What to tell kids when they ask?

recedite

So are you are now in agreement that a country does not have to have "a secular society" to have a secular education system?
I'm assuming you mean "a predominantly non-religious society" by that phrase.

One eyed Jack

recedite wrote: »

So are you are now in agreement that a country does not have to have "a secular society" to have a secular education system?
I'm assuming you mean "a predominantly non-religious society" by that phrase.

No, I mean a society where religion has no influence in matters of the State. A predominantly religious society can still be a secular society - they keep their religion to themselves, and the State does not interfere in how religion manifests itself among it's citizens who are religious.

In order for Ireland to have a secular education system, it would require that Irish society is able to separate religion from matters of the State. I don't think we're anywhere near that point in society yet, as it appears that the vast majority of people don't particularly care either way about religious interference in State matters.

I think we need another few decades of multiculturalism before the State makes moves towards removing religion from matters of the State tbh. There's currently no incentive for politicians as Irish society stands at the moment where 84% of the population identify in the census as being Roman Catholic.

No matter what way anyone tries to dismiss or play down that figure with their own personal anecdotes and claims about mass attendance, it's still not going to change how people choose to identify themselves, for themselves.

Help!!!!

OP what would you do if your child comes home & says they want to go to church every Sunday? Would you let them?
You are willing to send your child to a religious school but you refuse to let them experience all parts of the school due to your own beliefs. Do you not see the irony in that you don't want anybody to push their beliefs on you but you are more willing to push your beliefs on your child.
You can be an Atheist but you also have to let your child make their own mind up
I am not religious but my parents are, they understand I will not go to church but I will also not disrespect their beliefs

One eyed Jack

Help!!!! wrote: »

OP what would you do if your child comes home & says they want to go to church every Sunday? Would you let them?
You are willing to send your child to a religious school but you refuse to let them experience all parts of the school due to your own beliefs. Do you not see the irony in that you don't want anybody to push their beliefs on you but you are more willing to push your beliefs on your child.
You can be an Atheist but you also have to let your child make their own mind up
I am not religious but my parents are, they understand I will not go to church but I will also not disrespect their beliefs

That's not really irony though, that's the whole point of being a parent to a child, is that we guide our children. It often involves trade-offs and sacrifices for what we believe are in our children's best interests. It doesn't mean that we should allow ourselves to be dictated to by other people as to what they believe is in our children's best interests.

In fairness to them, the OP also acknowledged that they don't want their child interfering in the beliefs that other parents choose to instill in their children, and that is to be commended IMO.

looksee

Help!!!! wrote: »

OP what would you do if your child comes home & says they want to go to church every Sunday? Would you let them?
You are willing to send your child to a religious school but you refuse to let them experience all parts of the school due to your own beliefs. Do you not see the irony in that you don't want anybody to push their beliefs on you but you are more willing to push your beliefs on your child.
You can be an Atheist but you also have to let your child make their own mind up
I am not religious but my parents are, they understand I will not go to church but I will also not disrespect their beliefs

A parent has an obligation to pass on their views to their children - you believe that lying or stealing or cruelty is wrong, you pass on those views to your children. You believe that honesty and love is right, you pass that on. In a country where there is really not a lot of alternative to where parents can send their children to school the school has the opportunity to disseminate ideas that the parent might not agree with, and they might well have to take active steps to dilute those ideas.

However in the real world it might be better to allow the child to go to church and get it out of their system, than 'ban' it and create a sense that it is something special.

Help!!!!

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That's not really irony though, that's the whole point of being a parent to a child, is that we guide our children. It often involves trade-offs and sacrifices for what we believe are in our children's best interests. It doesn't mean that we should allow ourselves to be dictated to by other people as to what they believe is in our children's best interests.

In fairness to them, the OP also acknowledged that they don't want their child interfering in the beliefs that other parents choose to instill in their children, and that is to be commended IMO.

Yes totally agree & fair play to the OP. I just think that sometimes you have to let the child experience something & then let them make up their own mind.

aaakev

My kids know my thoughts on it and have been told they are free to believe what they want to believe. One on communion class and one in confirmation this year and both making it. They both seem to be just going woth the flow, my 8byear old has a very curious mind and loves science and evolution, would watch David Attenborough documentories all day so im not a bit concerned at all!

At the end of the day i was brought up in a Catholic school and i turned out to be a firm atheist

Tasden

Help!!!! wrote: »

OP what would you do if your child comes home & says they want to go to church every Sunday? Would you let them?
You are willing to send your child to a religious school but you refuse to let them experience all parts of the school due to your own beliefs. Do you not see the irony in that you don't want anybody to push their beliefs on you but you are more willing to push your beliefs on your child.
You can be an Atheist but you also have to let your child make their own mind up
I am not religious but my parents are, they understand I will not go to church but I will also not disrespect their beliefs

Parents are able to be objective and explain atheism to their children without forcing their own (lack of) beliefs on the child.
I'm atheist, my child isn't participating in the religious sacraments, although she partakes in religious education and attends church, this was her decision not mine and i fully respect it. I will allow her to be baptised and confirmed when she is old enough to fully understand and explain why she is doing so. She knows my opinion on religion and I respect hers. Works perfectly fine.

Help!!!!

Tasden wrote: »

Parents are able to be objective and explain atheism to their children without forcing their own (lack of) beliefs on the child.
I'm atheist, my child isn't participating in the religious sacraments, although she partakes in religious education and attends church, this was her decision not mine and i fully respect it. I will allow her to be baptised and confirmed when she is old enough to fully understand and explain why she is doing so. She knows my opinion on religion and I respect hers. Works perfectly fine.

Unfortunately this is not always the case, whether the parents being religious, atheist or whatever else. Its great that you let your child choose their own path

Kenny Bania

Help!!!! wrote: »

OP what would you do if your child comes home & says they want to go to church every Sunday? Would you let them?

I can't imagine any kid wanting to voluntarily go to mass unless they're a major dork. But no - I wouldn't let her be part a horrible cult that's riddled with systematic abuse, hides paedophiles, abuses unmarried mothers, buries babies in mass graves, hates gays, hates women, endorses slavery, denies contraception, and preaches against materialism whilst wearing Versace shoes & living in a palace full of gold. Not to mention an organisation that lies about the origin of our species and at it's very core is fundamentally full of dumb ideas like virgins being able to have babies & people rising from the dead.

What sane parent would allow any of that? None of those beliefs are to be "respected". With my dying breath, I'll protect my kids from that organisation.

One eyed Jack

Kenny Bania wrote: »

I can't imagine any kid wanting to voluntarily go to mass unless they're a major dork. But no - I wouldn't let her be part a horrible cult that's riddled with systematic abuse, hides paedophiles, abuses unmarried mothers, buries babies in mass graves, hates gays, hates women, endorses slavery, denies contraception, and preaches against materialism whilst wearing Versace shoes & living in a palace full of gold. Not to mention an organisation that lies about the origin of our species and at it's very core is fundamentally full of dumb ideas like virgins being able to have babies & people rising from the dead.

What sane parent would allow any of that? None of those beliefs are to be "respected". With my dying breath, I'll protect my kids from that organisation.

In fairness Kenny, that sort of rhetoric rings fairly hollow when you're placing your child in a school with a Catholic ethos already.

Shrap

One eyed Jack wrote: »

In fairness Kenny, that sort of rhetoric rings fairly hollow when you're placing your child in a school with a Catholic ethos.

Jack, kids have to be educated one way or another. Have a bit of heart for those of us who can't logistically send our kids to any school but a religious ethos one, whether we like it or not.

Btw, that sort of rhetoric wouldn't be at all necessary and would be completely devoid of meaning if parents the likes of us had a reasonable choice. Think on it. Nobody would have to be all "over my dead body" if the threat wasn't there in the first place.....

One eyed Jack

Shrap wrote: »

Jack, kids have to be educated one way or another. Have a bit of heart for those of us who can't logistically send our kids to any school but a religious ethos one, whether we like it or not.

Oh absolutely, I can completely empathise with parents who do not identify as Roman Catholic who have to send their children to RC ethos schools in order for their children to be educated. It's real rock and a hard place stuff. I get it, like I said earlier - parents make trade-offs and sacrifices for what they believe is in the best interests of their children all the time. I wouldn't judge anyone for that.

That's why I didn't bother addressing some of the facepalm inducing rhetoric in the post I quoted, nor calling children dorks nor any of the rest of it, because that attitude isn't much different to the intolerant attitude it's describing.

I personally wouldn't want my child picking up that attitude either, by osmosis or otherwise, tbh.

haveringchick

Kenny Bania wrote: »

I can't imagine any kid wanting to voluntarily go to mass unless they're a major dork. But no - I wouldn't let her be part a horrible cult that's riddled with systematic abuse, hides paedophiles, abuses unmarried mothers, buries babies in mass graves, hates gays, hates women, endorses slavery, denies contraception, and preaches against materialism whilst wearing Versace shoes & living in a palace full of gold. Not to mention an organisation that lies about the origin of our species and at it's very core is fundamentally full of dumb ideas like virgins being able to have babies & people rising from the dead.

What sane parent would allow any of that? None of those beliefs are to be "respected". With my dying breath, I'll protect my kids from that organisation.

But you've sent your child to a Catholic school! Good Lord! (Pardon the pun)
Also, did you actually just use the word dork in a sentence about a child?

TheQuietFella

Kenny Bania wrote: »

No, because it's a bit of fun for a few years & an exciting time for a kid. They make no religious connection to it. A guy called Santa just comes & brings toys to good boys & girls because he's nice. It's harmless. Unlike systematic & compulsory indoctrination they receive in national schools for 14 years.

But it's all lies like I assume the argument regarding religion isn't it?

Or are you just picking & choosing parts of Christianity that suits?

If the class teacher stood before the class & said that Santa was not

real how would the parents react to that? Wouldn't the teacher would be

correct in stating the truth without the indoctrination of the children into

the Myth of Christmas?

looksee

TheQuietFella wrote: »

But it's all lies like I assume the argument regarding religion isn't it?

Or are you just picking & choosing parts of Christianity that suits?

If the class teacher stood before the class & said that Santa was not

real how would the parents react to that? Wouldn't the teacher would be

correct in stating the truth without the indoctrination of the children into

the Myth of Christmas?

I am not quite following that, but I would point out that there is no connection between Santa and Christianity (apart from the very tenuous St Nicholas link, which most children would not be aware of).

Help!!!!

Kenny Bania wrote: »

I can't imagine any kid wanting to voluntarily go to mass unless they're a major dork. But no - I wouldn't let her be part a horrible cult that's riddled with systematic abuse, hides paedophiles, abuses unmarried mothers, buries babies in mass graves, hates gays, hates women, endorses slavery, denies contraception, and preaches against materialism whilst wearing Versace shoes & living in a palace full of gold. Not to mention an organisation that lies about the origin of our species and at it's very core is fundamentally full of dumb ideas like virgins being able to have babies & people rising from the dead.

What sane parent would allow any of that? None of those beliefs are to be "respected". With my dying breath, I'll protect my kids from that organisation.

Or one that hates people of faith, who expects their children to follow their father/mother??
It takes many different people to make up the world

Kenny Bania

TheQuietFella wrote: »

But it's all lies like I assume the argument regarding religion isn't it?

Or are you just picking & choosing parts of Christianity that suits?

If the class teacher stood before the class & said that Santa was not

real how would the parents react to that? Wouldn't the teacher would be

correct in stating the truth without the indoctrination of the children into

the Myth of Christmas?

I don't follow your logic, but I'll indulge you.

Santa is as much a "lie" as showing a kid a magic trick or the classic "got your nose" gag. There is no malice - all 100% harmless & temporary fantasy. Whereas religion is malicious & evil, for all of the reasons I listed on the previous page.

Jack - I can't say I disagree with you for the most part - you make valid points & argue well & respectfully (more respectfully than I do). But I didn't want to get into this long-winded circular discussion - my original post asked a simple question, which was answered. However, I have no choice of schools in my area or even surrounding areas - so saying "but your sent your kid to a catholic school" is pointless, when the logistics of everyday life like having to work and travel & pay bills & a mortgage dictate how far you can practically travel to a school drop-off & pickup, and still get into a job on time. It's a silly argument - if I had the choice of many non-denominational schools in my area, then your point might hold water - but I don't. I did what I could by politely opting her out of religion class, and the school obliged - the problem is with the system IMO, and hypocrites who go to mass just as much as me (i.e. nil) not opting their kids out and also marking themselves as RC on census forms.

And as far as my "rhetoric" on the RC church on the previous page, feel free to correct where Im wrong in any instance. It's not a discussion I'm necessarily looking for, but I only stated facts.

Kenny Bania

Help!!!! wrote: »

Or one that hates people of faith, who expects their children to follow their father/mother??
It takes many different people to make up the world

Who said I hate people of faith? You made that up, it seems, because I certainly didn't say it. I hate religion & the pushers of it. A good person is a good person regardless - I hate the cult itself & what it teaches & what it stands for.

looksee

Help!!!! wrote: »

Or one that hates people of faith, who expects their children to follow their father/mother??
It takes many different people to make up the world

Once more, with feeling.

Atheists do not, as a general rule, hate people of faith, or indeed anyone. They may hate the organisations that administer/supervise the faith, they may feel strongly about some of the people who do the administering and supervising, but they do not hate the church goers. It is quite possible to believe people are mistaken without hating them.

Shrap

Help!!!! wrote: »

Or one that hates people of faith, who expects their children to follow their father/mother??

The only thing I taught my children to believe, is that their beliefs will be thoroughly questioned in my house. If they turn up to me telling me that the Spaghetti monster/Pineapple god is their go-to deity of choice, I will want to know why. I will want to see proof. I will want to see logical thinking. I will also never turn them away if they believe something that I find profoundly ridiculous, but so far, so good and I haven't had much to argue with them about.

I don't think atheism means what you think it means, tbh.

Edit: and ditto on what Looksee just said. There is nothing about faith that makes it hateful, nor is there anyone I hate for their beliefs alone. Their actions, yes. And I hate some beliefs. But I don't hate people of faith. You're doing us wrong mate.

TheQuietFella

looksee wrote: »

I am not quite following that, but I would point out that there is no connection between Santa and Christianity (apart from the very tenuous St Nicholas link, which most children would not be aware of).

But there is a connection between Christianity and Santa!

I don't think there are too many other faiths that have absorbed him into

their religious practices and customs as we have?

He now is more important than Christ, like the Cadbury's egg at Easter!

How many Christmas cards are sent with an image of Santa?

There are probably more images of Santa on display then that of Christ over

the festive season through various forms of advertising!

My 'Kellogg's Cornflakes Box' even has an image of a bearded man on

it and it isn't Jesus Christ!

Tasden

Shrap wrote: »

The only thing I taught my children to believe, is that their beliefs will be thoroughly questioned in my house. If they turn up to me telling me that the Spaghetti monster/Pineapple god is their go-to deity of choice, I will want to know why. I will want to see proof. I will want to see logical thinking. I will also never turn them away if they believe something that I find profoundly ridiculous, but so far, so good and I haven't had much to argue with them about.

I don't think atheism means what you think it means, tbh.

Is a belief not just that though? A belief. There is no proof so it seems a little unfair imo to expect proof from them. Their reasoning/logic/whatever else, sure, but proof?

Shrap

Tasden wrote: »

Is a belief not just that though? A belief. There is no proof so it seems a little unfair imo to expect proof from them. Their reasoning/logic/whatever else, sure, but proof?

The basis for my atheism is that there is no reason to have faith in something that isn't provable. I have told my kids that this is my logic. Occasionally we agree to differ, and I say that I would have trouble getting past that and agreeing with a belief without evidence.

And no. I believe gravity exists, because there is evidence of gravity. Not all beliefs require faith. It's having faith in the absence of evidence that I have difficulty with, not that I would deny anyone their right to believe whatever the fcuk they like. But in my house, this will be questioned. Fair enough?

looksee

Maybe it's my imagination, or should I just go and get some sleep, but this discussion seems to have turned into a series of somewhat garbled circular arguments.

Shrap

looksee wrote: »

Maybe it's my imagination, or should I just go and get some sleep, but this discussion seems to have turned into a series of somewhat garbled circular arguments.

I guess that's what happens on a discussion forum when an intrinsically wrong notion pops up, ie. that an atheist is

one that hates people of faith, who expects their children to follow their father/mother

It's an instant derailer.

Tasden

Shrap wrote: »

The basis for my atheism is that there is no reason to have faith in something that isn't provable. I have told my kids that this is my logic. Occasionally we agree to differ, and I say that I would have trouble getting past that and agreeing with a belief without evidence.

And no. I believe gravity exists, because there is evidence of gravity. Not all beliefs require faith. It's having faith in the absence of evidence that I have difficulty with, not that I would deny anyone their right to believe whatever the fcuk they like. But in my house, this will be questioned. Fair enough?

Well yeah, I would question why my child would believe and would debate/argue points etc. but if she did believe (which she currently does) I wouldn't expect proof, when I know there is none, hence my own lack of belief.

Shrap

Tasden wrote: »

Well yeah, I would question why my child would believe and would debate/argue points etc. but if she did believe (which she currently does) I wouldn't expect proof, when I know there is none, hence my own lack of belief.

Well, I see what you're saying. I suppose the difference between what I meant and what you took me up to mean is that I require proof in order to believe in something and they know that is the case, not that I require them to give me proof for what they believe in. I may have worded it wrong in the first place

Still, like I said, they have accepted this as a logical way to think on things so thus far we've had little disagreement!

TheQuietFella

looksee wrote: »

I am not quite following that, but I would point out that there is no connection between Santa and Christianity (apart from the very tenuous St Nicholas link, which most children would not be aware of).

Kenny Bania wrote: »

I don't follow your logic, but I'll indulge you.

Santa is as much a "lie" as showing a kid a magic trick or the classic "got your nose" gag. There is no malice - all 100% harmless & temporary fantasy. Whereas religion is malicious & evil, for all of the reasons I listed on the previous page.

'You'll indulge me' Well aren't I blessed!

Religion is like all things in life, it isn't perfect and too many crooks

oops... cooks have spoiled the broth but I believe in Jesus Christ.

Religion is not malice or evil! There is quite an amount of good in this world

being done by many a faith and to tar them all with one sweep of a brush

is just not right.

Tasden

Shrap wrote: »

Well, I see what you're saying. I suppose the difference between what I meant and what you took me up to mean is that I require proof in order to believe in something and they know that is the case, not that I require them to give me proof for what they believe in. I may have worded it wrong in the first place

Still, like I said, they have accepted this as a logical way to think on things so thus far we've had little disagreement!

Oh right! That's grand so, just thought it was unfair to expect it of the kids like