Restaurants to charge a euro for tap water

LordSutch · 01-12-2015 09:15PM

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

I'm sure pubs in the UK have been charging 50p for tap water in the UK for years now?

Parts of the UK maybe? but not in the South West/West Country/South London.
(well I haven't come across it on my travels)!

People just wouldn't tolerate it.

Arbiter of Good Taste · 01-12-2015 09:42PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

I said maximising profits at the expense of a lot. There's a difference.

Actually I have both sides of the story. I quoted one side, the disgruntled workers as you put it.

I blame management for all of it. The restaurant industry benefits from a low VAT rate. It was introduced to assist it. But the industry is abusing it and prices are still creeping up. This water charge is a pitiful attempt at publicity that will lead to higher meal prices IMO. Food is an easy business. If you can't make money from it, then you shouldn't be in the game. High end. Low end. Take your friggin pick.

Really? I would have thought running a restaurant is incredibly difficult. Unless you are in a prime city centre location, it's a hard sell.

Grandeeod · 01-12-2015 09:53PM

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Really? I would have thought running a restaurant is incredibly difficult. Unless you are in a prime city centre location, it's a hard sell.

Yes. Really. If its incredibly difficult, then why do we have so many of them? Lots come and go because they havent a clue. Those who stay around, stay around for a reason. A prime city centre location has nothing to do with it. There are restaurants in every town across the country doing well. I accept that rents/rates are outrageous, but they have been for a while. Cut your cloth. Target your market and don't rip off your customer base. There are far too many restauranteurs with their heads stuck way too far up their own holes. They usually lose a lot of money.

the groutch · 01-12-2015 10:00PM

Adyx wrote: »

Besides the RAI has anyone firm proof of a restaurant saying they were going to do this? There's an awful lot of accusations and name calling ("s umbags" - really?) But I don't know of one place that has implemented this.

of course not, it's just your usual Indo clickbait.

Muahahaha · 01-12-2015 10:06PM

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Really? I would have thought running a restaurant is incredibly difficult. Unless you are in a prime city centre location, it's a hard sell.

Restaurants don't necessarily have to be in a city centre to do well. Nevin Maguire's restaurant is way up in Cavan and you can't get a table in it for months. Most of his custom comes from people living in Dublin and surrounds which goes to show that location isn't the be all and end all- If you serve outstanding food people are willing to travel and make an effort no matter where your location.

Bob24 · 01-12-2015 10:14PM

ScumLord wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with maximising profits. That's what any business is about. You could say pretty much the same thing about an iPhone.

Maximising profit is fine - and customers can stop coming if they don't like it.

But saying an additional fee is being introduced to cover a new expense for the business whereas that expanse is purely fictional - at best it is dishonesty and possibly even defamation (trying to make people believe Irish Water is responsible for the additional cost whereas 100% of the money would actually go to the business owner).

Muahahaha · 01-12-2015 10:15PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

Staff are poorly paid and work long and often unsociable hours. Staff turn over is high. While you sit there paying crazy money for average food (in many places) behind the scenes its about maximising profit at the expense of a lot.

Now before the AH "provide a source" brigade come stomping out, I base my opinions on knowing lots of chefs and waiting staff. Some of the stories are horrific. Its been this way for a long time. I did my stints as a waiter/kitchen porter in my student days. Saw a lot. I used to eat out a lot, but jacked it in due to seeing too much penny pinching and rising prices. This industry got a VAT reduction and still it wants to ride people to high heaven. **** em and their 1 yo yo charge for water. A lot of restaurants are systematically killing themselves and any semblence of a reputation they held.

I'd largely agree with this. I worked in the industry for 12 odd years and it was the worsening wages and conditions that drove me away. I enjoyed the work a lot but if you keep doing it you'll just burn out. The conditions are even worse now in 2015 than they were in 2004 when I took a different career path. Back then I was getting paid €12 an hour, no way would you get the same money for that job now- wages in the hospitality industry have not tracked inflation to any degree and as a result they have gone backwards relative to your purchasing power and at a time when the cost of living has massively increased.

ScumLord · 01-12-2015 10:44PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

I said maximising profits at the expense of a lot. There's a difference.

Actually I have both sides of the story. I quoted one side, the disgruntled workers as you put it.

I blame management for all of it. The restaurant industry benefits from a low VAT rate. It was introduced to assist it. But the industry is abusing it and prices are still creeping up. This water charge is a pitiful attempt at publicity that will lead to higher meal prices IMO. Food is an easy business. If you can't make money from it, then you shouldn't be in the game. High end. Low end. Take your friggin pick.

Well as it's easy and every other restaurant in the business is overcharging, it should be a sure fire winner for anyone half ways decent to open a restaurant and succeed.

Grandeeod · 01-12-2015 10:48PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Well as it's easy and every other restaurant in the business is overcharging, it should be a sure fire winner for anyone half ways decent to open a restaurant and succeed.

It is. Lots of big success stories without a top rated chef at the helm.

Qualitymark · 02-12-2015 11:07AM

Bob24 wrote: »

Maximising profit is fine - and customers can stop coming if they don't like it.

This is the attitude that has killed much of Irish business, closing family businesses that have thrived for generations. It used to be that the point of a business was to sell good goods for a fair price, pay decent wages and give good conditions to your workforce, and spend the money you all made on other good goods produced by other businesses - "we all take in one another's washing", as used to be said.

The idea that a business is rather a way of harvesting profit by skimming your service to give the minimum possible while charging the maximum possible to the poor sheep who are your customers - and then to avail of an 'exit strategy' and sell the business at as high a profit as possible, rather than developing it lovingly and passing it on down your family - has wrecked this country's economy and polity.

colossus-x · 02-12-2015 02:17PM

I have a suggestion for all the stingbags. Order a pint of ice cubes and melt it over the table candle.

Bob24 · 02-12-2015 02:44PM

colossus-x wrote: »

I have a suggestion for all the stingbags. Order a pint of ice cubes and melt it over the table candle.

No problem sir, it will be 1 euro for the water and an additional 1 euro to cover the electricity to freeze it.

ScumLord · 02-12-2015 03:50PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

This is the attitude that has killed much of Irish business, closing family businesses that have thrived for generations. It used to be that the point of a business was to sell good goods for a fair price, pay decent wages and give good conditions to your workforce, and spend the money you all made on other good goods produced by other businesses - "we all take in one another's washing", as used to be said.

The idea that a business is rather a way of harvesting profit by skimming your service to give the minimum possible while charging the maximum possible to the poor sheep who are your customers - and then to avail of an 'exit strategy' and sell the business at as high a profit as possible, rather than developing it lovingly and passing it on down your family - has wrecked this country's economy and polity.

This is just a fantasy. Everything was better in the past, everyone was honest and people didn't even think of the profits. It's blatantly untrue. From what I remember of 80s business people (the ones that started the boom,) was borderline dictatorships, that would do anything to save themselves money and could get away with it because there was no one checking on them that wasn't getting a back hander.

Idbatterim · 02-12-2015 03:58PM

what is the cost of a glass of water, less than a cent? Its pathetic! The government should put up the vat rate from 9% to 13.5% again...

Oafley Jones · 02-12-2015 04:08PM

Bob24 wrote: »

Commercial premises were already charged for water by local authorities, no change there. And the cost of a glass of water in terms of an IW bill is in the region of 0.1 cent (that's 1000 glasses for 1 euro).

The cost of water has nothing to do with this, it's just a new charge they want to introduce.

Precisely. Its a useful excuse. They either hope to get 99% profit on the glass of water, or recognising that some won't pay this, steer customers towards high margin sodas etc.

suicide_circus · 02-12-2015 04:14PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

This is the attitude that has killed much of Irish business, closing family businesses that have thrived for generations. It used to be that the point of a business was to sell good goods for a fair price, pay decent wages and give good conditions to your workforce, and spend the money you all made on other good goods produced by other businesses - "we all take in one another's washing", as used to be said.

The idea that a business is rather a way of harvesting profit by skimming your service to give the minimum possible while charging the maximum possible to the poor sheep who are your customers - and then to avail of an 'exit strategy' and sell the business at as high a profit as possible, rather than developing it lovingly and passing it on down your family - has wrecked this country's economy and polity.

It many other European countries, people still operate family businesses which turn enough of a profit to keep a roof over their heads and the kids fed. Nothing extravagant. Here everyone wants to be Gordon Gekko with their piddley little cafe selling artisan (read bought-in low grade) pastries. People don't seem content to tick over. Everyone needs to max the envelope and their "success" to be seen by others (best achieved by buying a 5 series on finance).

suicide_circus · 02-12-2015 04:15PM

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Precisely. Its a useful excuse. They either hope to get 99% profit on the glass of water, or recognising that some won't pay this, steer customers towards high margin sodas etc.

Tap water will be their highest margin item!

Grandeeod · 02-12-2015 04:34PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

It many other European countries, people still operate family businesses which turn enough of a profit to keep a roof over their heads and the kids fed. Nothing extravagant. Here everyone wants to be Gordon Gekko with their piddley little cafe selling artisan (read bought-in low grade) pastries. People don't seem content to tick over. Everyone needs to max the envelope and their "success" to be seen by others (best achieved by buying a 5 series on finance).

I couldn't agree more with this. Sums it up for me. Having lived in another European country for a few years, it was great to see restaurants/cafes owner operated serving up great food at decent prices and in some cases living above establishment instead of a 5 bed detached gaff in the burbs. Before moving away, it was an industry forever moaning. Since moving back, I find its still an industry forever moaning.

ScumLord · 02-12-2015 04:58PM

Most people don't start a business to tick over and just put food on the table. You can do that with much less hassle by just getting a job for someone else. This is getting a bit ridiculous now. People are being demonized for wanting to make a successful business, people with no business experience painting all restaurant owners out to be money grubbing, because running a restaurant is easy obviously. People on the continent run businesses because they just like serving people and everyone else should be happy to do the bare minimum like them.

All this because some guy said restaurants should charge for a glass of water. The way internet disgust can go from a stand still to crying genocide never ceases to amaze.

suicide_circus · 02-12-2015 05:08PM

I'm not deamonising anyone, just remarking that the "happy to tick along" business model dosnt seem to exist in Ireland where as it does elsewhere

ScumLord · 02-12-2015 05:13PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

I'm not deamonising anyone, just remarking that the "happy to tick along" business model dosnt seem to exist in Ireland where as it does elsewhere

Ireland is a very different market to the continent though. You can have small business that are isolated enough to just tick along, or populated enough that they'll get enough footfall even if they're not great. In Ireland with each town being a short car journey away, means each town is essentially in competition with each other, over a very limited customer base.

I still don't see anything wrong with businesses not wanting to "tick along", it's not a good way to be. Once anything goes wrong they may not have enough money to overcome that problem without going belly up.

Any business I saw ticking along over the UK was under new management when I went back.

Idbatterim · 02-12-2015 05:41PM

I actually wouldnt agree that restaurants for the most part are overpriced here, I actually think they are very good value, particularly the early birds. But charging for water is a joke! Simply put up the cost of a dish a few cent! Just coming out of the recession alone and the bump there will be in spending, means there is no need for it!

One thing I will say, the cost of wine is a joke! didnt the government in the budget before last, increase it another €1 per per bottle!

rubadub · 02-12-2015 06:12PM

slimjimmc wrote: »

Restaurants have to make drinking water available but nothing says they have to give it for free.

Eg S.I. No. 147/1988

That link appears to be for a special restaurant licence. Is there a link saying all restaurants have to have drinking water available? I know years ago I think some fast food places only had soft drinks & milkshakes and no bottled water.

There are other things seemingly required in that link which are certainly not in many restaurants. e.g. I doubt any vegan/veggie restaurants have

( b ) a choice of five main courses, one of which shall be meat;

And many chinese & Indian places would not have
a good selection of cheeses

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

49c for 2L still water in Dunnes and Tescos, so can I bring with in with me

If its a BYOB place they might, they might charge corkage.

Idbatterim wrote: »

what is the cost of a glass of water, less than a cent? Its pathetic!

So they are charging a euro above cost, one of the cheapest things on the menu. A glass of apple juice could be €2 or €3 above cost, and beer could be €5. It only sounds impressive if you skew figures with this silly game of only looking at margins.

Arbiter of Good Taste · 02-12-2015 06:25PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

This is the attitude that has killed much of Irish business, closing family businesses that have thrived for generations. It used to be that the point of a business was to sell good goods for a fair price, pay decent wages and give good conditions to your workforce, and spend the money you all made on other good goods produced by other businesses - "we all take in one another's washing", as used to be said.

The idea that a business is rather a way of harvesting profit by skimming your service to give the minimum possible while charging the maximum possible to the poor sheep who are your customers - and then to avail of an 'exit strategy' and sell the business at as high a profit as possible, rather than developing it lovingly and passing it on down your family - has wrecked this country's economy and polity.

Complete and utter balderdash. Ever hear of James Larkin and the union movement. Why was that needed if everything was so rosy before :rolleyes:

desertcircus · 02-12-2015 06:44PM

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Complete and utter balderdash. Ever hear of James Larkin and the union movement. Why was that needed if everything was so rosy before :rolleyes:

To a huge extent, though, postwar European economic growth involved a radical improvement in living standards across the board and a much more even share of economic growth. It's a little off-topic, but over the past quarter century we've seen a massive shift in attitudes and economic structures, as almost every company is trying desperately to pay its staff as little as possible and its directors as much as possible while trying to sell more and more luxury products into an economy made up of workers who are in no position to spend money on luxury products. Nobody seems to realise that an economy that's 99% insecure temps and 1% plutocrats is an unspeakably awful one to be trying to sell luxuries to.

ScumLord · 02-12-2015 10:45PM

desertcircus wrote: »

To a huge extent, though, postwar European economic growth involved a radical improvement in living standards across the board and a much more even share of economic growth. It's a little off-topic, but over the past quarter century we've seen a massive shift in attitudes and economic structures, as almost every company is trying desperately to pay its staff as little as possible and its directors as much as possible while trying to sell more and more luxury products into an economy made up of workers who are in no position to spend money on luxury products. Nobody seems to realise that an economy that's 99% insecure temps and 1% plutocrats is an unspeakably awful one to be trying to sell luxuries to.

Perhaps, but we're all to blame for that. If we constantly reward companies that use these horrible tactics by buying their products just because they're cheaper, then we're as much to blame as anyone. We enforce high standards of workmanship, employee rights and quality standards in our own country but then end up buying the cheap crap from developing countries where employees get treated like crap and they have next to no quality controls.

We consistently value cheapness over everything else. I'm as guilty of it as the next person, we just can't help buying the cheap one, even though we know we'll end up buying ten times more of the cheap one because they inevitably break after a few uses.

It's everyone's fault. It's your fault, it's my fault, this is the world we created for ourselves and we all actively contribute to it on a daily basis.

Arbiter of Good Taste · 02-12-2015 11:00PM

desertcircus wrote: »

To a huge extent, though, postwar European economic growth involved a radical improvement in living standards across the board and a much more even share of economic growth. It's a little off-topic, but over the past quarter century we've seen a massive shift in attitudes and economic structures, as almost every company is trying desperately to pay its staff as little as possible and its directors as much as possible while trying to sell more and more luxury products into an economy made up of workers who are in no position to spend money on luxury products. Nobody seems to realise that an economy that's 99% insecure temps and 1% plutocrats is an unspeakably awful one to be trying to sell luxuries to.

I agree with you, the way employment seems to be shifting towards temp work and zero hours contracts is insidious and ultimately not for the common good.

However, the earlier poster was suggesting that, in the past, businesses were established for altruistic purposes, which is completely delusional.

Bob24 · 02-12-2015 11:11PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Perhaps, but we're all to blame for that. If we constantly reward companies that use these horrible tactics by buying their products just because they're cheaper, then we're as much to blame as anyone. We enforce high standards of workmanship, employee rights and quality standards in our own country but then end up buying the cheap crap from developing countries where employees get treated like crap and they have next to no quality controls.

We consistently value cheapness over everything else. I'm as guilty of it as the next person, we just can't help buying the cheap one, even though we know we'll end up buying ten times more of the cheap one because they inevitably break after a few uses.

It's everyone's fault. It's your fault, it's my fault, this is the world we created for ourselves and we all actively contribute to it on a daily basis.

The "it's everyone's fault" logic:

It's everyone's fault. -> It's no-one's fault in particular. -> We can't change the way it is. -> Let's keep going that way.

ScumLord · 03-12-2015 12:42PM

Bob24 wrote: »

The "it's everyone's fault" logic:

It's everyone's fault. -> It's no-one's fault in particular. -> We can't change the way it is. -> Let's keep going that way.

We can change the way it is but as long as everyone is pointing fingers at everyone else, demonising people for meeting the demands of their customers, then nothing is going to change. As long as most people refuse to accept the problem is a side effect of their own actions and behaviours then I don't see how anything can change.

vienne86 · 03-12-2015 02:06PM

I think it's a bit churlish for restaurants to charge for tap water - they have been benefitting from a reduced VAT rate for the last couple of years.

Restaurants to charge a euro for tap water

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