What to tell kids when they ask?

recedite · 28-12-2015 04:20PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I should probably have been clearer alright. The lifestyle choices I'm referring to are people's choice to have children in the first place, in a country where they are more than aware of the education system in Ireland, yet every year it's the same thing - "I've had to put my child in a religious ethos school and I don't like it!"

This has to be one of the meanest and most offensive posts I've ever had the misfortune of seeing in this forum.

looksee · 28-12-2015 04:23PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't know how you managed to deduce that from what I wrote at all in fairness. I made no declarations about continuing any Catholic way of life nor education system in this country. If anything, I've suggested the opposite - that it cannot continue as it currently stands, because Ireland is becoming a more and more multicultural society.

People are going to have families, and those families need to be accommodated, and clearly schools with a Catholic ethos aren't suitable for their needs. The point is that schools with a Catholic ethos aren't going anywhere, and so it is incumbent upon the State to make suitable provisions for those parents who do not want to send their children to schools with a Catholic ethos. One of the issues the State needs to address is not the lack of places in unsuitable schools, but the lack of suitable schools.

That likely won't happen in yours or my lifetime, and it certainly won't happen a few months after enrolment when a parent realises just what their child is being exposed to in a school with a Catholic ethos.

I don't see how this is not a very clear statement:

I should probably have been clearer alright. The lifestyle choices I'm referring to are people's choice to have children in the first place, in a country where they are more than aware of the education system in Ireland, yet every year it's the same thing - "I've had to put my child in a religious ethos school and I don't like it!". Well it's not like they had four years to prepare for that eventuality.

What preparation were they supposed to make, assuming they were irresponsible enough to have children?

MikeSD · 28-12-2015 04:28PM

Kenny Bania wrote: »

Hi all,

I have a kid in her first year in a catholic primary school. She has been opted out of religion class amicably with the teacher & principal - no issues. She does not do the religion book - she does a colouring book instead. So all agreeable there.

However, she is obviously picking up some things through osmosis. I'm not worried about her being indoctrinated, as it's simply not a part of her life or her world outside of overhearing a few things in school - but when she makes (what she considers) throwaway comments to me like "god made all of us" - what exactly should I respond with?
I don't want to get technical, and say we're all star dust, etc - but I do want to correct her as much as appropriate. At the same time, I don't want her shouting out in class that "my daddy says there is no god", etc.

Suggestions? It's a delicate balance. I want to correct any misconceptions she may pick up, but also don't want her correcting other people in the classroom environment.

Thanks in advance.

If you feel so strongly about all this, why did you send your children to a Catholic school?
They're likely going to feel like outsiders in this school as they're treated differently to all the other pupils.

Help!!!! · 28-12-2015 04:29PM

looksee wrote: »

I don't see how this is not a very clear statement:

What preparation were they supposed to make, assuming they were irresponsible enough to have children?

Well not act all surprised that theres religion classes being taught in a religious run school would be a start

looksee · 28-12-2015 04:34PM

MikeSD wrote: »

If you feel so strongly about all this, why did you send your children to a Catholic school?
They're likely going to feel like outsiders in this school as they're treated differently to all the other pupils.

Help!!!! wrote: »

Well not act all surprised that theres religion classes being taught in a religious run school would be a start

To save us going round in any more circles, do you think you could catch up on the discussion before asking any more questions?

MikeSD · 28-12-2015 04:35PM

looksee wrote: »

To save us going round in any more circles, do you think you could catch up on the discussion before asking any more questions?

I'd rather not spend ages reading pages of a thread.

Help!!!! · 28-12-2015 04:37PM

looksee wrote: »

To save us going round in any more circles, do you think you could catch up on the discussion before asking any more questions?

Maybe you should take your own advise & read the post that my response was for

28-12-2015 04:41PM

Tell them the truth. That you don't believe in God (Or that God). That there's nothing wrong in believing in different Gods. Like there's nothing wrong with being vegetarian. Keep it light until the Confirmation fun starts!

I firmly believe that all religion should be taken out of schools. Let the Parents be their Religious Instruction teachers and free up the time for other subjects. It's amazing how much time is given over to Religion, especially in Communion or Confirmation classes. A whole new language could be learned in that time.

One eyed Jack · 28-12-2015 05:12PM

looksee wrote: »

What preparation were they supposed to make, assuming they were irresponsible enough to have children?

That's not an assumption I made? If you want to suggest that people are irresponsible for having children, then you take responsibility for that assumption, rather than trying to put it on me.

It's hardly controversial to suggest that if people choose to have children, then their children are their responsibility, and their children's welfare is their responsibility, and if they have four years to prepare for sending their children to school, what they do in that time to prepare for that day is also their responsibility.

I will absolutely go out of my way to help people who I see trying to help themselves, but why should I be willing to give that same amount of effort to someone who I don't believe is doing anything to help themselves, only complaining about "the unfairness of it all", because now they're personally affected by an issue and they expect everyone else to drop what they're doing and change what they're doing, to suit that person who refers to them as insane, and their children are massive dorks, and they're all hypocrites anyway.

Like I asked earlier - would you be willing to go out of your way for a person that thought that little of you?

Only so many times a person can turn the other cheek before they say "now you're just taking the piss, and there are people more needy than you whom I could be helping rather than wasting my time here!".

looksee · 28-12-2015 06:00PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That's not an assumption I made? If you want to suggest that people are irresponsible for having children, then you take responsibility for that assumption, rather than trying to put it on me.

It's hardly controversial to suggest that if people choose to have children, then their children are their responsibility, and their children's welfare is their responsibility, and if they have four years to prepare for sending their children to school, what they do in that time to prepare for that day is also their responsibility.

I will absolutely go out of my way to help people who I see trying to help themselves, but why should I be willing to give that same amount of effort to someone who I don't believe is doing anything to help themselves, only complaining about "the unfairness of it all", because now they're personally affected by an issue and they expect everyone else to drop what they're doing and change what they're doing, to suit that person who refers to them as insane, and their children are massive dorks, and they're all hypocrites anyway.

Like I asked earlier - would you be willing to go out of your way for a person that thought that little of you?

Only so many times a person can turn the other cheek before they say "now you're just taking the piss, and there are people more needy than you whom I could be helping rather than wasting my time here!".

I don't even...are we on the same thread?

The lifestyle choices I'm referring to are people's choice to have children in the first place, in a country where they are more than aware of the education system in Ireland,

What are you saying here if not that people should not have children in a country where they do not agree with the education system? And therefore to have children would be irresponsible.

One eyed Jack · 28-12-2015 06:49PM

looksee wrote: »

I don't even...are we on the same thread?

What are you saying here if not that people should not have children in a country where they do not agree with the education system? And therefore to have children would be irresponsible.

That's an interesting interpretation of what I said, but I haven't at all said that people should not have children in a country where they do not agree with the education system. They make a choice to have children in a country where they are aware that the education system is mainly under the patronage of the RCC, and they ultimately are responsible for making that choice. They are not forced to have children, and they are not forced to put their children in schools who's ethos they do not agree with.

The thing that I find again and again, is that a lot of parents only become interested in objecting to the current setup when it's inconvenient for them personally, and there wasn't a peep out of them before, and there won't be a peep out of them after their children have passed through the education system. It's incredibly rare to meet a person who was campaigning for secular education before they had children, and even more rare to meet a person who still campaigns for secular education after their own children have graduated.

They appear to expect change during their own children's school years, when anyone with any experience in campaigning for a secular education system in Ireland will tell them just how slow things are to change. That has a habit of knocking the fresh enthusiasm out of them fairly quickly when they're faced with the prospect of a mountainous task that again is just too damn inconvenient for them.

eviltwin · 28-12-2015 06:56PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That's an interesting interpretation of what I said, but I haven't at all said that people should not have children in a country where they do not agree with the education system. They make a choice to have children in a country where they are aware that the education system is mainly under the patronage of the RCC, and they ultimately are responsible for making that choice. They are not forced to have children, and they are not forced to put their children in schools who's ethos they do not agree with.

The thing that I find again and again, is that a lot of parents only become interested in objecting to the current setup when it's inconvenient for them personally, and there wasn't a peep out of them before, and there won't be a peep out of them after their children have passed through the education system. It's incredibly rare to meet a person who was campaigning for secular education before they had children, and even more rare to meet a person who still campaigns for secular education after their own children have graduated.

They appear to expect change during their own children's school years, when anyone with any experience in campaigning for a secular education system in Ireland will tell them just how slow things are to change. That has a habit of knocking the fresh enthusiasm out of them fairly quickly when they're faced with the prospect of a mountainous task that again is just too damn inconvenient for them.

That's human nature and its not exclusive to non religious parents. Its natural that people usually won't be concerned with an issue unless it affects them personally otherwise we'd have no room in our heads or our lives for all the causes out there. I think its admirable that people take a stand and follow their own value system rather than go along with status quo just because its the done thing or easier.

Back to the OP's point I have always tried to raise my kids to accept and respect the many different beliefs out there not just in relation to religion but in relation to all sorts of issues. I'm going though a thing at the moment where my 6 yr old keeps asking if God created various things, I have no idea where he got it from, he's not in a religious school and has no exposure to anything religious. Its kind of thrown me a bit because I wasn't expecting it. All I can do is say I don't believe God made things, explain where I think they came from and let him form his own conclusions. I'm okay with the idea of him believing in God if he comes to that conclusion himself. I'm not okay with him believing in God because someone told him to.

MrPudding · 29-12-2015 02:46PM

MikeSD wrote: »

I'd rather not spend ages reading pages of a thread.

But reading the thread would dramatically reduce the chances of you asking the same stupid fcuking question that has been asked and answered repeatedly, and might even help you not look like an idiot. Just sayin'.

MrP

frostyjacks · 29-12-2015 03:01PM

What is the actual issue with a child exercising his/her own free will and embracing a faith? Surely if you have a problem with that then you're no better the priests and nuns you're so quick to rail against.

Hotblack Desiato · 29-12-2015 06:19PM

frostyjacks wrote: »

What is the actual issue with a child exercising his/her own free will and embracing a faith? Surely if you have a problem with that then you're no better the priests and nuns you're so quick to rail against.

Being indoctrinated in school is the opposite of free will.

I would imagine many atheist parents such as myself would be somewhat dismayed if our (adult) children turned to religion, but it's their choice.

I would NOT be happy however if my minor child had their head turned by a proselytiser, whether within the school or elsewhere.

lazygal · 29-12-2015 07:05PM

frostyjacks wrote: »

What is the actual issue with a child exercising his/her own free will and embracing a faith? Surely if you have a problem with that then you're no better the priests and nuns you're so quick to rail against.

Would that happen to be the faith taught in the school the child attends?

MrPudding · 29-12-2015 08:38PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Being indoctrinated in school is the opposite of free will.

I would imagine many atheist parents such as myself would be somewhat dismayed if our (adult) children turned to religion, but it's their choice.

I would NOT be happy however if my minor child had their head turned by a proselytiser, whether within the school or elsewhere.

Personally I would feel like a failure as a parent if one of my adult children turned to religion. To me it would be an indication that I raised them with something missing, something that allowed a charlatan to get a grip on them.

MrP

frostyjacks · 29-12-2015 08:38PM

lazygal wrote: »

Would that happen to be the faith taught in the school the child attends?

Any faith. If that's what they're interested in, then parents should respect that. To do otherwise would be to fail them.

MrPudding · 29-12-2015 08:40PM

frostyjacks wrote: »

What is the actual issue with a child exercising his/her own free will and embracing a faith? Surely if you have a problem with that then you're no better the priests and nuns you're so quick to rail against.

And how much free will, exactly, do you think a child can exercise against someone they are told to obey and believe? Seriously, do you actually believe half the sh1t you post or are you just having a laugh.

MrP

frostyjacks · 29-12-2015 08:58PM

MrPudding wrote: »

And how much free will, exactly, do you think a child can exercise against someone they are told to obey and believe? Seriously, do you actually believe half the sh1t you post or are you just having a laugh.

MrP

The child isn't participating in the class; they are taking an interest of their own volition. You think it's **** to respect your own child's beliefs? You're the one having a laugh there, old chap.

Hotblack Desiato · 29-12-2015 09:34PM

frostyjacks wrote: »

Any faith. If that's what they're interested in, then parents should respect that. To do otherwise would be to fail them.

If my underage children become interested in drugs, porn or alcohol do I have to respect that?

I see religion as just as potentially damaging.

MrPudding · 29-12-2015 10:48PM

frostyjacks wrote: »

The child isn't participating in the class; they are taking an interest of their own volition. You think it's **** to respect your own child's beliefs? You're the one having a laugh there, old chap.

A child of that age does not take an interest of their own volition. I won't respect beliefs that I think are dangerous, nor will I respect beliefs that I think are simply pushed on them by others.

When I am talking to my children about my beliefs I am very careful not to push them onto them. I would prefer if they had the same beliefs as me, but I don't want them to believe them simply because I do. I want them to believe them because they actually think they are true.

This is the reason they need religion in schools. Adults are much less likely to fall for the bull. That is all I try to do with my children. Get them to question it, and not believe simply because someone tells them to.

Beliefs, in and of themselves, are not necessarily worthy of respect. Should we respect the belief that gay men should be thrown of building? Should we respect a belief that someone holds without thought? If a child is, effectively, brainwashed into believing some religious bull why the hell is they worthy of respect? I won't respect something simply because it is one of my children that believes it. Why does that fact my child holds a belief make that worthy of respect?

MrP

frostyjacks · 30-12-2015 12:56AM

How do we expect society to function if people only respect those of a similar ilk? It can't. There has to be respect, tolerance and understanding. This is precisely what is taught in religious classes. I'm surprised so many people feel threatened by it.

Kenny Bania · 30-12-2015 01:05AM

frostyjacks wrote: »

How do we expect society to function if people only respect those of a similar ilk? It can't. There has to be respect, tolerance and understanding. This is precisely what is taught in religious classes. I'm surprised so many people feel threatened by it.

Religion teaches tolerance? Of homosexuals? Are you delusional?

frostyjacks · 30-12-2015 01:21AM

Kenny Bania wrote: »

Religion teaches tolerance? Of homosexuals? Are you delusional?

It's not the 1950s anymore. Believe it or not, churches are accepting of homosexuals.

The catechism states homosexual persons "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity", and "every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided".

Perhaps you are the one suffering from delusions.

Kenny Bania · 30-12-2015 01:22AM

frostyjacks wrote: »

It's not the 1950s anymore. Believe it or not, churches are accepting of homosexuals.

The catechism states homosexual persons "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity", and "every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided".

Perhaps you are the one suffering from delusions.

Perhaps you missed the recent referendum on gay marriage.

Pherekydes · 30-12-2015 01:58AM

frostyjacks wrote: »

This is precisely what is taught in religious classes. I'm surprised so many people feel threatened by it.

You're having a larf. I was taught that non-catholics were going to hell. Even good ones.

Hotblack Desiato · 30-12-2015 02:00AM

frostyjacks wrote: »

There has to be respect, tolerance and understanding. This is precisely what is taught in religious classes. I'm surprised so many people feel threatened by it.

Ah c'mon, you're just taking the absolute piss now.

Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor: atheists are "not fully human"

Hotblack Desiato · 30-12-2015 02:08AM

frostyjacks wrote: »

It's not the 1950s anymore. Believe it or not, churches are accepting of homosexuals.

The catechism states homosexual persons "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity", and "every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided".

Perhaps you are the one suffering from delusions.

As long as they never have sex ever, because homosexual attraction is "intrinsically disordered."

It's not quite as accepting as that bus company that put Rosa Parks in the back seat.

That racist bus company. But church leaders at the time said it was OK.

frostyjacks · 30-12-2015 09:00AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Ah c'mon, you're just taking the absolute piss now.

Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor: atheists are "not fully human"

Well, he's right. If someone doesn't have faith in their life, they're missing something; they are not the full article. He's not saying they're lesser or inferior, just different.

What to tell kids when they ask?

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