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Geographic addresses vs Postal addresses

  • 30-11-2015 2:46pm
    #1
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    The ' National Postcodes to be introduced' thread has been closed because it has run its course.

    Three new threads are being started as suggested in the above thread. This is one of them.

    This thread is for discussing Geographical addresses vs Postal addresses (as interpreted by An Post). This would include solving the non-unique address problem.

    This thread is just for developing ideas on postcode design as it pertains to Ireland. It is not for slagging off Eircode.

    The third thread is for discussing the implentation of Eircode and how well its uptake is going. This will be merged with the 'An Post not using Eircode' thread.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭ marmurr1916


    Postal addresses that don't coincide with geographical addresses are pretty rare and most of those that exist have been in use for decades, sometimes since the 19th century. If it wasn't an issue pre-Eircodes, I don't see why it should be an issue now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    Townland,
    Barony,
    County

    Should resolve to unique townlands. I'd imagine the brits saw to this anglicising the townland names.

    Then your philosophical issues arise.

    I'd go road number.distance from the start of the road.

    For rural addresses.

    For suburban/urban addresses, I'd make the OS look after road naming, and publish new road names as part of planning approval/commencement notice giving.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    I suggested on the old thread, giving (or allowing to choose) each house a name - a bit like email addresses - on a first come fist served. Obviously there would have to be some level of arbitration to stop duplicates/rude/near copies etc.

    So you would have:

    House name,
    Townland,
    Barony,
    County.

    For example:

    Browns
    Gofor Upper,
    Ballybegmore,
    County Lessermore.

    This could be implemented quickly and easily, but would need a central arbiter like the revenue or the planning depts.

    When street names are added, numbers are then distance based.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,106 ✭✭✭✭ joujoujou


    In my opinion, there's NO such thing like geographical vs. postal address. :p

    Why?

    Because one's address "describes" (cutting long story short) the place one lives in and nobody should accept any exceptions.

    Say, here's an example of geographical address:

    Joe Average (name)
    Durrty House (house name)
    Cloudymeadow (townland)
    Ballymuddy (barony)
    co. Somewhere.

    But, An Post are insisting Joe he has to use so-called "postal address" which is convenient for An Post's routing thing:

    Joe Average
    Durrty House
    Rainfield
    Puddletown
    co. Nearford.

    Now, Joe's buddy, Rick, rings him:

    R: Joe, what's your address?
    J: If you're gonna visit me, it's Durrty House, Cloudymeadow, Ballymuddy, co. Somewhere. But if you're gonna send me a letter, DON'T USE THAT ONE! Send it to Durrty House, Rainfield, Puddletown, co. Nearford.
    R: Thanks Joe, bye.

    facepalm.gif

    Utter nonsense!

    If An Post are struggling with deliveries to someone's home address due to their complicated routing issues, IT'S THEIR PROBLEM! They're paid for proper and on-time mail delivery. End of story.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭ plodder


    It's a problem now, because we were told that Eircode would solve this problem and we saw an example last week of how it's not such a simple matter (the electoral register).

    Local authorities use one set of addresses in the electoral register that aren't the same as the ones in the Eircode database. That means in many cases, typing your Eircode into the checktheregister web page, won't find your entry on the electoral register because the addresses might not match. It seems to be a particular problem in rural areas.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    I have a legal address - that is the address in my deeds. That is my geographical address.

    Now, pursuant to a High Court decision, An Post cam modify this to make delivery of mail easier for them.

    Perhaps DHL or some other parcel delivery could give me a delivery code that they want to use.

    Only my legal address has any real validity, and is used by Revenue to tax me for LPT.

    What is needed is a proper Government led solution to this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,106 ✭✭✭✭ joujoujou


    I have a legal address - that is the address in my deeds. That is my geographical address.
    And that's the only address you have to be aware of.
    Now, pursuant to a High Court decision, An Post cam modify this to make delivery of mail easier for them.

    Perhaps DHL or some other parcel delivery could give me a delivery code that they want to use.
    If they want to, let them use it. Say their own, internal database translating geographical address to the one more convenient for their needs. Once again - their problems are theirs, not ours, and they're paid for solving their problems by themselves. If they can't, it'd maybe better if they stop delivering mail and start selling carrots, for example.
    Only my legal address has any real validity, and is used by Revenue to tax me for LPT.

    What is needed is a proper Government led solution to this.
    Amen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭ Jakey Rolling


    plodder wrote: »
    It's a problem now, because we were told that Eircode would solve this problem and we saw an example last week of how it's not such a simple matter (the electoral register).

    Local authorities use one set of addresses in the electoral register that aren't the same as the ones in the Eircode database. That means in many cases, typing your Eircode into the checktheregister web page, won't find your entry on the electoral register because the addresses might not match. It seems to be a particular problem in rural areas.

    Just checked that, and it is indeed the case for myself.
    SNAFU


  • Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭ Jakey Rolling


    I have a legal address - that is the address in my deeds. That is my geographical address.

    Now, pursuant to a High Court decision, An Post cam modify this to make delivery of mail easier for them.

    Perhaps DHL or some other parcel delivery could give me a delivery code that they want to use.

    Only my legal address has any real validity, and is used by Revenue to tax me for LPT.

    What is needed is a proper Government led solution to this.

    Have that problem ourselves.

    We are half way between two neighbours who get post delivered from different sorting offices. The correct address according to our legal deeds, council planners and electoral register states Office A.

    An Post have decided it suits them to deliver from Office B, so this is the address we must use day to day if we want stuff delivered on time.

    Eircode uses the An Post version of our address


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭ marmurr1916


    I suggested on the old thread, giving (or allowing to choose) each house a name - a bit like email addresses - on a first come fist served. Obviously there would have to be some level of arbitration to stop duplicates/rude/near copies etc.

    So you would have:

    House name,
    Townland,
    Barony,
    County.

    For example:

    Browns
    Gofor Upper,
    Ballybegmore,
    County Lessermore.

    This could be implemented quickly and easily, but would need a central arbiter like the revenue or the planning depts.

    When street names are added, numbers are then distance based.

    Obviously. Because everyone in Ireland is entirely reasonable and more than willing to obey the directions of a central state agency.

    That's why there's been absolutely no resistance to Irish Water... :P


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,692 ✭✭✭ Mountainsandh


    Postal addresses that don't coincide with geographical addresses are pretty rare and most of those that exist have been in use for decades, sometimes since the 19th century. If it wasn't an issue pre-Eircodes, I don't see why it should be an issue now.

    Before Eircodes the issue was postal/delivery of mail only, and An Post just got on with it and did their job regardless of address.

    The open intent to allocate Eircodes as addresses of reference for all major governmental agencies means that the postal address is set to become a primary address.

    Some argue that the geographical address may remain, unchanged, in the background.
    I would argue that it is unlikely State bodies + commercial entities will long accommodate a double, potentially confusing database of addresses, therefore the geographical address is on the way out in favour of postal address.

    I think it is an underhanded and chaotic way to bring about change.

    I have experienced the "chaos" since An Post seem to have internal tensions re_eircodes, with some post workers seemingly adapting and making use of the extra bit of information, and others insisting on the exact postal address only being used.

    In my case a definitive change to postal address would mean a redefining of county borders, and a change of county, which I think is culturally significant enough to warrant discussion with people concerned.


  • Registered Users Posts: 896 ✭✭✭ medoc


    Sorry to jump in here but I've been following this subject for a while. If Eircode was made compulsory or at least An Post were to use it then would it not "solve" this issue. Once the Eircode is on the letter then An Post can route it to whatever office they like irrespective of the address written on the letter. People could then use their address with the local town and county. Doon in County Offaly for example and An Post using the Eircode route it via Athlone in Westmeath. No need then to put labels on the front advising the postal address


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,323 ✭✭✭✭ Peregrinus


    If a person can have two or more names - and they can, both legally and as a matter of practice - then I see no fundamental problem with a location having two or more addresses.

    "Address" doesn't mean where a place is located; it means how you approach the place. And you can quite reasonably have different addresses for different kinds of approach - one where you want to go there physically, in which case an address describing the location of the property relative to other places is appropriate, and one where you want to send a letter or parcel there, for which an address focusing on the delivery route may be best. If you want to send an electronic communication, an address referring to a domain name is the business; for a phone message, an address working off the telephone exchange (country code:area code:line number) is the way to go. And so forth.

    For property tax and similar purposes, strictly speaking an address isn't required at all; the tax authorities hope never to have to go to your property. What is needed is a description which will identify the property, and distinguish it from all other properties. That may coincide with the location address, but it could equally be, e.g., a Land Registry folio number.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,106 ✭✭✭✭ joujoujou


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    [...]

    "Address" doesn't mean where a place is located;
    Wrong. It does exactly mean where the place is located.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    it means how you approach the place.
    That's called "directions". :p
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    And you can quite reasonably have different addresses for different kinds of approach - one where you want to go there physically, in which case an address describing the location of the property relative to other places is appropriate, and one where you want to send a letter or parcel there, for which an address focusing on the delivery route may be best.
    No, no, no, no. One more time: Address describes location and it can be (and should be) totally unrelated to directions one has to go to get there.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    If you want to send an electronic communication, an address referring to a domain name is the business; for a phone message, an address working off the telephone exchange (country code:area code:line number) is the way to go. And so forth.

    [...]
    And that's fine as none of above refer to a physical place - one can access email from any place in the world, phone number can be moved elsewhere without need to change. Once physical address is assigned to a dwelling, it has to be permanent and unchangeable whatsoever.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,106 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    Obviously. Because everyone in Ireland is entirely reasonable and more than willing to obey the directions of a central state agency.

    That's why there's been absolutely no resistance to Irish Water... :P

    This could be done on a trial basis in one county - say County Clare.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,323 ✭✭✭✭ Peregrinus


    joujoujou wrote: »
    Wrong. It does exactly mean where the place is located. That's called "directions". :p No, no, no, no. One more time: Address describes location and it can be (and should be) totally unrelated to directions one has to go to get there.
    No, "address" refers to an approach. A lawyer addresses the court; do you imagine that has anything to do with the location of the courtroom? The address on a letter tells you place where the letter is supposed to go. An e-mail address tells you the (virtual) place where the e-mail will go. The English word to describe the concept of physical location is, unsurprisingly, "location"; we don't use the word "locate" to refer to addressing a court or an envelope, and for good reason.

    The word English word "address" comes from the Old French adrecier, meaning to guide, direct or set right, which in turn comes from the Latin directus, which means straight or right. It has everything to do with directions, and in fact what we call the "address" on an envelope used to be called the "direction".

    The "address" of any land means directions as to how to get there. It may or may not tell you something about the location. I can address a letter to John Smith, PO Box 123, Blackrock, County Dublin, and it will be delivered if he has made the appropriate arrangements. That's a valid address, but it gives me no real clue as to where he is.

    By contrast, if you check your title deeds or land registry documents you'll find no part of them is described as an "address"; there'll be a "location" or "description" of the property. The only "address" on the documents will be the address of the registered owner, who may of course live at a completely different place, and that's included in case the authorities need to communicate with the owner by, e.g., sending him a letter.
    joujoujou wrote: »
    And that's fine as none of above refer to a physical place - one can access email from any place in the world, phone number can be moved elsewhere without need to change. Once physical address is assigned to a dwelling, it has to be permanent and unchangeable whatsoever.
    The very fact that we use the word "address" to refer to virtual places, locations in computer memory, and other concepts that have no physical location should tell you that, fundamentally, the concept of address does not refer to physical location. It refers to directions for approach, and physical location is only one possible basis for such directions.

    As for adresses, even those which refer to location, being "permanent and unchangeable whatsoever", that's ridiculous, and common experience tells you so. Streets can be renamed, houses can be renamed or renumbered or both, and there's slew of properties which used have addresses in Dollymount but now have addresses in Raheny or Clontarf, even though their physical location is completely unchanged.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,106 ✭✭✭✭ joujoujou


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    No, "address" refers to an approach. A lawyer addresses the court; do you imagine that has anything to do with the location of the courtroom?
    Semantics. :P
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The address on a letter tells you place where the letter is supposed to go.
    Thank you. You just confirmed my point - WHERE the letter has to go. Not HOW.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    An e-mail address tells you the (virtual) place where the e-mail will go.
    I thought we're talking about physical addresses here, aren't we? ;)
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The English word to describe the concept of physical location is, unsurprisingly, "location"; we don't use the word "locate" to refer to addressing a court or an envelope, and for good reason.

    The word English word "address" comes from the Old French adrecier, meaning to guide, direct or set right, which in turn comes from the Latin directus, which means straight or right.
    Semantics, again.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    It has everything to do with directions, and in fact what we call the "address" on an envelope used to be called the "direction".
    What used to be called does not have to be understood the same way nowadays.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The "address" of any land means directions as to how to get there. It may or may not tell you something about the location.
    Not at all. Address refers to a location.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I can address a letter to John Smith, PO Box 123, Blackrock, County Dublin, and it will be delivered if he has made the appropriate arrangements. That's a valid address, but it gives me no real clue as to where he is.
    It's not John Smith's address, nobody would be able to visit John Smith over there and it's highly unlikely John Smith would fit into that box himself. It's just his PO Box at the moment, nothing else.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    By contrast, if you check your title deeds or land registry documents you'll find no part of them is described as an "address"; there'll be a "location" or "description" of the property. The only "address" on the documents will be the address of the registered owner, who may of course live at a completely different place, and that's included in case the authorities need to communicate with the owner by, e.g., sending him a letter.
    Only because no post would be delivered to an empty land. If there's a dwelling (occupied) on it, the dwelling will have it's own address. And, for obvious reasons landowner's address could still be different.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The very fact that we use the word "address" to refer to virtual places, locations in computer memory, and other concepts that have no physical location should tell you that, fundamentally, the concept of address does not refer to physical location. It refers to directions for approach, and physical location is only one possible basis for such directions.
    Yet another semantic thing. And yet another reason I call "address" my physical address I live in ONLY. My email address is NOT my address - it's my email address. And so on.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    As for adresses, even those which refer to location, being "permanent and unchangeable whatsoever", that's ridiculous, and common experience tells you so. Streets can be renamed, houses can be renamed or renumbered or both, and there's slew of properties which used have addresses in Dollymount but now have addresses in Raheny or Clontarf, even though their physical location is completely unchanged.

    Yes, that's true. Streets can be renamed, towns/townlands/counties, even whole countries can. But as long as they're not, no one will tell me my address has to change, because he said so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,692 ✭✭✭ Mountainsandh


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    If a person can have two or more names - and they can, both legally and as a matter of practice - then I see no fundamental problem with a location having two or more addresses.

    "Address" doesn't mean where a place is located; it means how you approach the place. And you can quite reasonably have different addresses for different kinds of approach - one where you want to go there physically, in which case an address describing the location of the property relative to other places is appropriate, and one where you want to send a letter or parcel there, for which an address focusing on the delivery route may be best. If you want to send an electronic communication, an address referring to a domain name is the business; for a phone message, an address working off the telephone exchange (country code:area code:line number) is the way to go. And so forth.

    For property tax and similar purposes, strictly speaking an address isn't required at all; the tax authorities hope never to have to go to your property. What is needed is a description which will identify the property, and distinguish it from all other properties. That may coincide with the location address, but it could equally be, e.g., a Land Registry folio number.

    Peregrinus, realistically, when the disparity in address is in the county, I don't think it is workable in the long term. I use both my married and maiden name separately, and combined, and tbh now I mostly combine as it is complicated enough juggling between one and the other. The clash in postal vs geographical counties is a hassle, and since a lot of services are county based, the more prevalent the use of Eircodes (and appended postal address), the more hassle it's going to be.

    I think too that change sometimes has to happen, it's inevitable, but economics vs cultural/historical interests should be a matter for consultation and discussion with people. At the moment with Eircodes, it seems that commercial interests have completely taken over.

    Interestingly, the majority have never engaged, or have even disengaged with Eircodes since their introduction, in my experience. Imo it is a reflection on the poor design, and lack of consideration given to the human element.

    How we function and identify in our environment is more important to people than what Eircode seems to have envisaged.
    Specifically in Ireland, counties and towns matter a lot to people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ukoda


    Before Eircodes the issue was postal/delivery of mail only, and An Post just got on with it and did their job regardless of address.

    This is completely untrue. I've told you this many times.

    An Post have been enforcing their postal addresses on people for years, long before eircode ever existed. They even went to court to get the right to do it.

    It is totally inaccurate for you to claim "they got on with it regardless of address". They did not. They put the same "delayed because of incorrect address" labels on mail long before eircode existed.

    I believe you have a valid point to make that eircode adoption may lead to more use of your postal address versus your geographical address. But please don't make false claims.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,692 ✭✭✭ Mountainsandh


    ukoda wrote: »
    This is completely untrue. I've told you this many times.

    An Post have been enforcing their postal addresses on people for years, long before eircode ever existed. They even went to court to get the right to do it.

    It is totally inaccurate for you to claim "they got on with it regardless of address". They did not. They put the same "delayed because of incorrect address" labels on mail long before eircode existed.

    I believe you have a valid point to make that eircode adoption may lead to more use of your postal address versus your geographical address. But please don't make false claims.

    Excuse me Ukoda, I was talking to an An Post customer service guy a week ago who very plainly explained that the Via in my address was an extra precision, and that it wasn't a big deal if it wasn't on post addressed to me. He also said post may just take a little longer without it, with or without delay stickers.

    It is the second instance people are claiming I am making up things.
    Ukoda I clearly demonstrated on here the first time around that my geodirectory address differed from my postal address, with people claiming I was speaking untruths. I haven't recorded my conversation with this guy last week so you'll simply have to take my word for it, and maybe question your categorical opinions for what they are : opinions.

    Your arguments have mostly been based on semantics, just like the Eircode explanations : "well actually, Eircode are not changing your address because your old address is still there, somewhere in the ether, and you are absolutely entitled to hum it to yourself".

    These are semantics and palaver, and just as poor as the false claims you are falsely claiming I'm guilty of.

    I just think it's right readers of the thread should be made aware of this, and I won't argue anymore on it. People can read back and decide for themselves, or ring An Post for their own confirmation on the subject.

    Edit : in fact I was pretty annoyed since I was telling him about the stickers and delays, and he was telling me that it shouldn't matter and not to worry about it. Some workers have obviously differing opinions, and are able to delay my post, coincidentally (according to you) since this summer, but never before in 12 years.

    I meant to ask if the Eircode on envelope would make a difference since I was ringing about a specific parcel with Eircode on it for sure, but I forgot. Eircode is purely useless here since parcel is still missing altogether, and I know it has been traced to Ireland, so there's an example of a parcel with full address and Eircode, undelivered.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,323 ✭✭✭✭ Peregrinus


    Peregrinus, realistically, when the disparity in address is in the county, I don't think it is workable in the long term . . .
    The optimal postal address system is the one that gets your letters delivered efficiently, obviously.

    Most national post offices take a pride in delivering letters, however badly addressed, so they get delivered eventually. But it's not just a matter of delay for badly-addressed letters; there's also the matter of additional expense of letters requiring extended or special handling, and that expense is shared among all users of the service, not just those who send or receive poorly-addressed letters. So, the more poorly-addressed letters are sent, the more expensive postage is for all users.

    And this does suggest that one important characteristic of a good address system is user engagement; the willingness of users to implement the system. We all know of the "Dublin 26" affairs some years back, when the opening of a new district delivery office led to the creation of a new Dublin postal district, carved out of Dublin 6, which was sequentially numbered "Dublin 26". Customer resistance based largely on snobbery led to the rapid renaming of the district as "Dublin 6W".

    We may laugh at the snobs, but from a purely utilitarian point of view the renaming decision was correct. If customers were reluctant to give out their addresses as "Dublin 26" and instead continued to use "Dublin 6" or not to include any district in their addresses, not only would their mail be delayed but additional costs would be imposed on all users of the postal service.

    And I think the same is true here. If in fact my house is served from the nearest delivery office, which is in the next county, a postal address which directs my mail via that county makes sense, in terms of efficient and speedy handling of mail. But if the customers' sense of local pride makes them, or a sufficient proportion of them, reluctant to use that address, then it makes less sense.

    In the end, it doesn't matter why customers are resistant to using the technically optimal address. It's a problem that they are resistant. It then become a pragmatic decision as to whether it makes more sense (i.e. costs less money in the long run) to try and overcome their resistance, or simply to switch to an address system which is technically suboptimal but which meets their expectations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,323 ✭✭✭✭ Peregrinus


    joujoujou wrote: »
    Semantics. :P
    You mean when I point out that the word "address" refers to directions or guidance, and point out why it means that and how it came to have that meaning, that's semantics, but when you say that the word "address" means location, offering no evidence or justification for this claim, that's an eternal and imperishable truth, before which we must all bow, because joujoujou has spoken?

    Right, got it. Carry on. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ukoda


    Excuse me Ukoda, I was talking to an An Post customer service guy a week ago who very plainly explained that the Via in my address was an extra precision, and that it wasn't a big deal if it wasn't on post addressed to me. He also said post may just take a little longer without it, with or without delay stickers.

    It is the second instance people are claiming I am making up things.
    Ukoda I clearly demonstrated on here the first time around that my geodirectory address differed from my postal address, with people claiming I was speaking untruths. I haven't recorded my conversation with this guy last week so you'll simply have to take my word for it, and maybe question your categorical opinions for what they are : opinions.

    Your arguments have mostly been based on semantics, just like the Eircode explanations : "well actually, Eircode are not changing your address because your old address is still there, somewhere in the ether, and you are absolutely entitled to hum it to yourself".

    These are semantics and palaver, and just as poor as the false claims you are falsely claiming I'm guilty of.

    I just think it's right readers of the thread should be made aware of this, and I won't argue anymore on it. People can read back and decide for themselves, or ring An Post for their own confirmation on the subject.

    Edit : in fact I was pretty annoyed since I was telling him about the stickers and delays, and he was telling me that it shouldn't matter and not to worry about it. Some workers have obviously differing opinions, and are able to delay my post, coincidentally (according to you) since this summer, but never before in 12 years.

    I meant to ask if the Eircode on envelope would make a difference since I was ringing about a specific parcel with Eircode on it for sure, but I forgot. Eircode is purely useless here since parcel is still missing altogether, and I know it has been traced to Ireland, so there's an example of a parcel with full address and Eircode, undelivered.

    so the An Post guy told you exactly what I'm telling you...they can and will delay your mail if their postal address isn't on it. And it had nothing to do with eircode. Yet you some how get confused in your head that this is different to what I'm telling you?

    And you still haven't grasped the concept of what the Geodirectory is.

    "My geodirectory address is different from my postal address" how many times do you have to be told that the geodirectory has ALL your addresses. Postal and geographic and any other known alias.

    I actually give up. You are beyond reasoning.

    What I'm telling you is NOT opinion. Here's an article from 3 years ago where An Post won the right to make people use their postal address. Again. Long before eircode ever existed.

    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/high-court-rules-post-can-be-delivered-only-to-postal-address-28817426.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,692 ✭✭✭ Mountainsandh


    ukoda wrote: »
    so the An Post guy told you exactly what I'm telling you...they can and will delay your mail if their postal address isn't on it. And it had nothing to do with eircode. Yet you some how get confused in your head that this is different to what I'm telling you?

    And you still haven't grasped the concept of what the Geodirectory is.

    "My geodirectory address is different from my postal address" how many times do you have to be told that the geodirectory has ALL your addresses. Postal and geographic and any other known alias.

    I actually give up. You are beyond reasoning.

    What I'm telling you is NOT opinion. Here's an article from 3 years ago where An Post won the right to make people use their postal address. Again. Long before eircode ever existed.

    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/high-court-rules-post-can-be-delivered-only-to-postal-address-28817426.html

    The An Post guy was telling me that my post would get there "regardless", exactly as I stated above, again it is semantics and you are unable to view it from the other side.

    Again semantics 're geodirectory, they DO hold my geographical address, which is different to my postal address.

    They can hold 10 aliases if you like, more than likely subsequent add ons to OSI/census/electoral historical data.


    It does not negate the fact that the geographical address assigned to my property AS PER OSI and every geopolitical, historical map you can dig out other than postal is in one county while the single Eircode is in another.

    Semantics.

    Postal addresses were an add on to pre existing addresses, you seem to have a problem acknowledging that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ukoda


    The An Post guy was telling me that my post would get there "regardless", exactly as I stated above, again it is semantics and you are unable to view it from the other side.

    Again semantics 're geodirectory, they DO hold my geographical address, which is different to my postal address.

    They can hold 10 aliases if you like, more than likely subsequent add ons to OSI/census/electoral historical data.


    It does not negate the fact that the geographical address assigned to my property AS PER OSI and every geopolitical, historical map you can dig out other than postal is in one county while the single Eircode is in another.

    Semantics.

    Postal addresses were an add on to pre existing addresses, you seem to have a problem acknowledging that.

    When did I ever say your mail wouldn't arrive at all? I never did.

    Where did I say postal addresses weren't an add on to geographical addresses. I never did.

    You're making up my argument in your head and not actually reading and understanding the points I'm making.

    I have acknowledged several times that I don't like the fact that their are 2 addresses. Where did I ever dispute that the postal address wasn't in your county? You're just arguing with me now for the sake of it even tho I'm actually agreeing with your concerns.

    The only point I'm making to you is as per above. An Post would be doing this regardless of eircode. As per the article I posted, they started back in 2011 a program of work to promote the use of postal addresses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,106 ✭✭✭✭ joujoujou


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    You mean when I point out that the word "address" refers to directions or guidance, and point out why it means that and how it came to have that meaning, that's semantics, but when you say that the word "address" means location, offering no evidence or justification for this claim, that's an eternal and imperishable truth, before which we must all bow, because joujoujou has spoken?

    Right, got it. Carry on. :rolleyes:
    Not really.

    In fact, this thread is only about (so called) postal address vs. true address. All the rest is irrelevant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭ marmurr1916


    This could be done on a trial basis in one county - say County Clare.

    There's been no resistance to water charges, or any other form of central authority from the state, in Co. Clare? :D

    One of the features of Eircodes is that their use is entirely voluntary. So even the crankiest feckers in Ireland, a country not short of cranky feckers, don't have any real excuse to get worked up about them.

    What you're proposing is the imposition nationally of a compulsory addition to existing addresses where no unique postal addresses exist (apart of course from the unique Eircodes assigned to each postal address) and you expect to encounter little or no resistance from the cranky fecker brigade? :eek:

    If you're going to come up with an alternative to the current postal address system, you'd want to come up with something that's better than that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭ marmurr1916


    ukoda wrote: »
    so the An Post guy told you exactly what I'm telling you...they can and will delay your mail if their postal address isn't on it. And it had nothing to do with eircode. Yet you some how get confused in your head that this is different to what I'm telling you?

    And you still haven't grasped the concept of what the Geodirectory is.

    "My geodirectory address is different from my postal address" how many times do you have to be told that the geodirectory has ALL your addresses. Postal and geographic and any other known alias.

    I actually give up. You are beyond reasoning.

    What I'm telling you is NOT opinion. Here's an article from 3 years ago where An Post won the right to make people use their postal address. Again. Long before eircode ever existed.

    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/high-court-rules-post-can-be-delivered-only-to-postal-address-28817426.html

    It's worth quoting from that article:
    In his judgment Mr Justice Hedigan said that An Post "has a complex web of delivery routes" to fulfill its obligations as "Ireland's' designated Service Provider". It has designated post distribution centres, called post towns, close to delivery points.


    An Post's system means that customers in rural areas are served their mail via a post town that can be located some miles from their exact geographical location. In order to ensure a quick delivery some people have postal addresses different to their actual geographical location. There are many examples of this in Ireland, the judge noted.


    This use of the postal address is an "essential part of An Post's delivery web," which he said seemed to be accepted by the State and the EU.


    "The concept of a postal address is and has been since the foundation of the state, and long before, a well known and accepted reality." he said. The system An Post uses to deliver post "cannot in all cases mirror the precise geographic location of a particular house, " he added.


    If people wished to use An Post's postal services it was necessary for them to use the name of the postal town from which mail will be distributed. While it maybe "an irritant to some customers" the inconvenience was outweighed by the benefit of how An Post delivers post.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭ clewbays


    The reality is that An Post can deliver post more efficiently if the address written on the item assists them to route it to the correct delivery office. It seems to me that a specific line beginning with the word Via would be a good compromise. The preferred address could be written first followed by the Via line (where necessary) and the Eircode e.g.

    Some Townland
    Roscommon
    Via Athlone
    X99 A1B1


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,692 ✭✭✭ Mountainsandh


    Ukoda you are so entrenched in your mindset that you cannot envisage another view point at all.

    Please remember that I am not opposed to Eircodes, and have no objection to using An Post original postal address.

    My entire conundrum arose when Eircode crystallized an issue : up until the introduction of Eircodes, I was able to receive post to my geographical address, with the addition of Via Postal town. (And without the Via too, but let's let this go).
    That's what my postal address used to be.
    Since the introduction of Eircodes, some An Post workers (it's inconsistent, so not all) are requiring me to amend the county, to match the postal town.

    This was not an issue before this summer. I take it that people in Athlone know where my postal town is located (they have admirably demonstrated so for 12 years) so the fact that my geographical county is on the address is not an issue.

    Or was not, until ... this summer.

    The post issue is only one inconvenience for me, and not a big one really, or should not be, since I am very willing to use the Eircode. The issue here is more with An Post's perplexing delay in officially adopting it. If for operational reasons it is more economical to use the complete postal address, then it stands to reason that after a calibrating of sorting machines, Eircodes would save even more.

    Incidentally I received a number of parcels with my geographical county, the Via town, and Eircode with no delays over the last week, today's came all the way from Japan.

    The major issue I have is a more cultural/historical one, where a broader adoption of Eircodes will lead, imo, to a broader use of postal addresses, in turn paving the way for a redefinition of county borders. In time. Because I think it unlikely that governmental and private agencies happily juggle indefinitely between customers geographical, and postal addresses. Especially when counties differ (not just spellings).

    France are in the process of amalgamation as regards regions, and even departements. However, while criticism is ripe on the process, this was a publicized initiative, not something that was let happen quietly over time without the opportunity for people to intervene. It has been part of the political debate at national, and local levels. Now that the new law has been passed, the new debate will take place, after regional elections, on renaming of new regions.

    Perhaps there would be less objections to new projects were Irish people to be included in the debate.

    Sharp criticism is normal and will happen, but progress will too, with adjustments.

    If it is more economical for Ireland to review and redefine counties then let the discussions start.

    At the moment it seems that wide adoption of Eircodes is expected to effect the change in a haphazard and undeclared manner.


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