Turkey shoots down Russian fighter plane

dubscottie · 26-11-2015 01:18AM

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

No they were not. I'm sorry but you just don't know what you're talking about.

.

And you do? Are you ex Russian airforce or something??

SafeSurfer · 26-11-2015 01:22AM

dubscottie wrote: »

How am I trolling? Just stating fact. And not state sponsored ones.

No I am not accusing anyone on the thread of trolling. Just stating that it would be naive to think that western powers don't fund trolls domestically and to encourage dissent abroad.

dubscottie · 26-11-2015 01:28AM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

No I am not accusing anyone on the thread of trolling. Just stating that it would be naive to think that western powers don't fund trolls domestically and to encourage dissent abroad.

If you want to see trolls.. Daily mail comments section. (the stuff Dave Gorman makes poems from).

All pro putin, all using the same phrases that you see here from some posters.

Almost word for word in fact.

I am glad Turkey shot down that plane..

It has put Putin in his place and its proof the Russian military is not the great power its made up to be.

If I was Putin I would be dying inside right now.. Feeling somewhat embarrassed!

BlaasForRafa · 26-11-2015 01:35AM

dubscottie wrote: »

They must have transponders on while flying in civil air lanes.

Civilian ATC cannot track an aircraft with its transponder off. Only the military can.

But military aircraft contact ATC if they are friendly.

Russian aircraft don't.

Look at the flight radar thread for an aircraft having to make a change of course while a "harmless" Russian plane sailed through the main corridor from the EU to North America..

They don't HAVE to have transponders turned on. And primary radar can track any aircraft that isn't stealthy, they just can't tell who they are or what type of aircraft it is. The Russian aircraft don't have to be friendly, they're testing Nato responses, it would be contrary to the whole exercise if they contacted ATC. The turning off of the transponder would affect TCAS but the Bears were flying by visual flight rules under the normal trans-atlantic flight levels.

I'm not even interested in "defending" the Russkies here, just trying to inject some facts to dispel the hysteria that gets generated by Bear intercepts in the British and Irish media.

dubscottie wrote: »

And you do? Are you ex Russian airforce or something??

You don't need to be ex airforce (or ex-russian) to know that a Tu-142 reconnaissance plane is not armed, except with 23mm cannon. You can choose not to believe me if you want but I am right.

MPFGLB · 26-11-2015 01:47AM

dubscottie wrote: »

If you want to see trolls.. Daily mail comments section. (the stuff Dave Gorman makes poems from).

All pro putin, all using the same phrases that you see here from some posters.

Almost word for word in fact.

I am glad Turkey shot down that plane..

It has put Putin in his place and its proof the Russian military is not the great power its made up to be.

If I was Putin I would be dying inside right now.. Feeling somewhat embarrassed!

You sound like you also belong on the Daily Mail comments section ...glad a plane is shot down (and pilots are killed)
Bullsh*t
No right minded person would glad about this potential world threatening situation

SafeSurfer · 26-11-2015 01:50AM

dubscottie wrote: »

If you want to see trolls.. Daily mail comments section. (the stuff Dave Gorman makes poems from).

All pro putin, all using the same phrases that you see here from some posters.

Almost word for word in fact.

I am glad Turkey shot down that plane..

It has put Putin in his place and its proof the Russian military is not the great power its made up to be.

If I was Putin I would be dying inside right now.. Feeling somewhat embarrassed!

If you read any comments section, on YouTube etc, it is full on idiots repeating mantras they have heard elsewhere. Be it anti muslim, pro Israeli, Russian or American. It doesn't necessarily mean they are an army of trolls.

Unlike you I am not glad that the Russian jet was shot down. A pilot was killed. While one more death in a conflict that has claimed a quarter of a million lives may seem insignificant I see it as a tragedy for his family and friends.
Having a jet shot down isn't going to "put manners" on Putin as you say. Russia has just lost almost twice the number killed in Paris to ISIS terrorists. There were no black arm bands at football matches for these fellow Europeans. No lighting up public buildings around the world in Russian colours. No flags at half mast in ireland for these victims.
The Russian plane that was shot down was no threat to Turkey. But the plane was obviously a threat to those under Turkish protection. Be they Turkmen or Isis or some other group.
What is clear is the preposterousness of the situation. Different powers pushing different agendas and using proxies to fight their dirty wars. At least the Rusdians are unambiguously there to support Assad. Unlike the countries involved in the ironically named "group of friends of the Syrian people", who engineered the conflict to advance their own strategic interests.

dubscottie · 26-11-2015 01:58AM

MPFGLB wrote: »

You sound like you also belong on the Daily Mail comments section ...glad a plane is shot down (and pilots are killed)
Bullsh*t
No right minded person would gald about this potential world threatening situation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

Did the US or Korea declare war after the USSR murdered 100's by shooting down a civilian Boeing 747??

dubscottie · 26-11-2015 01:59AM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Russia has just lost almost twice the number killed in Paris to ISIS terrorists.

I thought Russia stopped announcing war deaths? Where did you get these figures from?

Was looking at news sites. Nope Russia has not "just lost" any more than in Paris.

Russian airbus then Paris..

Paris has just lost half of what Russia lost in people. You need English lessons.

Gatling · 26-11-2015 02:08AM

dubscottie wrote: »

I thought Russia stopped announcing war deaths? Where did you get these figures from?

I believe he means the plane over Egypt

SafeSurfer · 26-11-2015 02:14AM

dubscottie wrote: »

I thought Russia stopped announcing war deaths? Where did you get these figures from?

Was looking at news sites. Nope Russia has not "just lost" any more than in Paris.

Russian airbus then Paris..

Paris has just lost half of what Russia lost in people. You need English lessons.

Pedantry is the last refuge of the witless.

SafeSurfer · 26-11-2015 02:15AM

dubscottie wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

Did the US or Korea declare war after the USSR murdered 100's by shooting down a civilian Boeing 747??

You should have checked when you had the Wiki page open.

InTheTrees · 26-11-2015 02:17AM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

At least the Rusdians are unambiguously there to support Assad. Unlike the countries involved in the ironically named "group of friends of the Syrian people", who engineered the conflict to advance their own strategic interests.

Assad (and in particular his father before him) and his regime were one of the worst in the middle east.

Isaiah · 26-11-2015 02:20AM

InTheTrees wrote: »

Assad (and in particular his father before him) and his regime were one of the worst in the middle east.

Yes but look at what Assad was keeping a lid on!

People need to wise up and see that these countries NEED brutal leaders.

The west removes one of them and 20 more hateful war lords spring up each one more extreme than the next.

Give Syria enough time, they will find another brutal leader to replace Assad and be happy for it.

dubscottie · 26-11-2015 02:41AM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You should have checked when you had the Wiki page open.

And why??

It was a spy plane.. I forgot.. Everything that comes out Russia is gospel..

I am sorry for doubting your version of events.

All Hail The USSR and mother Russia!

:rolleyes:

There is an aircraft in the UK you should buy..

Its reg is G-TWAT..

KomradeBishop · 26-11-2015 02:44AM

InTheTrees wrote: »

Assad (and in particular his father before him) and his regime were one of the worst in the middle east.

Completely unlike the Saudi, Israeli, or previous Egyption leaderships...

You might as well just pick the name of a random ME country out of a hat, and at least half the time, you'll come up with a repressive human-rights-abusing regime, supported either by Western or Sino-Russian interests.

Nobody meddling in the ME has a clean record, or any kind of moral authority.

agau · 26-11-2015 03:12AM

speedboatchase wrote: »

Change the headline to Turkey, rather than NATO.

The balls on Turkey, though. Planet-sized.

Had to make an account to say... rofl

K-9 · 26-11-2015 05:49AM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If you read any comments section, on YouTube etc, it is full on idiots repeating mantras they have heard elsewhere. Be it anti muslim, pro Israeli, Russian or American. It doesn't necessarily mean they are an army of trolls.

Unlike you I am not glad that the Russian jet was shot down. A pilot was killed. While one more death in a conflict that has claimed a quarter of a million lives may seem insignificant I see it as a tragedy for his family and friends.
Having a jet shot down isn't going to "put manners" on Putin as you say. Russia has just lost almost twice the number killed in Paris to ISIS terrorists. There were no black arm bands at football matches for these fellow Europeans. No lighting up public buildings around the world in Russian colours. No flags at half mast in ireland for these victims.
The Russian plane that was shot down was no threat to Turkey. But the plane was obviously a threat to those under Turkish protection. Be they Turkmen or Isis or some other group.
What is clear is the preposterousness of the situation. Different powers pushing different agendas and using proxies to fight their dirty wars. At least the Rusdians are unambiguously there to support Assad. Unlike the countries involved in the ironically named "group of friends of the Syrian people", who engineered the conflict to advance their own strategic interests.

It would be naive to ignore the state sponsored Russian trolls and propagandists and how organised it is, some of it seeps into people who are on that side of the debate.

But you are right it isn't just Russia, Israel deploys it as a tactic online too. Those would be the 2 obvious propaganda campaigns from my time modding plus proven by the likes of the Guardian and others.

You get the likes of the right wing American trolls and in Ireland very pro SF but I'd say most of that is just genuine ardent followers.

KomradeBishop · 26-11-2015 12:27PM

K-9 wrote: »

It would be naive to ignore the state sponsored Russian trolls and propagandists and how organised it is, some of it seeps into people who are on that side of the debate.

But you are right it isn't just Russia, Israel deploys it as a tactic online too. Those would be the 2 obvious propaganda campaigns from my time modding plus proven by the likes of the Guardian and others.

You get the likes of the right wing American trolls and in Ireland very pro SF but I'd say most of that is just genuine ardent followers.

Check out Tea Party astroturfing, and the gigantic labyrinthian network of think-tanks funded by the Koch's, and all the highly politicized topics they push funding into generating propaganda for - you won't find the desperate credibility-destroying propaganda the likes of Russia/Israel have put out, but there is a huge amount of money going into propaganda on economic/business/financial/regulatory areas of interest - by some of the richest oligarchs on the planet.

Sure, they will pick up some 'useful idiots' along the way, but you can suss out when people don't actually believe a word of what they're saying, through their quality of argument (when the deceptions they try to pull off are so facetious, it's obvious even they can't fail to miss it).

A lot of the above also benefits from a self-interested culture, where it's in peoples benefit to push certain industry-benefiting views, even if they completely don't believe them themselves - and where this kind of fraudulent mindset is actively useful in industry; you don't need directly-paid propagandists, when this is a way of getting-ahead in industry, and is a part of the culture - it's actually a useful way of flying your colours.

jmayo · 26-11-2015 01:49PM

dubscottie wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

Did the US or Korea declare war after the USSR murdered 100's by shooting down a civilian Boeing 747??

Did Iran declare war on US after this ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

I suppose they were still too busy fighting the friend of the US, one Mr Hussein.

BTW I watched interesting interview of ex CIA deputy chief on Bloomberg last night.

He believes the Russians and Americans are willing to reach deal where Assad stays until new government is formed which will not include him.
The Iranians want him to be able to run in those elections and the Saudis want him gone yesterday.
The guy mentioned how the idea would be to run the place like Lebannon and all parties, groups bar ISIS would be involved.

Anyway the real interesting thing in this interview was how they never mentioned how Turkey had been backing ISIS, especially when they started discussing how ISIS were selling their oil.
The guy even talked about the rules of engagement and not targetting tankers on humanitarian and environmental grounds, but these guys just kept linking only Assad to the oil sales. :rolleyes:

Really no wonder the population in the states haven't a fecking clue what is going on when their media, even the non Fox ones, are pedalling half truths.

Jelle1880 · 26-11-2015 02:00PM

jmayo wrote: »

Did Iran declare war on US after this ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

I suppose they were still too busy fighting the friend of the US, one Mr Hussein.

BTW I watched interesting interview of ex CIA deputy chief on Bloomberg last night.

He believes the Russians and Americans are willing to reach deal where Assad stays until new government is formed which will not include him.
The Iranians want him to be able to run in those elections and the Saudis want him gone yesterday.
The guy mentioned how the idea would be to run the place like Lebannon and all parties, groups bar ISIS would be involved.

Anyway the real interesting thing in this interview was how they never mentioned how Turkey had been backing ISIS, especially when they started discussing how ISIS were selling their oil.
The guy even talked about the rules of engagement and not targetting tankers on humanitarian and environmental grounds, but these guys just kept linking only Assad to the oil sales. :rolleyes:

Really no wonder the population in the states haven't a fecking clue what is going on when their media, even the non Fox ones, are pedalling half truths.

And what will happen once Assad makes it clear that he is actually not planning to leave after all ?

Or did he not think that far ?

jmayo · 26-11-2015 04:08PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

And what will happen once Assad makes it clear that he is actually not planning to leave after all ?

Or did he not think that far ?

He probably reckons Putin will lean on him a little and convince him to move to Moscow ?

Of course his little theory had some holes in it.

He reckoned the West should have to give nothing to Putin re Ukraine/Crimea in return for this small favour.

Of course he also suffers under delusion that there aren't fanatics there who will just win the elections and try and to a Muslim Brotherhood Egypt job on it.

Speaking of Egypt he does seem copped on enough to know they need to maintain Syria's army and state infrastructure for this to have any chance to work, otherwise you get Iraq/Libya.

K-9 · 26-11-2015 06:32PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Check out Tea Party astroturfing, and the gigantic labyrinthian network of think-tanks funded by the Koch's, and all the highly politicized topics they push funding into generating propaganda for - you won't find the desperate credibility-destroying propaganda the likes of Russia/Israel have put out, but there is a huge amount of money going into propaganda on economic/business/financial/regulatory areas of interest - by some of the richest oligarchs on the planet.

Sure, they will pick up some 'useful idiots' along the way, but you can suss out when people don't actually believe a word of what they're saying, through their quality of argument (when the deceptions they try to pull off are so facetious, it's obvious even they can't fail to miss it).

A lot of the above also benefits from a self-interested culture, where it's in peoples benefit to push certain industry-benefiting views, even if they completely don't believe them themselves - and where this kind of fraudulent mindset is actively useful in industry; you don't need directly-paid propagandists, when this is a way of getting-ahead in industry, and is a part of the culture - it's actually a useful way of flying your colours.

That tends to be more an American problem, not saying it doesn't happen here, but with boards in particular plenty wouldn't let them away with it!

Tbh the Russian bot type posters aren't a problem lately. About a year ago a few were about but they're pretty obvious anyway, so they've probably given up because it's a waste of time!

When I say a few, it probably was 1 poster who kept re-reging!

But really terms like shills are thrown around far too much, in political discussion especially. Ardent followers of all parties post on here and tbh, something would be wrong if they didn't! Plus the blickerdness of some can be hilarious at times, and I don't think any party has escaped followers defending the indefensible at some stage, sometimes you have to look on in awe at the beauty of it!

KomradeBishop · 27-11-2015 12:57AM

K-9 wrote: »

That tends to be more an American problem, not saying it doesn't happen here, but with boards in particular plenty wouldn't let them away with it!

Tbh the Russian bot type posters aren't a problem lately. About a year ago a few were about but they're pretty obvious anyway, so they've probably given up because it's a waste of time!

When I say a few, it probably was 1 poster who kept re-reging!

But really terms like shills are thrown around far too much, in political discussion especially. Ardent followers of all parties post on here and tbh, something would be wrong if they didn't! Plus the blickerdness of some can be hilarious at times, and I don't think any party has escaped followers defending the indefensible at some stage, sometimes you have to look on in awe at the beauty of it!

All true yes

Though the one thing I've noticed over the years - and it's very unique and not like the genuinely demented 'true believers' - are the posters who are more than intelligent enough, to see the faults in their own propaganda, yet still persist.

I'd love to believe it were just blinkeredness, but what I see is too specific for that - fairly like the talking points that a lobbyist from a think-tank would use, to promote a specific agenda.

The bot-like posters (like over Israel/Russian issues) are the obvious example of astroturfing, but I definitely think there's a much more refined and subtle type of astroturfing that goes on, for controlling narrative in other general topics.

It's a topic I'm very curious about really. There is a lot of precedent out there of all sorts of astroturfing/manipulation of social media, for propaganda purposes, but it's something that's very elusive, so it'd be very interesting to see real hard evidence outlining the extent of it.

We know what propaganda in news media looks like, what it looks like on TV/radio, and in politics etc., but now that the Internet and social media is playing an increasingly significant part in defining the public narrative, we don't yet have a well fleshed out empirical picture, of how different interests (within business/industry, not just politics) try to influence online narrative - and it's something I've been increasingly mindful/suspicious of, as I think the topics I tend to sail close to, are among those with a great enough political stake, that there'd be a lot of interest in controlling the narrative of such topics.

dubscottie · 27-11-2015 01:03AM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

All true yes Though the one thing I've noticed over the years - and it's very unique and not like the genuinely demented 'true believers' - are the posters who are more than intelligent enough, to see the faults in their own propaganda, yet still persist.

So that is all the pro Putin/pro Russia ones then..

They come and go.. But still posting the same Pro Russian propaganda.

Wizard! · 27-11-2015 10:08AM

I rest my case.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/26/russia-turkey-jet-mark-galeotti

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1127/749547-turkey-russia/

Yakkyda · 27-11-2015 03:44PM

[ If a party had someone of the calibre of a Trump or a Putin I'd vote, until then, I'll spoil my vote.[/quote]

Bahaha! Trump?!? That fcukin clown? Chap hasn't got clue. And Putin? Russias modern day dictator? Fine lads you look up to there.

As for spoiling your vote... Jesus, if you don't vote, please don't be whinging about the government as you purposely decided to not have a say in its election. Put up or shut up, run in the general election if you feel so strongly that nobody else is worthy of your vote.

Gatling · 27-11-2015 03:50PM

dubscottie wrote: »

So that is all the pro Putin/pro Russia ones then..

They come and go.. But still posting the same Pro Russian propaganda.

It never changes from AH,Politics cafe to the General Politics forum

FortySeven · 27-11-2015 03:53PM

dubscottie wrote: »

So that is all the pro Putin/pro Russia ones then..

They come and go.. But still posting the same Pro Russian propaganda.

I find it increasingly worrying the number of people who count RT as 'the troof' and disregard any other sensible reportage. Zerohedge is infested with these conspiracy nutjobs. It is a very worrying development.

RobertKK · 27-11-2015 04:18PM

Putin has accused Turkey of buying oil from ISIS.

Gatling · 27-11-2015 04:23PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Putin has accused Turkey of buying oil from ISIS.

Apparently it maybe true but it's ok for assad to buy oil and gas from isis with Putin's money

Turkey shoots down Russian fighter plane

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