of history will hear about Kenny not being a great public speaker, or that he didn't stand round in his wellies during a flood.

blackcard

Crosby Scary Lawyer wrote: »

I meant to ask. What do you think yourself???

I think that the leaders of a century ago were judged in relation to getting the British out of Ireland and they were obviously very committed to this. They didn't have to concern themselves with floods, hospital trolleys, unemployment etc. I think they are judged kindly. Current politicians have a harder task in being judged and there is far more information in relation to them .However, I can't think of any current leader who is in any way inspirational

Bulbous Salutation

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There has been nothing really innovative by the current government that led to the country turning around. What we can really thank is a weak euro.

Tosh.

Renegotiating the terms of our bailout, cutting the VAT rate to 9% for certain business sectors, attracting record levels of FDI to Ireland through attractive R&D terms. The current Government and our fine Civil Service have done an excellent job in turning the economy around.

Mycroft H

WT Cosgrave. Most under appreciated Irish political figure ever. He was of his time, but he was the best Taoiseach (Or president of the ex. council if you must) we ever had.

- Brought peace and democracy to a country in civil war
- An apolitical civil service
- Brought the Army under heel, preventing more bloodshed
- Setting up of an unarmed police force.
- The ESB and Ardnacrusha.
- Irish Sugar and other state bodies to provide employment
- Women Suffrage before the UK
- First commonwealth nation to sit at the Leauge of Nations
- A firm democrat at the time of when all sorts of communism/fascism was fashionable around Europe.

jimmycrackcorm

I suppose the closest comparison would be between the rising leaders and Gerry Adams. Both fought the Brits and but Gerry is better at tweeting about a teddy bear or something...

hytrogen

Digresses to the Rubberbandits point of view for political and historic accuracy..
http://www.rte.ie/player/show/10511090

thee glitz

Bulbous Salutation wrote: »

Renegotiating the terms of our bailout

We still have all that scandalous debt.

Bulbous Salutation

thee glitz wrote: »

We still have all that scandalous debt.

We do, and I'd suggest that in the fullness of time a more nuanced and detailed history of what happened, the decisions made, the actors involved will be produced by a range of economic historians.

Barry Badrinath

The lads from a century ago were great and all but...

...they never gave us free cheese!

The_Valeyard

W.T Cosgrave & Sean Lemass. Both great leaders.

wendell borton

We need another Otto Von Bismarck.

MRnotlob606

The reason we look upon those as great leaders was because they lived in extremely adverse times- there were wars, more diseases, High infant morality rates etc. Today we live in much propitious circumstances - Its easier to ridicule our leaders today, They aren't faced with the same challenges that we had in the past.

MRnotlob606

wendell borton wrote: »

We need another Otto Von Bismarck.

Or Napoleon or De Gaulle

Mycroft H

Mycroft H wrote: »

WT Cosgrave. Most under appreciated Irish political figure ever. He was of his time, but he was the best Taoiseach (Or president of the ex. council if you must) we ever had.

- Brought peace and democracy to a country in civil war
- An apolitical civil service
- Brought the Army under heel, preventing more bloodshed
- Setting up of an unarmed police force.
- The ESB and Ardnacrusha.
- Irish Sugar and other state bodies to provide employment
- Women Suffrage before the UK
- First commonwealth nation to sit at the Leauge of Nations
- A firm democrat at the time of when all sorts of communism/fascism was fashionable around Europe.

You gloss over issues like the executions during the Civil War, and his cabinets knowledge of the Army's role in atrocities like Ballyseedy, the Boundary Commission, his deference to the Church and close personal friendship with McQuaid etc. etc.

The_Kew_Tour

We had more honest Politicians 50+ years ago anyway that's for sure.

thee glitz

Bulbous Salutation wrote: »

We do, and I'd suggest that in the fullness of time a more nuanced and detailed history of what happened, the decisions made, the actors involved will be produced by a range of economic historians.

I certainly hope so.

Back on topic, they're not comparable due to the difference in challenges.

biko

It was better long ago.
The longer ago, the better.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

screamer

They had courage and were willing to lay down their lives for what they believed in.
I doubt they'd be impressed with the bunch of snivelling self serving pen pushing "leaders" we've seen in our last hundred years. Not worth fighting and dying for that anyways.

There's not a country on this earth for which human blood has not been spilled to establish and protect.

eeguy

screamer wrote: »

They had courage and were willing to lay down their lives for what they believed in.
I doubt they'd be impressed with the bunch of snivelling self serving pen pushing "leaders" we've seen in our last hundred years. Not worth fighting and dying for that anyways.

There's not a country on this earth for which human blood has not been spilled to establish and protect so calling those who have their lives blood thirsty needs a bit of perspective.

So you're a fervent ISIS supporter too?

Everything you said could be directly applied to them.

Permabear

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Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Ah but Pearse didn't actually say WWI was good, did he? And Dev didn't say he loved poverty either.

What we have is you taking the worst inferences from what they said (eg. that Pearse said "blood spilled for any and every reason is great",..which he didn't) and basing an assessment of their entire contribution on that one comment.

topmanamillion

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ah but Pearse didn't actually say WWI was good, did he? And Dev didn't say he loved poverty either.

What we have is you taking the worst inferences from what they said (eg. that Pearse said "blood spilled for any and every reason is great",..which he didn't) and basing an assessment of their entire contribution on that one comment.

I suppose you'd claim De Valera calling to the home of the German envoy to Ireland to offer his condolences on the death of Hitler was also misleading?

ninebeanrows

No, again media hype.

If anything the leaders of today are better, they have to be, more regulation, less corruption.

You'd be a fool to think the leader's of the past were great, noble men with an great strive for a Irish utopia.

They would of taken their back-handers more then the men in power today.

Nostalgia is just that. Just like you look back at a holiday 10 years ago and think how amazing it was, when in-fact it was probably hell!

topmanamillion

topmanamillion wrote: »

I suppose you'd claim De Valera calling to the home of the German envoy to Ireland to offer his condolences on the death of Hitler was also misleading?

How do you mean it was misleading?

It was exactly what it was, a courtesy paid to a diplomat in Ireland by the leader of a neutral country. Badly judged, perhaps, but what do you think it really meant?

Junkyard Tom

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You missed a bit at the end there ever-so-conveniently.

crazygeryy

Rubbish.they had far less problems to deal with.and I'm not saying our leaders are doing a good job by the way.

K-9

Mycroft H wrote: »

WT Cosgrave. Most under appreciated Irish political figure ever. He was of his time, but he was the best Taoiseach (Or president of the ex. council if you must) we ever had.

- Brought peace and democracy to a country in civil war
- An apolitical civil service
- Brought the Army under heel, preventing more bloodshed
- Setting up of an unarmed police force.
- The ESB and Ardnacrusha.
- Irish Sugar and other state bodies to provide employment
- Women Suffrage before the UK
- First commonwealth nation to sit at the Leauge of Nations
- A firm democrat at the time of when all sorts of communism/fascism was fashionable around Europe.

The big drawback in hindsight was establishing the Catholic Church as such a force in Ireland. DeV gets the blame but it started under the CnaG administrations.

Don't know why John Redmond wasn't mrntioned. He was our political leader 100 years ago.

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

The big drawback in hindsight was establishing the Catholic Church as such a force in Ireland. DeV gets the blame but it started under the CnaG administrations.

Don't know why John Redmond wasn't mrntioned. He was our political leader 100 years ago.

WT was much closer than Dev to Archbishop McQuaid. They were close friends.

Trump4Prez

I think history paints a very romantic view of past leaders.