Geographic addresses vs Postal addresses

Townland,
Barony,
County

Should resolve to unique townlands. I'd imagine the brits saw to this anglicising the townland names.

Then your philosophical issues arise.

I'd go road number.distance from the start of the road.

For rural addresses.

For suburban/urban addresses, I'd make the OS look after road naming, and publish new road names as part of planning approval/commencement notice giving.

In my opinion, there's NO such thing like geographical vs. postal address.

Why?

Because one's address "describes" (cutting long story short) the place one lives in and nobody should accept any exceptions.

Say, here's an example of geographical address:

Joe Average (name)
Durrty House (house name)
Cloudymeadow (townland)
Ballymuddy (barony)
co. Somewhere.

But, An Post are insisting Joe he has to use so-called "postal address" which is convenient for An Post's routing thing:

Joe Average
Durrty House
Rainfield
Puddletown
co. Nearford.

Now, Joe's buddy, Rick, rings him:

R: Joe, what's your address?
J: If you're gonna visit me, it's Durrty House, Cloudymeadow, Ballymuddy, co. Somewhere. But if you're gonna send me a letter, DON'T USE THAT ONE! Send it to Durrty House, Rainfield, Puddletown, co. Nearford.
R: Thanks Joe, bye.



Utter nonsense!

If An Post are struggling with deliveries to someone's home address due to their complicated routing issues, IT'S THEIR PROBLEM! They're paid for proper and on-time mail delivery. End of story.

Sam Russell wrote: »

I suggested on the old thread, giving (or allowing to choose) each house a name - a bit like email addresses - on a first come fist served. Obviously there would have to be some level of arbitration to stop duplicates/rude/near copies etc.

So you would have:

House name,
Townland,
Barony,
County.

For example:

Browns
Gofor Upper,
Ballybegmore,
County Lessermore.

This could be implemented quickly and easily, but would need a central arbiter like the revenue or the planning depts.

When street names are added, numbers are then distance based.

Obviously. Because everyone in Ireland is entirely reasonable and more than willing to obey the directions of a central state agency.

That's why there's been absolutely no resistance to Irish Water... :P

Sorry to jump in here but I've been following this subject for a while. If Eircode was made compulsory or at least An Post were to use it then would it not "solve" this issue. Once the Eircode is on the letter then An Post can route it to whatever office they like irrespective of the address written on the letter. People could then use their address with the local town and county. Doon in County Offaly for example and An Post using the Eircode route it via Athlone in Westmeath. No need then to put labels on the front advising the postal address

Peregrinus wrote: »

[...]

"Address" doesn't mean where a place is located;

Wrong. It does exactly mean where the place is located.

Peregrinus wrote: »

it means how you approach the place.

That's called "directions".

Peregrinus wrote: »

And you can quite reasonably have different addresses for different kinds of approach - one where you want to go there physically, in which case an address describing the location of the property relative to other places is appropriate, and one where you want to send a letter or parcel there, for which an address focusing on the delivery route may be best.

No, no, no, no. One more time: Address describes location and it can be (and should be) totally unrelated to directions one has to go to get there.

Peregrinus wrote: »

If you want to send an electronic communication, an address referring to a domain name is the business; for a phone message, an address working off the telephone exchange (country code:area code:line number) is the way to go. And so forth.

[...]

And that's fine as none of above refer to a physical place - one can access email from any place in the world, phone number can be moved elsewhere without need to change. Once physical address is assigned to a dwelling, it has to be permanent and unchangeable whatsoever.

joujoujou wrote: »

Wrong. It does exactly mean where the place is located. That's called "directions". No, no, no, no. One more time: Address describes location and it can be (and should be) totally unrelated to directions one has to go to get there.

No, "address" refers to an approach. A lawyer addresses the court; do you imagine that has anything to do with the location of the courtroom? The address on a letter tells you place where the letter is supposed to go. An e-mail address tells you the (virtual) place where the e-mail will go. The English word to describe the concept of physical location is, unsurprisingly, "location"; we don't use the word "locate" to refer to addressing a court or an envelope, and for good reason.

The word English word "address" comes from the Old French adrecier, meaning to guide, direct or set right, which in turn comes from the Latin directus, which means straight or right. It has everything to do with directions, and in fact what we call the "address" on an envelope used to be called the "direction".

The "address" of any land means directions as to how to get there. It may or may not tell you something about the location. I can address a letter to John Smith, PO Box 123, Blackrock, County Dublin, and it will be delivered if he has made the appropriate arrangements. That's a valid address, but it gives me no real clue as to where he is.

By contrast, if you check your title deeds or land registry documents you'll find no part of them is described as an "address"; there'll be a "location" or "description" of the property. The only "address" on the documents will be the address of the registered owner, who may of course live at a completely different place, and that's included in case the authorities need to communicate with the owner by, e.g., sending him a letter.

joujoujou wrote: »

And that's fine as none of above refer to a physical place - one can access email from any place in the world, phone number can be moved elsewhere without need to change. Once physical address is assigned to a dwelling, it has to be permanent and unchangeable whatsoever.

The very fact that we use the word "address" to refer to virtual places, locations in computer memory, and other concepts that have no physical location should tell you that, fundamentally, the concept of address does not refer to physical location. It refers to directions for approach, and physical location is only one possible basis for such directions.

As for adresses, even those which refer to location, being "permanent and unchangeable whatsoever", that's ridiculous, and common experience tells you so. Streets can be renamed, houses can be renamed or renumbered or both, and there's slew of properties which used have addresses in Dollymount but now have addresses in Raheny or Clontarf, even though their physical location is completely unchanged.

Peregrinus wrote: »

If a person can have two or more names - and they can, both legally and as a matter of practice - then I see no fundamental problem with a location having two or more addresses.

"Address" doesn't mean where a place is located; it means how you approach the place. And you can quite reasonably have different addresses for different kinds of approach - one where you want to go there physically, in which case an address describing the location of the property relative to other places is appropriate, and one where you want to send a letter or parcel there, for which an address focusing on the delivery route may be best. If you want to send an electronic communication, an address referring to a domain name is the business; for a phone message, an address working off the telephone exchange (country code:area code:line number) is the way to go. And so forth.

For property tax and similar purposes, strictly speaking an address isn't required at all; the tax authorities hope never to have to go to your property. What is needed is a description which will identify the property, and distinguish it from all other properties. That may coincide with the location address, but it could equally be, e.g., a Land Registry folio number.

Peregrinus, realistically, when the disparity in address is in the county, I don't think it is workable in the long term. I use both my married and maiden name separately, and combined, and tbh now I mostly combine as it is complicated enough juggling between one and the other. The clash in postal vs geographical counties is a hassle, and since a lot of services are county based, the more prevalent the use of Eircodes (and appended postal address), the more hassle it's going to be.

I think too that change sometimes has to happen, it's inevitable, but economics vs cultural/historical interests should be a matter for consultation and discussion with people. At the moment with Eircodes, it seems that commercial interests have completely taken over.

Interestingly, the majority have never engaged, or have even disengaged with Eircodes since their introduction, in my experience. Imo it is a reflection on the poor design, and lack of consideration given to the human element.

How we function and identify in our environment is more important to people than what Eircode seems to have envisaged.
Specifically in Ireland, counties and towns matter a lot to people.

ukoda wrote: »

This is completely untrue. I've told you this many times.

An Post have been enforcing their postal addresses on people for years, long before eircode ever existed. They even went to court to get the right to do it.

It is totally inaccurate for you to claim "they got on with it regardless of address". They did not. They put the same "delayed because of incorrect address" labels on mail long before eircode existed.

I believe you have a valid point to make that eircode adoption may lead to more use of your postal address versus your geographical address. But please don't make false claims.

Excuse me Ukoda, I was talking to an An Post customer service guy a week ago who very plainly explained that the Via in my address was an extra precision, and that it wasn't a big deal if it wasn't on post addressed to me. He also said post may just take a little longer without it, with or without delay stickers.

It is the second instance people are claiming I am making up things.
Ukoda I clearly demonstrated on here the first time around that my geodirectory address differed from my postal address, with people claiming I was speaking untruths. I haven't recorded my conversation with this guy last week so you'll simply have to take my word for it, and maybe question your categorical opinions for what they are : opinions.

Your arguments have mostly been based on semantics, just like the Eircode explanations : "well actually, Eircode are not changing your address because your old address is still there, somewhere in the ether, and you are absolutely entitled to hum it to yourself".

These are semantics and palaver, and just as poor as the false claims you are falsely claiming I'm guilty of.

I just think it's right readers of the thread should be made aware of this, and I won't argue anymore on it. People can read back and decide for themselves, or ring An Post for their own confirmation on the subject.

Edit : in fact I was pretty annoyed since I was telling him about the stickers and delays, and he was telling me that it shouldn't matter and not to worry about it. Some workers have obviously differing opinions, and are able to delay my post, coincidentally (according to you) since this summer, but never before in 12 years.

I meant to ask if the Eircode on envelope would make a difference since I was ringing about a specific parcel with Eircode on it for sure, but I forgot. Eircode is purely useless here since parcel is still missing altogether, and I know it has been traced to Ireland, so there's an example of a parcel with full address and Eircode, undelivered.

joujoujou wrote: »

Semantics. :P

You mean when I point out that the word "address" refers to directions or guidance, and point out why it means that and how it came to have that meaning, that's semantics, but when you say that the word "address" means location, offering no evidence or justification for this claim, that's an eternal and imperishable truth, before which we must all bow, because joujoujou has spoken?

Right, got it. Carry on. :rolleyes:

ukoda wrote: »

so the An Post guy told you exactly what I'm telling you...they can and will delay your mail if their postal address isn't on it. And it had nothing to do with eircode. Yet you some how get confused in your head that this is different to what I'm telling you?

And you still haven't grasped the concept of what the Geodirectory is.

"My geodirectory address is different from my postal address" how many times do you have to be told that the geodirectory has ALL your addresses. Postal and geographic and any other known alias.

I actually give up. You are beyond reasoning.

What I'm telling you is NOT opinion. Here's an article from 3 years ago where An Post won the right to make people use their postal address. Again. Long before eircode ever existed.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/high-court-rules-post-can-be-delivered-only-to-postal-address-28817426.html

The An Post guy was telling me that my post would get there "regardless", exactly as I stated above, again it is semantics and you are unable to view it from the other side.

Again semantics 're geodirectory, they DO hold my geographical address, which is different to my postal address.

They can hold 10 aliases if you like, more than likely subsequent add ons to OSI/census/electoral historical data.


It does not negate the fact that the geographical address assigned to my property AS PER OSI and every geopolitical, historical map you can dig out other than postal is in one county while the single Eircode is in another.

Semantics.

Postal addresses were an add on to pre existing addresses, you seem to have a problem acknowledging that.

Peregrinus wrote: »

You mean when I point out that the word "address" refers to directions or guidance, and point out why it means that and how it came to have that meaning, that's semantics, but when you say that the word "address" means location, offering no evidence or justification for this claim, that's an eternal and imperishable truth, before which we must all bow, because joujoujou has spoken?

Right, got it. Carry on. :rolleyes:

Not really.

In fact, this thread is only about (so called) postal address vs. true address. All the rest is irrelevant.

ukoda wrote: »

so the An Post guy told you exactly what I'm telling you...they can and will delay your mail if their postal address isn't on it. And it had nothing to do with eircode. Yet you some how get confused in your head that this is different to what I'm telling you?

And you still haven't grasped the concept of what the Geodirectory is.

"My geodirectory address is different from my postal address" how many times do you have to be told that the geodirectory has ALL your addresses. Postal and geographic and any other known alias.

I actually give up. You are beyond reasoning.

What I'm telling you is NOT opinion. Here's an article from 3 years ago where An Post won the right to make people use their postal address. Again. Long before eircode ever existed.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/high-court-rules-post-can-be-delivered-only-to-postal-address-28817426.html

It's worth quoting from that article:

In his judgment Mr Justice Hedigan said that An Post "has a complex web of delivery routes" to fulfill its obligations as "Ireland's' designated Service Provider". It has designated post distribution centres, called post towns, close to delivery points.


An Post's system means that customers in rural areas are served their mail via a post town that can be located some miles from their exact geographical location. In order to ensure a quick delivery some people have postal addresses different to their actual geographical location. There are many examples of this in Ireland, the judge noted.


This use of the postal address is an "essential part of An Post's delivery web," which he said seemed to be accepted by the State and the EU.


"The concept of a postal address is and has been since the foundation of the state, and long before, a well known and accepted reality." he said. The system An Post uses to deliver post "cannot in all cases mirror the precise geographic location of a particular house, " he added.


If people wished to use An Post's postal services it was necessary for them to use the name of the postal town from which mail will be distributed. While it maybe "an irritant to some customers" the inconvenience was outweighed by the benefit of how An Post delivers post.

Ukoda you are so entrenched in your mindset that you cannot envisage another view point at all.

Please remember that I am not opposed to Eircodes, and have no objection to using An Post original postal address.

My entire conundrum arose when Eircode crystallized an issue : up until the introduction of Eircodes, I was able to receive post to my geographical address, with the addition of Via Postal town. (And without the Via too, but let's let this go).
That's what my postal address used to be.
Since the introduction of Eircodes, some An Post workers (it's inconsistent, so not all) are requiring me to amend the county, to match the postal town.

This was not an issue before this summer. I take it that people in Athlone know where my postal town is located (they have admirably demonstrated so for 12 years) so the fact that my geographical county is on the address is not an issue.

Or was not, until ... this summer.

The post issue is only one inconvenience for me, and not a big one really, or should not be, since I am very willing to use the Eircode. The issue here is more with An Post's perplexing delay in officially adopting it. If for operational reasons it is more economical to use the complete postal address, then it stands to reason that after a calibrating of sorting machines, Eircodes would save even more.

Incidentally I received a number of parcels with my geographical county, the Via town, and Eircode with no delays over the last week, today's came all the way from Japan.

The major issue I have is a more cultural/historical one, where a broader adoption of Eircodes will lead, imo, to a broader use of postal addresses, in turn paving the way for a redefinition of county borders. In time. Because I think it unlikely that governmental and private agencies happily juggle indefinitely between customers geographical, and postal addresses. Especially when counties differ (not just spellings).

France are in the process of amalgamation as regards regions, and even departements. However, while criticism is ripe on the process, this was a publicized initiative, not something that was let happen quietly over time without the opportunity for people to intervene. It has been part of the political debate at national, and local levels. Now that the new law has been passed, the new debate will take place, after regional elections, on renaming of new regions.

Perhaps there would be less objections to new projects were Irish people to be included in the debate.

Sharp criticism is normal and will happen, but progress will too, with adjustments.

If it is more economical for Ireland to review and redefine counties then let the discussions start.

At the moment it seems that wide adoption of Eircodes is expected to effect the change in a haphazard and undeclared manner.

ukoda wrote: »

I'm entrenched in my mindset?! I think you need to have a read back over our conversations. I don't have a mindset. I have a set of facts I put forward.

You also seem to fail to acknowledge that I actually agree with you about the use of geographical addresses. Like I say, what are you actually arguing with me about? Seriously? Because I agree with your concerns, I said that about 3 times now. What mindset am I entrenched in??

The only thing I've done is put forwarded facts and corrected factually inaccurate statements you've made. That is all.

a) I have 2 addresses. Eircode uses one address only, postal. At some stage recently, when postal addresses were transferred to Eircode, the county in my postal address has been amended to the postal town county. My address has changed as a result to a Via Town + new county address. I reckon Eircode has effected a change of address for me, you reckon it hasn't, because there is a shadow database with my original county kept somewhere.

b) postal services started sporadically delaying my post because of "wrong address" shortly after introduction of Eircode. I make the link, and it's obvious to me that the development is due to Eircodes new address for me (antecedent : 12 years botherless service). You think this is coincidental and An Post workers had planned for years to amend practice, just came round to it this summer.

ukoda wrote: »

A) you've admitted yourself that it's only some an post workers and not others, yet you still claim it's some conspiracy

No, actual postal address online record used to be via town + my county, it is now via town + town's county. Separately from actual routing issues.

I've proven to you by way of evidence from a high court ruling, that An Post started imposing their version of addresses on people since 2011.

[/QUOTE]

Must not be very intensive for them to take 4 years to reach me. Simultaneous to Eircodes being rolled out.

This high court ruling was not that clear cut by the way. It just so happens that this particular judge thought it was a small inconvenience rather than the culturally/historically significant change ComReg thought it was.

Like I said the debate should be out in the open, and such discussions should be pre-empted, rather than waiting and leaving it all to the justice system to decide.

The judge decided that commercial interests supersede cultural/historical ones. I don't think it's right that this should be left to a judge to decide.

I think this illustrates the manner in which a significant geopolitical change is forced on people, with no input from the public.

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The ruling was very clear. An Post may continue to use postal addresse. The judge's decision has legal authority. ComReg's opinion has none.



[...]

Does that mean An Post are allowed to enforce people to use so-called postal addresses? Not the ones people's houses are located at (in terms of geographical location)? Genuine question.

Personally I don't care what An Post (and other couriers) are going to use as long as I don't have to keep a number of addresses for them. Happily had no problems with An Post yet. Nor other couriers.

I live in remote area (in the middle of nowhere I'd say). Let's say An Post are annoying me (through their "wrong address" sticker) to amend my so-called postal address to go "via Sometown". Second address to remember (real, geographic address being the first one). Let's say other couriers would start doing the same thing - reality is, I buy alot of stuff online, all delivered by An Post or others. And reality is, couriers depots are nowhere near each other.

Pure facts: one courier has "my" local depot in Sligo (third address). One in Athlone (fourth address). One in Roscommon (fifth address) and one in Galway (sixth address). If I omitted any of couriers delivering stuff for me, please accept my apologies.

I know, it'd rather never happen to go so bad, but that's how entire thing would escalate. And now, you have to know what courier would other end of supply chain use, and (if foreign courier with no Irish branch) what courier here delivers on their behalf - all that to know which postal (pff...) address should be provided to have successful delivery.

Eircode, maybe, will sort that out one day, but not in a foreseeable future IMO (I hope I'm wrong). I spoke a lot to lads delivering stuff for me, and only ONE of them used eircode to locate me. And it was his own initiative - he used his private mobile + eircode finder + his own sat nav phone app to locate me.

Political issue does not equate referendum.

Right now in France there are regional elections, where people have been voting for representatives who proposed solutions and arrangements related to the reshaping and renaming of regions and departements. This is phase 2, implementation; debate about the amalgamation of regions has been ongoing for the past 2 years or so I think.

I don't see the point in arguing any longer, some time in the future the issue of postal addresses, geographical boundaries will more than likely arise again.

Maybe I am making a mountain of a molehill, or maybe I just look a little further than the immediate future.

It's great for you that you don't care.

Note : Of course writing the wrong county is not a massive issue. Of course there would no need for me to do so, if only Eircodes were used by the one obvious agency Eircode developers should have got on board from the start.