Turkey shoots down Russian fighter plane

Irish Praetorian · 24-11-2015 09:20PM

The Sun King wrote: »

What worries me is the lack of common sense here. I read above that America claimed Russia was in the airspace for 17 seconds.

Were the Turks justified in shooting it down? Arguably.

Was it worth it and should they? No way.

17 seconds across a tiny strip of land is a stupid reason to blow 2 guys out of the sky, leading to at least one being shot to death on his way down.

Cooler heads should have prevailed, technicalities or otherwise

I'm largely inclined to agree, but given the pretty frequent nature of Russian airspace incursions in Turkey (and pretty much everywhere else near Russia) I wouldn't be surprised to learn if someone didn't somewhere down the line go 'enough is enough'. Still, I believe the more interesting question is, what happens the next time a Russian aircraft violates Turkish airspace?

LionelNashe · 24-11-2015 09:22PM

The Sun King wrote: »

What worries me is the lack of common sense here. I read above that America claimed Russia was in the airspace for 17 seconds.

Were the Turks justified in shooting it down? Arguably.

Was it worth it and should they? No way.

17 seconds across a tiny strip of land is a stupid reason to blow 2 guys out of the sky, leading to at least one being shot to death on his way down.

Cooler heads should have prevailed, technicalities or otherwise

I disagree. You can't give Putin an inch, or he'll see it as weakness. This is long overdue.

Eugene Norman · 24-11-2015 09:24PM

LionelNashe wrote: »

I don't know enough about Turkey to say if they lie blatantly, but Russia certainly does, based on the way they acted in Ukraine.

If Turkey show down this plane in retaliation for something, is it not more likely that it was retaliation for the bombing of Turkmen villages and moderate rebels than the bombing of ISIS?

Turkey is arming ISIS and "moderate" rebels.

The west needs to put Turkey on a leash.

Brianmeath · 24-11-2015 09:26PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Turkey is arming ISIS and "moderate" rebels.

The west needs to put Turkey on a leash.

For oil???
Russian been turkey's main supplier of oil

The Sun King · 24-11-2015 09:27PM

LionelNashe wrote: »

I disagree. You can't give Putin an inch, or he'll see it as weakness. This is long overdue.

Id rather give him the inch of air space than the mile that will be the consequences for shooting down the jet.

LionelNashe · 24-11-2015 09:28PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Turkey is arming ISIS and "moderate" rebels.

The west needs to put Turkey on a leash.

? The 'west' is arming moderate rebels. The Russian helicopter today that went looking for the pilots was reportedly attacked with US missiles held by rebels.

But that's a different argument. It doesn't have anything to do with whether Turkey was right to shoot down Russian planes that invade their airspace.

Yakkyda · 24-11-2015 09:30PM

The Sun King wrote: »

What worries me is the lack of common sense here. I read above that America claimed Russia was in the airspace for 17 seconds.

Were the Turks justified in shooting it down? Arguably.

Was it worth it and should they? No way.

17 seconds across a tiny strip of land is a stupid reason to blow 2 guys out of the sky, leading to at least one being shot to death on his way down.

Cooler heads should have prevailed, technicalities or otherwise

Until any video is definitely verified I'll reserve judgment, but I definitely agree with you, it's getting outta hand, on both sides(is that even a thing in this area now, it's multiple forces, in the same area, fighting against multiple targets, some the same, some opposite. It's really complicated) fcukin nows how it'll play out.

The Sun King · 24-11-2015 09:32PM

Yakkyda wrote: »

Until any video is definitely verified I'll reserve judgment, but I definitely agree with you, it's getting outta hand, on both sides(is that even a thing in this area now, it's multiple forces, in the same area, fighting against multiple targets, some the same, some opposite. It's really complicated) fcukin nows how it'll play out.

The guys that used to line up opposite one another and blast each other with muskets didn't know how good they had it.

Eugene Norman · 24-11-2015 09:34PM

LionelNashe wrote: »

? The 'west' is arming moderate rebels. The Russian helicopter today that went looking for the pilots was reportedly attacked with US missiles held by rebels.

But that's a different argument. It doesn't have anything to do with whether Turkey was right to shoot down Russian planes that invade their airspace.

You've clearly changed your arguments in just two posts.

Isaiah · 24-11-2015 09:36PM

Yakkyda wrote: »

Isaiah wrote: »

Only because the Americans supported, trained and armed the Mujahideen.

Afghanistan is proof. 2 superpowers tried and failed to defeat small rebel groups. You cannot kill an ideal embedded in a culture.

I have to agree with this, it's a historical fact, that in almost 1000 years, the Afghanistan people have never been truly subjects of a foreign power, many have tried, none have succeeded, it's a puppet power at the moment, but they basically have lined their own pockets with foreign money. The British realised this in the 19th century, the Russian's in the 80's,USA in the 00's. Say what you want about them, they've never been truly subjected, you'd think people would cop on, but history has a habit of repeating itself.

100% agree.

LionelNashe · 24-11-2015 09:38PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

You've clearly changed your arguments in just two posts.

No, I haven't. You've just read into my points things that I didn't say.

keithclancy · 24-11-2015 09:42PM

end of the road wrote: »

the russian jet barely flew into turkeys airspace. turkey have never warned russia about anything as this is the first time russia just about flew into turkish airspace. turkey shot this jet down in revenge for russia taking on turkeys isis friends. turkey are liars and are a terrorist state

Jesus Christ ... read back on the thread, the Russians even apologised and put a system in place so that it wouldn't happen again.

:rolleyes:

Den14 · 24-11-2015 09:43PM

LionelNashe wrote:

This just goes to show that in Europe and America, there's a growing feeling of hysteria. People are conditioned to respond to all the threats in the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets. I don't subscribe to this point of view.

Such an ignorant thing to do...
I hope the Russians love their children too

Isaiah · 24-11-2015 09:45PM

The pilot who was killed ( if reports can be believed) was fighting Islamic extremism in one of it's many forms. A supposed moderate Islamic country killed him because he made a few seconds error in judgement, Politics aside Christmas will be a tough one for his family. RIP.

Meanwhile everyone defends the allah akbars.

ectoraige · 24-11-2015 09:47PM

Yakkyda wrote: »

Jesus, this thread is a farce, of the highest proportions.

NOBODY HERE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.

It's almost comical to watch. Very few on here have any true idea of what is really going on in the region, I pretty much read a lot of posts as someone talking loudly, crazy eyes, frothing at the mouth all the while. It's fcukin ridiculous. It might as well all be in full caps.

(yeah, I realise that there's a sentence in this post, full caps and all, but none of us know the full details, this thread has descended into a screaming match basically, no one side will win. But yet the circle of speculation and blame continues unabated. Along with the "proof I've shown" ****)

It'd be entertaining if if wasn't so ****in polarised. (all arguments of this nature will be polarised, but I wish to **** they'd stop ruining after hours, used to be light hearted banter about issues of the day, not this scutter)

Yeah, back in the day the first post would would have been "Yeah? Well I shot down yore ma last night!", there'd be a few chuckles and rolled eyes, and we'd move onto some other ****e. Instead we get muppets anticipating the next nuclear war.

Yakkyda · 24-11-2015 09:49PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I'm largely inclined to agree, but given the pretty frequent nature of Russian airspace incursions in Turkey (and pretty much everywhere else near Russia) I wouldn't be surprised to learn if someone didn't somewhere down the line go 'enough is enough'. Still, I believe the more interesting question is, what happens the next time a Russian aircraft violates Turkish airspace?

It'll won't be an issue, Russia may start flying sorties along the Turkish /Syrian border as a show of force(as long as they have free reign in Syrian airspace, but he's very shrewd, he'll flex might alright, but won't be be stupid)

Why turkey has been admitted to nato escapes me tbh, is it not a Mediterranean country at best. Nato, was it not set up during the "cold war" as a deterrent against Soviet aggression?it's been expanding in recent years. I understand Putins "Mickley waving" tactics over the past few years, it's understandable. Russia has always tried to secure it's borders, whether thru supporting regimes or out right conquered lands.

There's two sides to every story, nothing is black and white.

La Fenetre · 24-11-2015 09:49PM

In Russia . . . we eat Turkey for Christmas

BlaasForRafa · 24-11-2015 09:51PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Still, I believe the more interesting question is, what happens the next time a Russian aircraft violates Turkish airspace?

Turkey is violating Syrian airspace all the time, hopefully next time that happens the russians will stick an archer missile up an F-16's tailpipe and teach them a lesson.

The Turks are as bad as anyone else in this conflict, they bomb the most effective anti-Daesh fighters (the Kurds), they allow Kurdish political parties to be bombed in order to effect the election in Turkey, they allow foreign fighters to transit through their country to join Daesh, they allow weapons and supplies to be funneled through their country to Daesh, the allow refining equipment to go through turkey to Daesh territory, they facilitate Daesh selling oil to finance their movement. In effect Turkey is a fully fledged supporter of Daesh but the US or any other Western power won't say anything because Turkey is a Nato member.

questionmark? · 24-11-2015 09:53PM

Stinicker wrote: »

Putin could wipe out Turkey in one hour if he wanted, wipe Ankara and Istanbul off the map with a Nuclear strike, Will America, Britain and France retaliate against Putin and risk MAD? I think the time has come for Putin to really show the world what Russia is made of and should immediately launch strikes against Turkey. I'd shed no tears if I woke up to see Turkey turned to glass. Putin should look to the past and see what Russia is capable of and remember what NATO isn't capable of.

Jasus you sound like your having a Fap at the thought of nuclear war. Don't forget to wash the sock afterwards.

XR3i · 24-11-2015 09:54PM

whats the german word for turkey

Wurzelbert · 24-11-2015 09:54PM

Yakkyda wrote: »

[...]it's a historical fact, that in almost 1000 years, the Afghanistan people have never been truly subjects of a foreign power, many have tried, none have succeeded[...]

yeah, afghanistan is a unique place inhabited by tough people for whom war is but a way of life and pain means nothing; yet one wonders why anyone would even want to rule that land…oh, and nukes haven’t been tried yet…

wendell borton · 24-11-2015 09:54PM

PARlance wrote: »

"- Russia has confirmed that the two pilots ejected themselves, but their whereabouts and fate are not yet known."

They're probably in Turkey lads.

Fapping in a Mig at mach 2 probably wasn't a great idea.

Isaiah · 24-11-2015 09:55PM

Wurzelbert wrote: »

yeah, afghanistan is a unique place inhabited by tough people for whom war is but a way of life and pain means nothing; yet one wonders why anyone would even want to rule that land…oh, and nukes haven’t been tried yet…

I don't think the Nukes would work on mountain caves and tunnels.

darkpagandeath · 24-11-2015 09:55PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I'm largely inclined to agree, but given the pretty frequent nature of Russian airspace incursions in Turkey (and pretty much everywhere else near Russia) I wouldn't be surprised to learn if someone didn't somewhere down the line go 'enough is enough'. Still, I believe the more interesting question is, what happens the next time a Russian aircraft violates Turkish airspace?

I would wager now Russia will deploy fighter escort or at least equip the bomber/ground attack planes with some air to air defence capabilities.

Rippington · 24-11-2015 09:58PM

ectoraige wrote: »

Instead we get muppets anticipating the next nuclear war.

The same who post on the comments pages of the Irish Independent every day with quotes like '' time to baton down the hatches lads '' or '' bye bye everybody '' like they see ,maybe want, instant doom around the corner . There was a good complementary article penned by a German journalist last week saying something to the affect that it's good that Euro finals will have the Irish fans in attendance next year and the usual Indo comments misery guts , some who cant tell the difference between objectivity and truth , turned it into '' how dare he say we are only there for the craic '' when his article wasn't saying anything of the kind but only after the Paris atrocity , it's good to know there will be some joy at the finals in France next year and the usual muppets turned into something it wasn't

Wurzelbert · 24-11-2015 10:02PM

Isaiah wrote: »

I don't think the Nukes would work on mountain caves and tunnels.

in mountain valleys and on poppy fields they might...

Wurzelbert · 24-11-2015 10:05PM

XR3i wrote: »

whats the german word for turkey

there are two...

Gatling · 24-11-2015 10:06PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I would wager now Russia will deploy fighter escort or at least equip the bomber/ground attack planes with some air to air defence capabilities.

They have been using unarmed Iranian f4 phantoms and a f14 for escort duty for some odd reason.

jmayo · 24-11-2015 10:07PM

Isaiah wrote: »

Only because the Americans supported, trained and armed the Mujahideen.

But, I think you do have a point. there is no winning these wars.

Afghanistan is proof. 2 superpowers tried and failed to defeat small rebel groups. You cannot kill an ideal embedded in a culture.

Even the early IRA proved this to the British.

Afghanistan is a much different place to Syria/Iraq.
Nobody has ever subjugated the Afghans.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

America lost politically, they wiped the floor with the NVA, and once they started bombing in Cambodia it was game over. Vietnam would be like Korea now if the politicians had the stomach to keep their air power in support of the south Vietnamese when the North invaded.

What the fook.
They didn't wipe the floor with the NVA.
And bombing Cambodia didn't mean any game was over.

The only way the US could have won was if they actually had invaded North Vietnam which they never offically did.
They couldn't save Suth Vietnam with airpower alone.
You will never win a war with airpower alone even now.

StewartGriffin wrote: »

An Englishman could have said much the same thing when the Brits pulled out of Ireland and left us to tear the heads off each other.

Bullsh** whataboutery.

The Irish fought based on whether you were for the treaty or against it.
They didn't fight based on if you were Catholic or Protestant which actually would probably have been the case if all 32 counties were given independence.

And they didn't fight each other based on if they were O'Neills, Burkes, Ryans or whatever bloody bloodline they belonged to.

And we didn't decide to start slaughtering people in other countries until the PIRA arrived much later.

darkpagandeath · 24-11-2015 10:07PM

Gatling wrote: »

They have been using unarmed Iranian f4 phantoms and a f14 for escort duty for some odd reason.

Could be a ploy for FF recognition ?

Turkey shoots down Russian fighter plane

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