Pregnant and moving to Ireland to start a new job. Should I tell?

user.name · 14-12-2015 02:40AM

As far as I know an employer legally cannot dismiss your wife on the grounds that she is pregnant that will amount to discrimination. It doesn't matter if she is on probation or not. Keeping in mind, they of course can end her contract if they feel that she is not a fit for the company once it does not involve her pregnancy.
When she does go on maternity leave the probationary period would be on pause and continues on until she comes back. As for regards to keeping her job when she comes back, they cannot fire her for being on maternity leave, unless for example for economic reasons in which the employer has to make cuts to jobs in the company. Discrimination in terms of pregnancy in the workplace has a lot of protection under EU and Irish law.
Generally I would tell when she gets to the three month mark, especially for health and safety reasons.

One eyed Jack · 14-12-2015 03:16AM

armabelle wrote: »

If she goes on leave for three months and works for twenty years in the company thereafter and excels at her job then what difference does it make. I think companies look at the big picture as well.

I think it's you're not looking at the bigger picture here OP. You can't assume your wife will work for the company for the next 20 years, or that she will excel at her job when she hasn't even started yet. You're making all sorts of positive presumptions on everyone else's behalf, and completely ignoring the meaning of the word 'probation'.

The company may decide at the end of her probationary period that your wife hasn't excelled at her job, that your wife may not be the candidate they were looking for after all, and may have no problem with letting your wife go at the end of her probationary period and hiring someone else.

At least if your wife shows herself to be honest, trustworthy, and up-front with her employer, that will stand to her more in the long term as an employee, than if her employers feel she is untrustworthy.

Padster90s · 14-12-2015 04:04AM

I think she should tell HR before she starts. Its the honest and decent thing to do. If she tells them after working there a few weeks I think there is a very good chance the next question she'll be asked it how far gone you are...Its what I'd ask! It doesn't look good on your wife's part, you know. The boss/manager might think she isn't the most honest person, it could leave a distrust there.

Glinda · 15-12-2015 07:21PM

I'm going to go against the majority here and say that I don't think it's advisable to tell the company before your wife has actually taken up the position.

You can probably tell from some of the posts that there are a considerable number of people who take a very dim view of women taking maternity leave (although few will come directly out and say that). It would be foolish to assume that this view isn't reflected in the management of the company your wife is joining, at least to some extent.

There is a reason why the protections afforded to women around pregnancy and work are so strong in law, and that is precisely because without this legal protection a significant number of employers would choose not to accommodate women who need to take time off to have children, and might even choose not to employ them at all. Not everyone thinks this way of course, but it only takes a bit of bad luck and an encounter with the wrong person and you can find yourself off the hiring list for any number of spurious reasons (of course if they have any sense they will not mention the pregnancy, but will manufacture another reason).

It's all very well to say you should be honest and upfront from the beginning, fully trusting the employer to do the right and honourable thing. To me that is a little naive. I would keep my counsel until there is a practical reason to inform the employer. You might find that for health and safety reasons, it is important that they know straight away. If not, then your reproductive life is not really their business until they need to know.

Best of luck with relocation, and with the pregnancy!

_Brian · 15-12-2015 08:00PM

Tell the truth, its near always the way forward..
If they really want rid then they can knock her off for some spurious reason during her probation. One work mistake, late morning or a number of other issues and she's fair game on genuine reasons..

If she comes clean they can't not start her because of the pregnancy, its documented and least any late or absence due to morning sickness etc can't be thrown against her during probation..

Its always a gamble but I think there is more to be lost by not telling, telling creates a bit of cover with the pregnancy.

armabelle · 17-12-2015 10:09AM

Glinda wrote: »

I'm going to go against the majority here and say that I don't think it's advisable to tell the company before your wife has actually taken up the position.

You can probably tell from some of the posts that there are a considerable number of people who take a very dim view of women taking maternity leave (although few will come directly out and say that). It would be foolish to assume that this view isn't reflected in the management of the company your wife is joining, at least to some extent.

There is a reason why the protections afforded to women around pregnancy and work are so strong in law, and that is precisely because without this legal protection a significant number of employers would choose not to accommodate women who need to take time off to have children, and might even choose not to employ them at all. Not everyone thinks this way of course, but it only takes a bit of bad luck and an encounter with the wrong person and you can find yourself off the hiring list for any number of spurious reasons (of course if they have any sense they will not mention the pregnancy, but will manufacture another reason).

It's all very well to say you should be honest and upfront from the beginning, fully trusting the employer to do the right and honourable thing. To me that is a little naive. I would keep my counsel until there is a practical reason to inform the employer. You might find that for health and safety reasons, it is important that they know straight away. If not, then your reproductive life is not really their business until they need to know.

Best of luck with relocation, and with the pregnancy!

Quite possibly the best possible reply yet. Thank you!

bucketybuck · 17-12-2015 10:39AM

armabelle wrote: »

Since the company does not pay her maternity leave (it seems), they don't really lose out in that way but they will lose having her at work which may or may not be a problem for them

May or may not be a problem? Do you think they are hiring somebody just for the hell of it? Of course its a problem if after going to the expense of hiring they still don't have anybody doing the job that needed doing. They are now worse off than they were before, and while pregnancy is a protected class there is no point pretending it isn't a problem for the company.

user.name wrote: »

As far as I know an employer legally cannot dismiss your wife on the grounds that she is pregnant that will amount to discrimination. It doesn't matter if she is on probation or not. Keeping in mind, they of course can end her contract if they feel that she is not a fit for the company once it does not involve her pregnancy.

The company cannot let her go for being pregnant, but being pregnant does not mean they can't let her go.

Its foolish to rely on the fact that pregnancy is a protected class, a switched on manager can easily create a situation where the employee is let go during probation for other reasons, and with whatever paperwork and supporting information is needed to support the decision should it be contested.

The question is whether the company will want to do this or will they be prepared to accommodate the lady. A huge factor in this will be if they feel she is worth accommodating, which they won't do if they think she was dishonest right from the start.

The company is not your wife's enemy, there to be hoodwinked. If she wants to be a part of the company long term I would suggest she act appropriately and part of that is not lying by omission.

armabelle wrote: »

Quite possibly the best possible reply yet. Thank you!

Ah, the old classic, the best replies are the ones that tell me what I wanted to hear! :pac:

armabelle · 17-12-2015 12:25PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

May or may not be a problem? Do you think they are hiring somebody just for the hell of it? Of course its a problem if after going to the expense of hiring they still don't have anybody doing the job that needed doing. They are now worse off than they were before, and while pregnancy is a protected class there is no point pretending it isn't a problem for the company.

The company cannot let her go for being pregnant, but being pregnant does not mean they can't let her go.

Its foolish to rely on the fact that pregnancy is a protected class, a switched on manager can easily create a situation where the employee is let go during probation for other reasons, and with whatever paperwork and supporting information is needed to support the decision should it be contested.

The question is whether the company will want to do this or will they be prepared to accommodate the lady. A huge factor in this will be if they feel she is worth accommodating, which they won't do if they think she was dishonest right from the start.

The company is not your wife's enemy, there to be hoodwinked. If she wants to be a part of the company long term I would suggest she act appropriately and part of that is not lying by omission.

Ah, the old classic, the best replies are the ones that tell me what I wanted to hear! :pac:

Not what I want to hear but what seems reasonable to me. I usually only ask for advice so I can discard it and do what I/we think is right anyway. It must be a psychological flaw of mine

Glinda · 17-12-2015 03:09PM

It is quite a leap to say that not telling the employer immediately is deceiving them. They are not entitled to make decisions about the employee as a result of this information (other than health and safety, which I already mentioned), so why do they need it?
Unless the information is genuinely needed immediately for practical reasons, it is perfectly legitimate for the employee to decide to keep it private for a while. The required notice for maternity leave us set out in the legislation. That is the only obligation on the employee (other than h&s).
I am not saying withhold telling them until the last minute, just that there is nothing wrong with waiting until you have an actual reason to discuss the matter with your employer.

davo10 · 17-12-2015 03:22PM

armabelle wrote: »

Quite possibly the best possible reply yet. Thank you!

You finally found someone to agree with you, the "best reply" for you is the one that agrees with you.

Incidentally, no one said they were unhappy about an employee taking maternity leave, the question is whether it is best to tell the employer immediately or later when you have to. Most employers don't mind an employee being pregnant, but many would be disappointed not to be informed as early as possible so that provisions can made. I still stand by my opinion that your partner can be let go during probation while you fail to officially inform them. I guess you'll find out one way or the other soon enough.

armabelle · 17-12-2015 03:41PM

Glinda wrote: »

It is quite a leap to say that not telling the employer immediately is deceiving them. They are not entitled to make decisions about the employee as a result of this information (other than health and safety, which I already mentioned), so why do they need it?
Unless the information is genuinely needed immediately for practical reasons, it is perfectly legitimate for the employee to decide to keep it private for a while. The required notice for maternity leave us set out in the legislation. That is the only obligation on the employee (other than h&s).
I am not saying withhold telling them until the last minute, just that there is nothing wrong with waiting until you have an actual reason to discuss the matter with your employer.

This sounds very sensible, thanks Glinda. And I also agree that it is not deceitful. I wish I had asked for your advice before we lost the other job opportunity two years ago for telling them before receiving an actual contract. We were very naive!

armabelle · 17-12-2015 03:42PM

davo10 wrote: »

You finally found someone to agree with you, the "best reply" for you is the one that agrees with you.

Incidentally, no one said they were unhappy about an employee taking maternity leave, the question is whether it is best to tell the employer immediately or later when you have to. Most employers don't mind an employee being pregnant, but many would be disappointed not to be informed as early as possible so that provisions can made. I still stand by my opinion that your partner can be let go during probation while you fail to officially inform them. I guess you'll find out one way or the other soon enough.

Or they can be let go before even beginning probation as was our case two years ago?

davo10 · 17-12-2015 03:45PM

armabelle wrote: »

This sounds very sensible, thanks Glinda. And I also agree that it is not deceitful. I wish I had asked for your advice before we lost the other job opportunity two years ago for telling them before receiving an actual contract. We were very naive!

You are still naive. The scenario you are concerned about ( loss of job) is still a possibility if she is let go before you officially inform them. You realise that once the contract is signed, from that moment forward they cannot discriminate against her based on pregnancy, but any day between now and the date you tell them, they absolutely can let her go.

ToRamona · 17-12-2015 06:24PM

armabelle wrote: »

Hi everyone. My wife and I are moving to Ireland because she got a job offer and is due to begin in one month. Just recently we found out that she is 9 weeks pregnant and that we are going to have our 2nd baby. As happy as we are about this news we are also concerned about what this means for her job and how her employer may react while discovering this during her probation period which is 6 to 10 months long. Should we say something before we go over or just go and say something only when it is absolutely necessary?

thanks in advance

I think you need to be honest with the employer before the start date otherwise it comes across as dishonest. Im aware of the maternity rules etc. Do you think moving to another country at this time is the right move? Are you looking for work here?

Glinda · 18-12-2015 02:51PM

ToRamona wrote: »

I think you need to be honest with the employer before the start date otherwise it comes across as dishonest.

Why is it dishonest? Do you feel people should always keep their employer informed about their personal life as soon as developments occur? Or is it just pregnant women?

As for most employers "don't mind" women employees being pregnant, that statement kind of illustrates my point - it's really none of their business whether people are pregnant or not, except insofar as they need to make proper arrangements to facilitate them and keep them safe at work.

Sadly, this idea has failed to penetrate for some people, and they still regard a pregnant employee as something to be tolerated at best.

Hence my caution about letting them know before you need to. Dav010, I see your point about how they can't dismiss her for being pregnant once they officially know about it, but in my experience the job may just disappear, or be no longer required, before the start date.

bucketybuck · 18-12-2015 03:29PM

Glinda wrote: »

As for most employers "don't mind" women employees being pregnant, that statement kind of illustrates my point - it's really none of their business whether people are pregnant or not, except insofar as they need to make proper arrangements to facilitate them and keep them safe at work.

Of course its their business, being pregnant fundamentally changes the employees ability to do their job, not least because she won't be there to do it.

Saying an employer doesn't need to know about it is like saying they don't need to know about an employee heading to jail for a few weeks, or a driver losing their license. The employee is paid to do a job, the company needs them to do their job, if something is going to stop them doing their job they need to know about it.

You talk as if being pregnant is like going to a night course, or anything else that has no effect on job performance, which is of course blatantly not correct.

davo10 · 18-12-2015 03:41PM

Glinda wrote: »

Do you feel people should always keep their employer informed about their personal life as soon as developments occur? Or is it just pregnant women?

As for most employers "don't mind" women employees being pregnant, that statement kind of illustrates my point - it's really none of their business whether people are pregnant or not, except insofar as they need to make proper arrangements to facilitate them and keep them safe at work.

Sadly, this idea has failed to penetrate for some people, and they still regard a pregnant employee as something to be tolerated at best.
.

Unfortunately your view point is ill informed. It is very much an employer's business if an employee is pregnant, the employer is required to do a risk assessment for the employee to satisfy H&S regs. To not do so leaves the employee and the baby at risk of injury and the employee at risk of a claim for negligence.

The absence of any employee for any reason can cause disruption and you are quite right, it is at best "tolerated", I do not know of any reason why any employer would be happy for an employee to be absent for an extended period except where the business is doing badly and it suits to have someone off the payroll.

Employers could not care less about your "personal life" but pregnancy brings with it a whole set of particular obligations and precautions which must be arranged and adhered to by both the employee and the employer so that both are protected.

armabelle · 18-12-2015 08:21PM

Glinda wrote: »

Why is it dishonest? Do you feel people should always keep their employer informed about their personal life as soon as developments occur? Or is it just pregnant women?

As for most employers "don't mind" women employees being pregnant, that statement kind of illustrates my point - it's really none of their business whether people are pregnant or not, except insofar as they need to make proper arrangements to facilitate them and keep them safe at work.

Sadly, this idea has failed to penetrate for some people, and they still regard a pregnant employee as something to be tolerated at best.

Hence my caution about letting them know before you need to. Dav010, I see your point about how they can't dismiss her for being pregnant once they officially know about it, but in my experience the job may just disappear, or be no longer required, before the start date.

Exactly! This kind-of happened to us in 2013 for the same company albeit in another country. Luckily it did happen else she may never have gotten this opportunity. Funny how things work out sometimes.

armabelle · 18-12-2015 08:23PM

davo10 wrote: »

Employers could not care less about your "personal life" but pregnancy brings with it a whole set of particular obligations and precautions which must be arranged and adhered to by both the employee and the employer so that both are protected.

So would you tell them right away so long as you had a signed contract? We do have a contract but it is not signed by the company, should it be?

davo10 · 18-12-2015 08:33PM

armabelle wrote: »

So would you tell them right away so long as you had a signed contract? We do have a contract but it is not signed by the company, should it be?

Contract offered is implied, sign it, send it back, get the start date then inform. There is "honesty" and then there is "honest endeavour", it is not dishonest not to inform, but there is courtesy and the "right thing to do". If you can't be up front with your employer, how then can you expect anything more of them.

It's a tough call no doubt but to be honest it won't be an easy situation for the employer either, the best thing for both is to be as forthright as possible, the longer time goes on, the more potential for the employer to feel you were less than forthright by not informing them and even though you may have safe guarded the job, they won't forget.

armabelle · 18-12-2015 08:35PM

davo10 wrote: »

Contract offered is implied, sign it, send it back, get the start date then inform.

Could you explain this please? If the company didn't sign it isn't it just a piece of paper anybody could have typed up? She has signed it and sent it back two weeks ago but she is not sure she should have it signed by them as well...

davo10 · 18-12-2015 08:50PM

armabelle wrote: »

Could you explain this please? If the company didn't sign it isn't it just a piece of paper anybody could have typed up? She has signed it and sent it back two weeks ago but she is not sure she should have it signed by them as well...

They have made an offer of terms, you sign it and send it back. They have agreed to take you on based on the terms of the contract, if you accept, the deal is done. They cannot rescind because your partner is pregnant. If you are unsure, pay an employment lawyer for a one off opinion.

December2012 · 18-12-2015 08:57PM

I would not tell them until she starts. I don't want to be macarbre, and I hope it doesn't happen, but she may miscarry. Given you are worried about losing the job too, and that there are no guarantees in life,maybe it's best to start work, hope the pregnancy continues healthily, and then tell them.

You have to think of the maternal health here, that's the bigger picture.

ToRamona · 18-12-2015 09:00PM

Glinda wrote: »

Why is it dishonest? Do you feel people should always keep their employer informed about their personal life as soon as developments occur? Or is it just pregnant women?

As for most employers "don't mind" women employees being pregnant, that statement kind of illustrates my point - it's really none of their business whether people are pregnant or not, except insofar as they need to make proper arrangements to facilitate them and keep them safe at work.

Sadly, this idea has failed to penetrate for some people, and they still regard a pregnant employee as something to be tolerated at best.

Its common courtesy to inform a new employer if you are pregnant IMO otherwise it can make the working relationship difficult. I dont feel you need tell your employer your personal life unless it has an effect on your work life which pregnancy has in fairness.

Employers have a duty to keep all staff safe at work and not just pregnant ladies or do you think that's just for pregnant ladies?

screamer · 18-12-2015 09:00PM

I am absolutely astounded by the amount of gullibility in some of these replies. OP whether your wife tells the company about her pregnancy or not in a probationary period they CAN fire her. Not for being pregnant but for any other reason of which there are many. They may even terminate her contract because she's just not a fit for the company and there's no way you will be able to prove it has anything to do with her being pregnant. Believe me I've managed in huge multi nationals and there are ways and means. The real and most important question you should be asking yourselves is whether it is worth uprooting your family and moving country when it is so uncertain how your wife's contract of employment will go.........

blondchick · 18-12-2015 09:23PM

I agree with screamer. All this talk about protection for pregnant women actually amounts to nothing! If you are dismissed when pregnant for a flimsy excuse what can you actually do. You can sue the company, they can offer to take you back but would you really want to work for a company who tried to get rid of you? You can sue and cost yourself a huge amount in legal fees and spend years fighting it through the courts. My advice would be for your wife to tell them she is pregnant and see what happens, do you really want to work for a company who is that family unfriendly?

davo10 · 18-12-2015 09:23PM

screamer wrote: »

I am absolutely astounded by the amount of gullibility in some of these replies. OP whether your wife tells the company about her pregnancy or not in a probationary period they CAN fire her. Not for being pregnant but for any other reason of which there are many. They may even terminate her contract because she's just not a fit for the company and there's no way you will be able to prove it has anything to do with her being pregnant. Believe me I've managed in huge multi nationals and there are ways and means. The real and most important question you should be asking yourselves is whether it is worth uprooting your family and moving country when it is so uncertain how your wife's contract of employment will go.........

Sorry but I'm surprised at your gullibility. An employer may dismiss a pregnant employee for a variety of reasons during probation but as soon as they do, the employee will claim it was due to pregnancy. The bar is raised very high for this. All employers know that dismissing a pregnant employee is like handling unstable dynamite, you might get away with it but you have to be very very careful.

davo10 · 18-12-2015 09:26PM

blondchick wrote: »

I agree with screamer. All this talk about protection for pregnant women actually amounts to nothing! If you are dismissed when pregnant for a flimsy excuse what can you actually do. You can sue the company, they can offer to take you back but would you really want to work for a company who tried to get rid of you? You can sue and cost yourself a huge amount in legal fees and spend years fighting it through the courts. My advice would be for your wife to tell them she is pregnant and see what happens, do you really want to work for a company who is that family unfriendly?

The remedy for unfair dismissal is typically equivalent to 2 years remuneration unless the employee was employed on a fixed term contract. Also pregnancy is one of the nine recognised bases on which you can be discriminated against , being s**te at your job is not on that list. "Nothing" you say?

screamer · 18-12-2015 10:06PM

davo10 wrote: »

Sorry but I'm surprised at your gullibility. An employer may dismiss a pregnant employee for a variety of reasons during probation but as soon as they do, the employee will claim it was due to pregnancy. The bar is raised very high for this. All employers know that dismissing a pregnant employee is like handling unstable dynamite, you might get away with it but you have to be very very careful.

You seem to think that a pregnant employee won't be dismissed...... that is gullible, a bloody good HR department is well used to handing "explosive" situations and employees and would be well able to dismiss a pregnant woman on probation because she was no good at her job, not the right fit for the company, whatever, and there is SFA the employee can do about it. Big HR departments run water tight ships, don't think they don't have access to the top legal companies in the country. On probation, pregnant or not, even for the first 12 months into a new job, your employer can terminate your employment and there is very, very little you can do about it, and for someone who has not got enough PRSI stamps built up either to qualify for any kind of social welfare, it's a risk.

Apart from that, from a work point of view, I have seen newer people join and leave on maternity within the first year or so, and if they are not replaced, it puts extra strain on the team that they are working in. If that were the case, I could see co-workers not being so happy about the situation either knowing that they are training you in for you to leave and leave them under pressure yet again. Hiring is a decision not taken lightly, and like someone else said, the company is hiring you to do a job not go out on maternity leave before you'd even be up to speed. I've seen it happen too, and if the team close ranks on you, it doesn't bode well.

It's all well and good talking about laws and rules etc, but you have to look at these situations realistically too.

18-12-2015 10:13PM

Glinda wrote: »

You can probably tell from some of the posts that there are a considerable number of people who take a very dim view of women taking maternity leave

I have to say I've read the thread and I haven't gotten that impression at all. I think there are a considerable number of people who take a very dim view of women knowing they'll be on maternity leave and taking a job anyway, knowing the employer will be stuck almost immediately.

Surely it's similar to joining a sports team with a badly damaged leg. Then once you're signed up, you turn around and say "oh, by the way, I can't play, from the Xth of April I'll be recovering from surgery".

It comes across as dishonest, but also, in my opinion, foolish.

I would chance my arm, OP, and not say anything, if it was a handy job around the corner. If they take a bad light to her and sack her, so be it. Nothing ventured, etc.

However.. to play such a risky game when you're moving country for the job?! That's crazy. If the company are gonna be pissed off about this, they'll get rid of her. I'd rather know that before I've packed up everything, rather than when I'm in the middle of ballygobackwards, not knowing anyone* and being fully pregnant and unemployable.

Waaay too risky for my liking. Id rather take maternity leave from my current job (Assuming she's already employed) than take it from a job that I might only be in for a few months before getting let go for some reason or another (and as said already, one late morning or poor performance and the company have something to twist in their favour).

If it was me running the place and I didn't want a pregnant person there, then they wouldn't be there. I'd get rid one way or another. If I didn't care whether or not she was pregnant, then finding out before she starts wouldn't be an issue for me.

However, even if I didn't care, and had 100 pregnant women working for me, I'd still feel a little bit pissed off if she signed a contract and then suddenly burst out with the "oh, by the way". It would definitely start her off on the bad books. It's deceitful.

(*you may already know everyone, that's an assumption on my part).

But that's just my opinion!

Pregnant and moving to Ireland to start a new job. Should I tell?

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