What makes successful Irish cities and towns?

Dughorm · 28-12-2015 02:08PM #1

So outside of Dublin, some cities and towns have been rapidly increasing in population the last 40 years while others haven't as much. Here are some figures from some of the largest cities and towns. What makes some cities more attractive to live in than others?

Why have people been packing out Galway with a staggering 157% increase in population in 40 years? Why are people leaving Cork city centre to move out to the suburbs? What does that say about urban life in Cork or in cities in Ireland in general?

City/Town|1971|2011|% Change
Cork|134430|118912|-12%
Limerick|57161|56779|-0.1%
Waterford|33676|46747|+39%
Galway|29375|75529|+157%
Drogheda|20095|38578|+92%
Kilkenny|13306|24423|+84%

I've added a poll to show some factors for what makes an Irish city or town successful - which do you think is the most important? For me it's IDA jobs/multinationals located in the area...

tomwaterford · 28-12-2015 02:10PM

Is it because cork is constantly flooding??

As for Waterford/Limerick I do know that these cities have as nearly many in its hinterland as in the city themselves and the city boundaries are well due an update

Faith+1 · 28-12-2015 02:16PM

Surprised at Cork Cities decrease?

Dughorm · 28-12-2015 02:23PM

Here is the same table, showing the suburbs included in 2011 according to CSO

City/Town|1971|2011 with suburbs|% Change
Cork|134430|198582|+48%
Limerick|57161|91454|+60%
Waterford|33676|51519|+53%
Galway|29375|76778|+161%
Drogheda|20095|38578|+92%
Kilkenny|13306|24423|+84%

The percentage increase still shows a marked difference in population growth even when the suburbs are included for 2011 (can't find 1971 figures with suburbs). Galway is still miles in front in population growth with Cork/Waterford at the end.

How did Galway's population boom arise?! Is that why traffic is always dreadful there:D

Atlantic Dawn · 28-12-2015 02:24PM

Politicians maintaining the parish pump usually has most impact.

lanos · 28-12-2015 02:27PM

City/Town|1971|2011|% Change
Cork|134430|118912|-12%
Limerick|57161|56779|-0.1%
Waterford|33676|46747|+39%
Galway|29375|75529|+157%
Drogheda|20095|38578|+92%
Kilkenny|13306|24423|+84%

is success defined by population increase ?
the limerick statistic is interesting in that it is the only city that has a stable population
between 1971 and 2011

is stability not a measure of success ?

The Randy Riverbeast · 28-12-2015 02:27PM

Dughorm wrote: »

Here is the same table, showing the suburbs included in 2011 according to CSO

City/Town|1971|2011 with suburbs|% Change
Cork|134430|198582|+48%
Limerick|57161|91454|+60%
Waterford|33676|51519|+53%
Galway|29375|76778|+161%
Drogheda|20095|38578|+92%
Kilkenny|13306|24423|+84%

The percentage increase still shows a marked difference in population growth even when the suburbs are included for 2011 (can't find 1971 figures with suburbs). Galway is still miles in front in population growth with Cork/Waterford at the end.

How did Galway's population boom arise?! Is that why traffic is always dreadful there:D

It looks like most people are going into the city centre for Galway. Maybe they are trying to avoid driving, I know I am.

Bulbous Salutation · 28-12-2015 02:30PM

Galway is full of refugees escaping the hellholes of North Clare, Roscommon and Mayo.

Dughorm · 28-12-2015 02:31PM

lanos wrote: »

is success defined by population increase ?
the limerick statistic is interesting in that it is the only city that has a stable population
between 1971 and 2011

is stability not a measure of success ?

Good question - in my book a city/town with a growing population in a country with a growing population is a better measure of success than stability.

If Dublin increased in population three-fold but Limerick say stayed the same, in terms of jobs and the number of TDs, Limerick would be worse off and probably stuck with an aging population as the young people would head to Dublin (like they're already doing

)

lisasimpson · 28-12-2015 02:34PM

in relation to cork city.. the official cork city area is quite small a lot of its suburbs are technically cork county which is ridiculous. a large part of douglas area is actually cork county so if the city boundaries were extended the figures would be a lot different .... there are also large areas of cork city itself gone into ruins.. barracks st, Shandon st to name two areas have quite a few derlict buildings.. which there is no need for considering there closeness to the city centre and the university. would have no problem renting rooms in them
another reason for the decline would be the likes of glasheen wilton etc would have older populations where kids have know grown up and left home

28-12-2015 02:40PM

There are not many places to live in Cork City centre. And most houses/flats are fairly crap. (Except mine! It's lovely!)

Not many families would live in Cork city centre anyway. Not enough space. Also Cork City centre is tiny. Many new houses have been built in commuter towns outside the city in the past few years. Makes total sense to me.

dotsman · 28-12-2015 02:41PM

My guess is that, when a city is small, people moving to that city move to the center or close top it. However, as the city expands, the city center becomes more retail/office and the bulk of the population reside in suburbs/satellite town (in Ireland, our planners live by the mantra "build out, not up"). From the tables above, it certainly would back up that theory.

I do know that, in Cork's case, the city boundaries are ridiculous small. Basically, only a little dot right bang in the middle is considered the city and the rest is the "county". Not sure if it is just urban legend, but have heard it from several different people, that the county council refuse to redraw the boundaries, and allow the city grow, as they make so much money from the rates collected from shops/offices that are now officially in the county. And this is a big part of the reason why there is so much controversy at the moment in terms of merging both city and county council into one.

AppleBottle · 28-12-2015 02:50PM

While I can't speak for a lot of those places, I live close to Drogheda. I would imagine for Drogheda it would have something to do with transport links and being on the commuter belt/Belfast line so it's easy enough to get into Dublin for people. It would be cheaper to rent further from Dublin too.

Balmed Out · 28-12-2015 02:56PM

Galway and Waterford are both far smaller then Cork but have a larger urban area so the statistics are thrown by the fact that so much of what people commonly refer to as Cork city is in the county. Id presume over this time span city centres everywhere have had population decreases with more retail and office spaces and less homes particularly family homes.

The Backwards Man · 28-12-2015 02:58PM

Dughorm wrote: »

Good question - in my book a city/town with a growing population in a country with a growing population is a better measure of success than stability.

If Dublin increased in population three-fold but Limerick say stayed the same, in terms of jobs and the number of TDs, Limerick would be worse off and probably stuck with an aging population as the young people would head to Dublin (like they're already doing )

In that case, San'a in Yemen, Niamey in Niger and Chittagong in Bangladesh are all success stories?

lisasimpson · 28-12-2015 02:59PM

yes the cork city boundaries saga is dragging out for ages now that much is true.. whatever about including the like of ballincollig as city parts of togher, douglas, frankfield grange areas should be counted city at this stage even rochestown....
even though cork is small there is a potential to have more residential in it if one used their imagination...it might not suit families fair enough there is a large rental market for young people renting. There was lovely work done over by Cornmarket St, was in one of the apartments there once they are nice. One example is Barrack St and with office developments taking place in the centre, barrack street is within walking distance...also the upper floors of some retail building..ie like waterstone etc are the top floors of these buildings even used? using these as apartments would free up family houses in the suburbs otherwise rented by groups of friends in their 20s/30s
Then you have a development in Blackrock (again walking distance of the centre and on bus route to town and mahon), houses that were built towards the end of the boom are just left sitting there. developer/nama whoever has there site should be made sell these and there is still some of the site un-developed too.
I'm sure there are other parts of the city that I'm not familiar with in the same both

Dughorm · 28-12-2015 03:11PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

In that case, San'a in Yemen, Niamey in Niger and Chittagong in Bangladesh are all success stories?

Perhaps the Chittagongians will be queueing up with the refugees from North Clare and Roscommon to move to Galway too? :pac:

Halloween Jack · 28-12-2015 03:11PM

Dughorm wrote: »

So outside of Dublin, some cities and towns have been rapidly increasing in population the last 40 years while others haven't as much. Here are some figures from some of the largest cities and towns. What makes some cities more attractive to live in than others?

Why have people been packing out Galway with a staggering 157% increase in population in 40 years? Why are people leaving Cork city centre to move out to the suburbs? What does that say about urban life in Cork or in cities in Ireland in general?

City/Town|1971|2011|% Change
Cork|134430|118912|-12%
Limerick|57161|56779|-0.1%
Waterford|33676|46747|+39%
Galway|29375|75529|+157%
Drogheda|20095|38578|+92%
Kilkenny|13306|24423|+84%

I've added a poll to show some factors for what makes an Irish city or town successful - which do you think is the most important? For me it's IDA jobs/multinationals located in the area...

I'm not sure these numbers alone tell you much. The general population of the country has risen from 3m in 1971 to 5m or whatever it is now, so while Limerick looks like it has a stable population, it's probably more accurate to think that it's relative population has declined significantly...

Rightwing · 28-12-2015 03:20PM

Interesting thread.

Limerick got very few IDA jobs during the FF boom years, in fact it's numbers declined with the dell closure. Now, many jobs are coming back into the region. The difference between Willie O Dea and M Noonan. Politics.

Galway and Cork probably have had strong politicians over the years, whereas Waterford hasn't.

Dughorm · 28-12-2015 03:21PM

Balmed Out wrote: »

Galway and Waterford are both far smaller then Cork but have a larger urban area so the statistics are thrown by the fact that so much of what people commonly refer to as Cork city is in the county.

I think there's an element of truth in this, here is a table showing the city area population in 2011 and per square mile. It shows how Cork city has a smaller area than the other regional cities. Strangely, Limerick City (excluding suburbs) has the lowest population per square mile, even smaller than Waterford. Why does Limerick stand out in this regard?

City|2011 City Only|Sq Miles|Pop/Sq Mile
Cork|118912|14.4|8258|
Limerick|56779|19.8|2868|
Waterford|46747|16|2922|
Galway|75529|20|3776|

Balmed Out wrote: »

Id presume over this time span city centres everywhere have had population decreases with more retail and office spaces and less homes particularly family homes.

It surprises me that even when the suburbs are included, some areas have much more growth than others (i.e. Galway) which is city centre driven growth apparently?

Rightwing · 28-12-2015 03:28PM

Dughorm wrote: »

I think there's an element of truth in this, here is a table showing the city area population in 2011 and per square mile. It shows how Cork city has a smaller area than the other regional cities. Strangely, Limerick City (excluding suburbs) has the lowest population per square mile, even smaller than Waterford. Why does Limerick stand out in this regard?

City|2011 City Only|Sq Miles|Pop/Sq Mile
Cork|118912|14.4|8258|
Limerick|56779|19.8|2868|
Waterford|46747|16|2922|
Galway|75529|20|3776|

It surprises me that even when the suburbs are included, some areas have much more growth than others (i.e. Galway) which is city centre driven growth apparently?

A lot of burnt out, thrashed and vacant buildings there.

RobertKK · 28-12-2015 03:34PM

For Kilkenny it is its history and medieval architecture, modern but hasn't lost it's medieval charm which brings in a lot of tourism, and since it is geared up for tourism, festivals and the odd big concert it is a place known for the craic.
Some really beautiful scenery in the areas around Kilkenny city too, as Lonely planet says about Northern Kilkenny, it is 'idyllic for leisurely drives along the back roads' to take a picnic and 'is best enjoyed by simply taking in the scenery'.
I just love the place.

Dughorm · 28-12-2015 03:47PM

RobertKK wrote: »

For Kilkenny it is its history and medieval architecture, modern but hasn't lost it's medieval charm which brings in a lot of tourism, and since it is geared up for tourism, festivals and the odd big concert it is a place known for the craic.

I like Kilkenny and in terms of fun places for me it's up there with Carrick-on-Shannon and Galway but it definitely has a 'cosy' feel to it and I wonder does it have the capacity to expand further?

Despite its growth in the last 40 years, Kilkenny still has less than half the population of Waterford, which is small compared to the likes of Galway or Limerick!

RobertKK · 28-12-2015 04:01PM

Dughorm wrote: »

I like Kilkenny and in terms of fun places for me it's up there with Carrick-on-Shannon and Galway but it definitely has a 'cosy' feel to it and I wonder does it have the capacity to expand further?

Despite its growth in the last 40 years, Kilkenny still has less than half the population of Waterford, which is small compared to the likes of Galway or Limerick!

It has lots of room to expand, but most of the employment is indigenous with the biggest employer being Glanbia. Kilkenny depends on tourism and agriculture, the two biggest areas of employment.

The thing is if Kilkenny keeps expanding at the rate it is, it would be a bigger city than Waterford in the next 100 years.
Waterford have issues with it's expansion, as they want to takeover parts of Kilkenny for their expansion.
Kilkenny has room to expand in all directions.

Dughorm · 28-12-2015 04:14PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The thing is if Kilkenny keeps expanding at the rate it is, it would be a bigger city than Waterford in the next 100 years.
Waterford have issues with it's expansion, as they want to takeover parts of Kilkenny for their expansion.
Kilkenny has room to expand in all directions.

Does this mean Co. Kilkenny would have two cities?
This all sounds similar to the Limerick City expansion into Co. Clare debate a few years ago! We're a great country when it comes to urban planning!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 28-12-2015 04:18PM

Galway is an interesting place to be when you;re young - lively scene, big university and so on. I'd imagine most of the people who have moved theer did so from overseas and got fed up with Dublin.

There's no point having great jobs and infrastructure, if the place is boring and offers nothing to do when people have time off.

road_high · 28-12-2015 05:21PM

The likes of Kilkenny, Galway and others are hugely desirable places to live. Not too big, but excellent facilities in terms of leisure, shopping, lovely ambience and atmosphere. This tends to attract a lot of like minded people to move there. Kilkenny is not too far from Dublin either. I think the opposite when I think of Limerick or Waterford. I would have no desire to ever live or work in either. To me as a young guy they conjure up decline and depression.

road_high · 28-12-2015 05:24PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Galway is an interesting place to be when you;re young - lively scene, big university and so on. I'd imagine most of the people who have moved theer did so from overseas and got fed up with Dublin.

There's no point having great jobs and infrastructure, if the place is boring and offers nothing to do when people have time off.

Galway is class. It offers best of all worlds. Plus you can be out the country in a few minutes to stunning scenery. There's four places I could contemplate living in Ireland - Kilkenny (now), Dublin, cork or Galway.

road_high · 28-12-2015 05:27PM

Faith+1 wrote: »

Surprised at Cork Cities decrease?

Doesn't include the outer suburbs or satellite towns? Cork city is booming, I think it's a great place. Cork people have a great can do attitude and its reflected in their city and county.

road_high · 28-12-2015 05:30PM

Rightwing wrote: »

Interesting thread.

Limerick got very few IDA jobs during the FF boom years, in fact it's numbers declined with the dell closure. Now, many jobs are coming back into the region. The difference between Willie O Dea and M Noonan. Politics.

Galway and Cork probably have had strong politicians over the years, whereas Waterford hasn't.

Haven't been down in limerick for a while but I believe it's after picking up a lot after the recession?

lisasimpson · 28-12-2015 05:32PM

one thing I like about Kilkenny and galway you rarely hear about trouble on nights out in them. they are small and compact good choice of things to do in your down time... I think for any town and city its thing to do in the evening to attract young people to live in them a good choice of restaurants and coffee shops (not just a load of indian and chinesse yes thurles I'm looking at you), cinemas, gyms, sport clubs (not just gaa), arts centre to attract comedy gigs local musicals
Cork is getting there, if the events centre to have gigs year around that will be a good step

What makes successful Irish cities and towns?

Which is the most important for successful Irish cities/towns? 71 votes

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