Is pinching someone's butt sexual assault?

newport2 · 01-12-2015 04:02PM

NachoBusiness wrote: »

That's fair enough (with regards to the behavior you highlight as being out of order at least, as it undoubtedly is) but, by also adding "some rat faced little buffoon" you are suggesting (whether you mean to or not) that you wouldn't really have an issue with such behavior if the blokes were good looking and tall. Otherwise, why bother referencing the appearance of men you don't want groping you? Seems odd.

To just string on an insult to describe someone who would do that. Could add "stupid dense idiot" to describe him too, doesn't mean the pinch would be welcome if he was intelligent.

kylith · 01-12-2015 04:05PM

riclad wrote: »

IT,s sexual harrassment ,if some one touches you on the butt .
unless its a joke by friend or relative .
I don,t think you can say i got sexually assaulted if you are fully dressed ,
and the other person is fully dressed .

What about if someone grabs my crotch or my breasts? Is that also not sexual assault if I have clothes on?

Avatar MIA · 01-12-2015 04:43PM

Sexual Assault, Sexual harassment... I'd also be in the Sexual Harassment camp.

Someone should go to jail for Sexual assault. While I think it is highly unacceptable for a girl to be pinched I don't think that in itself deserves a custodial sentence.

Recoded, if proven... I'd be okay with that.

smash · 01-12-2015 04:47PM

Is slapping someone's arse in the same boat?

When I was 15/16 working as a lounge boy in a bar I regularly had my arse slapped by drunken women after taking an order or dropping their drinks to the table.

jimgoose · 01-12-2015 04:49PM

smash wrote: »

Is slapping someone's arse in the same boat?

When I was 15/16 working as a lounge boy in a bar I regularly had my arse slapped by drunken women after taking an order or dropping their drinks to the table.

Handling anyone's posterior without appropriate air-traffic control clearance is not on, chief.

smash · 01-12-2015 04:50PM

jimgoose wrote: »

Handling anyone's posterior without appropriate air-traffic control clearance is not on, chief.

I didn't give a shit as long as I got a good tip.

jimgoose · 01-12-2015 04:51PM

smash wrote: »

I didn't give a shit as long as I got a good tip.

More'n the tip you'd get in some places, bah! :eek:

smash · 01-12-2015 04:52PM

jimgoose wrote: »

Handling anyone's posterior without appropriate air-traffic control clearance is not on, chief.

Has anyone ever said to you "Goose, it's time to buzz the tower?" before they go in hand first?

jimgoose · 01-12-2015 04:55PM

smash wrote: »

Has anyone ever said to you "Goose, it's time to buzz the tower?" before they go in hand first?

I feel the Need!

NachoBusiness · 01-12-2015 05:39PM

newport2 wrote: »

To just string on an insult to describe someone who would do that. Could add "stupid dense idiot" to describe him too, doesn't mean the pinch would be welcome if he was intelligent.

That's an easy out in fairness. If the insult came after the event, and was made about a specific guy, then I would not question it, I would understand it, somewhat, but it was said in the context of being abused in the future. There are two reasons I take exception to this. 1) because in my experience scumbag men come in all shapes and sizes (not just rat faced short ones) and 2) it further unfairly stereotypes short unattractive men.

Only two or three weeks back when the Ireland match was on I seen a guy of around 5ft 4 or so being called a "short arse creep" (much to the amusement of her friends). The guy walked off out onto Dame St looking desolate and you could just tell that what had been said destroyed him. Of course, it's far from uncommon to speak in such a derogatory way about short guys and for men, this is just another example of it.

Personally, I just don't see the need for it. I take issue with a lot of obnoxious things which women do when out of a night but I am not going to just refer to them all as fat and ugly as it wouldn't make any sense to. Maybe if I am speaking about one woman I might. I highly doubt it though as what she looked liked would be irrelevant. Again, if I did say something about how I wish fat ugly women would stop doing x, y or z, then I would expect to be called on it as it being indicative of my just have an issue with what the women did because of how they looked.

smash wrote: »

Is slapping someone's arse in the same boat?

Nope. Well, not according to the courts at least as a guy in Swords received an eight month sentence for it.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 01-12-2015 06:17PM

So wait - it's fair game to be felt up but you can't acknowledge they looked like a double for Roland the rat?
When I personally go out, I go out with either my oh (rarely) or my best friends (mostly) so it's for cocktails and fun, and catching up. It's not to eye up attractive or unattractive people. I don't care what they look like, until it comes to having to register their ugly face in my brain, after they've had their hands on me.

I don't care if channing Tatum himself came up and grabbed my arse, I'd still think he's a dick. Is that supposed to be flattering? It's not, and if they offend me, I won't feel bad about thinking they're ugly. They wouldn't even be on my radar if they kept their hands to themselves and I won't apologise for thinking it either

Azalea · 01-12-2015 11:32PM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

So wait - it's fair game to be felt up

Ah now, that wasn't said.

but you can't acknowledge they looked like a double for Roland the rat?

It was just meant that there didn't seem to be a need to mention the looks of the person doing so - that it shouldn't make a difference.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 01-12-2015 11:44PM

Azalea wrote: »

Ah now, that wasn't said.

It was just meant that there didn't seem to be a need to mention the looks of the person doing so - that it shouldn't make a difference.

It is what it is. Should I be grateful or flattered that some yoke decides for whatever reason that I'm fair game? It's natural to assume that I'm approached by him for the way I look, either he thinks he has a chance or he's making fun of me but eitherway, he's judging my appearance and acting on it, so I'll judge him right back.

bridgettedon · 02-12-2015 12:11AM

I find if someone does something I immensely dislike then I tend to describe that person's appearance in a negative way. It's more a reflection on them as a whole person, rather than just their physical appearance.

DivingDuck · 02-12-2015 12:59AM

bridgettedon wrote: »

I find if someone does something I immensely dislike then I tend to describe that person's appearance in a negative way. It's more a reflection on them as a whole person, rather than just their physical appearance.

Bad behaviour can make the most physically beautiful person appear very ugly, very fast. If you see someone doing something that you really find reprehensible and you haven't already formed an emotional connection to them, it mostly means you'll find them unattractive.

I remember reading that Roald Dahl book, The Twits, when I was a kid. This quote stuck with me:

“If a person has ugly thoughts, it begins to show on the face. And when that person has ugly thoughts every day, every week, every year, the face gets uglier and uglier until you can hardly bear to look at it.

A person who has good thoughts cannot ever be ugly. You can have a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have good thoughts it will shine out of your face like sunbeams and you will always look lovely.”

Maybe a bit extreme in the expression, but I think the sentiment is certainly true.

02-12-2015 01:03AM

DivingDuck wrote: »

Maybe a bit extreme in the expression, but I think the sentiment is certainly true.

I think that's a lovely quote with more than a grain of truth to it.

Ugly on the inside is much harder to overlook than ugly on the outside.

ThinkProgress · 02-12-2015 01:17AM

Ted Bundy was a fine lookin chap. The ladies found him very easy on the eye... yet he was pure EVIL to his core!

He even had female followers after his crimes became public.

His angelic face seemed to hypnotize many women into thinking he was a good guy.

Very similar with Charles Manson too!

It's a nice idea - being able to see badness - but I think that's a bit simplistic. Wishful thinking almost.

It can be the case sometimes. But not always!

DivingDuck · 02-12-2015 01:35AM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

It's a nice idea - being able to see badness - but I think that's a bit simplistic. Wishful thinking almost.

It can be the case sometimes. But not always!

That's why I said extreme in the expression-- it can, of course, be harder to tell, and there are many awful people out there who manage to hide it.

Seeing or experiencing someone doing something ugly is much harder to hide, though.

As for people who are "into" serial killers... Not to put too fine a point on it, but I really don't think those people are mentally well. Many death row inmates have personal and intimate correspondence with people they didn't know before they were convicted. The Times did a piece on it here, and there's an organisation to arrange pen pals for them, which is a very kind thing to do, but people who are, as a romantic preference, attracted to murderers should probably seek help before they make the kind of choices that could see their lives being ended.

ThinkProgress · 02-12-2015 01:51AM

DivingDuck wrote: »

That's why I said extreme in the expression-- it can, of course, be harder to tell, and there are many awful people out there who manage to hide it.

Seeing or experiencing someone doing something ugly is much harder to hide, though.

As for people who are "into" serial killers... Not to put too fine a point on it, but I really don't think those people are mentally well. Many death row inmates have personal and intimate correspondence with people they didn't know before they were convicted. The Times did a piece on it here, and there's an organisation to arrange pen pals for them, which is a very kind thing to do, but people who are, as a romantic preference, attracted to murderers should probably seek help before they make the kind of choices that could see their lives being ended.

Seeing someone do something horrible obviously has a direct effect on how you view them. But I don't think it necessarily changes how they look.

And there are many women out there who are attracted to bad guys. Dysfunctional, abusive, broken etc.. They simply can't help being drawn to them!

What about those people. Do you think they're seeing an ugly face? (I'm not talking about murderers btw - like your above example - just everyday run of the mill bad guys)

I think many women in particular tend to see good in some people, that many others would not. And often also ignore the ugly parts of their personality!

NachoBusiness · 02-12-2015 02:00AM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

So wait - it's fair game to be felt up..

Show me where I said or even suggested that it was "fair game" for men to grope women or anything close to it! I said no such thing and you know damn well I didn't. On the contrary in fact, I said quite the opposite:

NachoBusiness wrote: »

If the insult came after the event, and was made about a specific guy, then I would not question it, I would understand it..

I even went so far as to suggest that men who grope women are scum:

NachoBusiness wrote: »

.. in my experience scumbag men come in all shapes and sizes (not just rat faced short ones)..

..but you can't acknowledge they looked like a double for Roland the rat?

If it was about a specific guy, of course you could, but you weren't referring to one guy, Lexie, you were speaking generally about men who you don't want acting in this manner towards you. You seem to have some trouble with the points I have made and I am not sure why. Like I said, I take issue with the behavior of some women when I'm out but if I said something akin to: "I hate when fat ugly faced women come up to me and expect me to buy them drinks all night" wouldn't you think that was odd? That I only cited 'fat & ugly' women? Would you not think that was quite telling? You never answered me the first time, perhaps now you might?

I don't care if channing Tatum himself came up and grabbed my arse, I'd still think he's a dick.

Fine, but if Channing Tatum or Liam Hemsworth did grab your arse, that wouldn't suddenly make them Roland Rat lookalikes now would it. That's the point.

They wouldn't even be on my radar if they kept their hands to themselves and I won't apologise for thinking it either

You see, with this comment you yet again insinuate that it's only ugly men (men that wouldn't otherwise be on your 'radar) that grope women. How can you not see what you're suggesting? Has a man that has been on your radar never turned out to be an asshole and mistreated you? If not, then you would are a rarity among women as in my experience almost all women have had a guy they fancied and who they had thought was lovely, get very handsy with them to the point where they had to assert themselves to get them to leave.

DivingDuck · 02-12-2015 02:39AM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Seeing someone do something horrible obviously has a direct effect on how you view them. But I don't think it necessarily changes how they look.

Human perception is an enormously elastic thing.

How anyone looks is down to your frame of mind when you see the person: your expectations and experience shape what you see. Two girls can look at one guy and one will think, "He's nice" while the other will think "Not for me" (or less work-safe versions of same). To put it in simple terms, the majority of people are not 1s or 10s-- attractiveness, like most human traits, can be expressed with a Bell curve. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, and that area is very grey and open to being influenced by other things.

Let's say a guy is objectively a 6, but he smiles a lot, has nice manners, loves cats, can cook, has money --whatever traits a girl might be attracted to-- then she might express how attracted she is to him as an 8 or a 9 out of 10. Your perception of how a person looks isn't an absolute-- it can change, and if someone is in the average range of objective attractiveness, behaviour can nudge them towards the higher or lower end quite easily.

I've heard girls whose boyfriends were really lovely to them talk about how gorgeous they are, when I would not have considered those guys good looking at all. Love, even the beginnings of love, can really pop on the rose-coloured glasses.

And there are many women out there who are attracted to bad guys. Dysfunctional, abusive, broken etc.. They simply can't help being drawn to them!

What about those people. Do you think they're seeing an ugly face? (I'm not talking about murderers btw - like your above example - just everyday run of the mill bad guys)

I think girls who habitually go after bad guys have some unaddressed issues as well, if I'm being absolutely honest. I believe it's unhealthy to persistently pursue people whose behaviour indicates they will treat you poorly. There are plenty of reasons for it, though. In some cases, it's a desire to be proven "special" by meriting good treatment where others haven't, or simply being able to make a healthy impact on someone's life by being a source of influence and inspiration for positive change. Some people may confuse aggressive behaviour for an expression of desire or protectiveness.

In some cases, the guy's bad behaviour will put him in the path of more women, in terms of sheer visibility (everyone remembers the trouble maker from their class, whatever you thought of him, but you might not remember the quietest guy, or the kindest), but also through being prepared to take more risks by approaching women. "Bad boys" often have higher confidence and are less bothered by rejection, so they'll try more than once with the same girl, or with many girls. Someone who is truly callous doesn't take the same emotional hit as a nicer guy that might make him shut down and withdraw for a while before starting over. The bad boys are out there chasing skirt day in and day out, and they don't care how many drinks in the face they get or how often they're told they're undesirable because they don't value the opinions of the girls they're chasing.

Some studies have even indicated that it's natural evolutionary behaviour, where bad boys being more charming and manipulative, coupled with girls being more drawn to strong-appearing men in the hopes they'll provide strong offspring, makes for an attraction match regardless of the goodness or validity of the man's behaviour.

At the end of the day, though, a bad boy, or a bad girl, is not a smart choice. Most people will eventually realise, at some point in their life, that what they want is someone who will treat them with kindness and respect. When someone's in that frame of mind, a 5 or a 6 can become an 8 or 9 very rapidly.

JupiterKid · 02-12-2015 04:01AM

Bum pinching - I would see it more sexual harrasment than sexual assault. And that goes in the case of a woman doing it to a man.

Anywho - it's a no no these days.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 02-12-2015 09:34AM

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Show me where I said or even suggested that it was "fair game" for men to grope women or anything close to it! I said no such thing and you know damn well I didn't. On the contrary in fact, I said quite the opposite:

I even went so far as to suggest that men who grope women are scum:

If it was about a specific guy, of course you could, but you weren't referring to one guy, Lexie, you were speaking generally about men who you don't want acting in this manner towards you. You seem to have some trouble with the points I have made and I am not sure why. Like I said, I take issue with the behavior of some women when I'm out but if I said something akin to: "I hate when fat ugly faced women come up to me and expect me to buy them drinks all night" wouldn't you think that was odd? That I only cited 'fat & ugly' women? Would you not think that was quite telling? You never answered me the first time, perhaps now you might?

Fine, but if Channing Tatum or Liam Hemsworth did grab your arse, that wouldn't suddenly make them Roland Rat lookalikes now would it. That's the point.

You see, with this comment you yet again insinuate that it's only ugly men (men that wouldn't otherwise be on your 'radar) that grope women. How can you not see what you're suggesting? Has a man that has been on your radar never turned out to be an asshole and mistreated you? If not, then you would are a rarity among women as in my experience almost all women have had a guy they fancied and who they had thought was lovely, get very handsy with them to the point where they had to assert themselves to get them to leave.

To be fair Nacho, in my experience it's usually the guy with questionable looks who'll do it. This isn't always the case, of course, but generally better looking guys have better social skills and more confidence/experience with women to know that you don't go over and smack someone's bum to make a good impression. Of course, that's generally speaking and not true in each case but I think it's a fair enough observation to make.

Also, kind of like what everyone else is saying - doing ugly things tends to make you an ugly person in the eyes of a stranger.

NachoBusiness · 02-12-2015 02:25PM

@Lexie: you accused me of suggesting it was "fair game" to abuse women. You ignored my response to that. I take it you accepting now that I did no such thing?

LexieOnRale wrote: »

To be fair Nacho in my experience it's usually the guy with questionable looks who'll do it. This isn't always the case, of course, but generally better looking guys have better social skills and more confidence/experience with women to know that you don't go over and smack someone's bum to make a good impression. Of course, that's generally speaking and not true in each case but I think it's a fair enough observation to make. Also, kind of like what everyone else is saying - doing ugly things tends to make you an ugly person in the eyes of a stranger.

The last line has a grain of truth, as has already been said, but again you are not and were not talking about one specific guy. How many times does that point have to be made to you exactly? You also yet again ignored my question asking you what you would think if I (or any guy for that matter) said that they didn't want 'ugly fat' women asking them to buy them drinks all night. There is a reason you are ignoring these points I feel and that is because to answer them, honestly at least, would mean you would have to concede points being put to you.

As for good looking men have better manners: what absolute twaddle. The truth is that you see good looking guys one way and unattractive guys another. This is clear and age old and and if it's clear here, then out in the real world that attitude is gonna come off you like steam. As far as I'm concerned, it's akin to saying White people have better manners than Black people. You are obviously deeply prejudiced against men (maybe women too?) who you feel are unattractive. Saying you don't want rat faced men groping you is just the latest example of it though. On the 'Undatable' thread you spoke of how older bald men with beer bellies shouldn't approach you as it should be obvious to them that you are two or three levels out of their league. Your comments here are just more of the same nonsense really.

Just to be clear, Lexie: I have no problem with how ever the hell you want to describe a specific guy who has groped you. Call the man a rat faced midget till the cows come home for all I care. You met him, how the hell would I know what he looks like. That's not what I am taking issue with here however. What I take issue with are two things: 1) people who just appear to have a problem with unattractive people and 2) people creating the false stereotype that it's "generally" unattractive" people that are prone to mistreating others. Going from the content of your posts it appears to me to just really all be a case of confirmation bias. You're a woman speaking about men though and so I don't think many will be all that bothered. A man suggesting he doesn't want rat faced, fat, ugly women groping him would not be so well accommodated I feel, but hey, maybe I'm wrong.

zeffabelli · 02-12-2015 02:37PM

Is this really a problem?

My ass hasnt been pinched or slapped since late primary school?

Do people actually do this?

orubiru · 02-12-2015 03:05PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

Is this really a problem?

My ass hasnt been pinched or slapped since late primary school?

Do people actually do this?

Sadly, yes, people do stuff like that all the time. Men and women.

Regarding motivations or whether or not it's really a huge problem? I don't know if anyone has the answers. It's just an interesting debate.

It's a huge problem if you think it is. I think it's a really terrible way to behave but I don't have the ability to control people's actions so that's kind of irrelevant.

Probably not a popular opinion but I reckon if you looked at human behavior from an evolutionary perspective you'd probably find that there is a good reason why this is part of human nature. Not going to get into that.

I would never pinch someone's butt. I think it's pretty awful behavior.

If someone pinched my gf's bum on a night out I would probably not react well at all.

If my bum was pinched then I have to confess that my response would be determined by my assessment of the attractiveness of the person doing the pinching.

NachoBusiness · 02-12-2015 03:25PM

orubiru wrote: »

If my bum was pinched then I have to confess that my response would be determined by my assessment of the attractiveness of the person doing the pinching.

At least you're honest.

orubiru · 02-12-2015 03:47PM

NachoBusiness wrote: »

At least you're honest.

Sure, we all know the stories of celebrities treating people like absolute garbage and still those same people fawn all over them.

This is not exactly the same but there is still an element of that there.

A lot of folks will accept bad behavior from someone if they think that there may be some benefit down the line.

As I said regarding consent, it's not that people don't know that what they are doing is wrong. They know it's wrong. They just feel like they can get away with it.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 02-12-2015 04:04PM

NachoBusiness wrote: »

@Lexie: you accused me of suggesting it was "fair game" to abuse women. You ignored my response to that. I take it you accepting now that I did no such thing?

The last line has a grain of truth, as has already been said, but again you are not and were not talking about one specific guy. How many times does that point have to be made to you exactly? You also yet again ignored my question asking you what you would think if I (or any guy for that matter) said that they didn't want 'ugly fat' women asking them to buy them drinks all night. There is a reason you are ignoring these points I feel and that is because to answer them, honestly at least, would mean you would have to concede points being put to you.

As for good looking men have better manners: what absolute twaddle. The truth is that you see good looking guys one way and unattractive guys another. This is clear and age old and and if it's clear here, then out in the real world that attitude is gonna come off you like steam. As far as I'm concerned, it's akin to saying White people have better manners than Black people. You are obviously deeply prejudiced against men (maybe women too?) who you feel are unattractive. Saying you don't want rat faced men groping you is just the latest example of it though. On the 'Undatable' thread you spoke of how older bald men with beer bellies shouldn't approach you as it should be obvious to them that you are two or three levels out of their league. Your comments here are just more of the same nonsense really.

Just to be clear, Lexie: I have no problem with how ever the hell you want to describe a specific guy who has groped you. Call the man a rat faced midget till the cows come home for all I care. You met him, how the hell would I know what he looks like. That's not what I am taking issue with here however. What I take issue with are two things: 1) people who just appear to have a problem with unattractive people and 2) people creating the false stereotype that it's "generally" unattractive" people that are prone to mistreating others. Going from the content of your posts it appears to me to just really all be a case of confirmation bias. You're a woman speaking about men though and so I don't think many will be all that bothered. A man suggesting he doesn't want rat faced, fat, ugly women groping him would not be so well accommodated I feel, but hey, maybe I'm wrong.

I've found people who've groped me in the past to be ugly vile reprobates. And yes, that's collectively. I have never been groped (by a stranger) that I've found attractive. Whether it's his actions, or his looks, or his respect for women that I find offputting, who cares?

Like I said, channing Tatum himself could maul me and I'll still be disgusted because I do not like strangers putting their hands on me.

If you don't like being touched up by fat women that's your own perrogotive.

NachoBusiness · 02-12-2015 04:21PM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Like I said, channing Tatum himself could maul me and I'll still be disgusted because I do not like strangers putting their hands on me.

And like I said, if Channing Tatum did grope you that wouldn't suddenly make him short, nor indeed, a Roland Rat lookalike.

If you don't like being touched up by fat women that's your own perrogotive.

First you suggest I have said it's "fair game" for men to grope women and when asked to point out where I did this, you don't (wonder why) and now you're suggesting that at some point I have said I don't want fat women groping me. Can you please quote where I have done either of these things. Cheers.

Is pinching someone's butt sexual assault?

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