Turkey shoots down Russian fighter plane

StringerBell · 24-11-2015 08:34PM

Gatling wrote: »

Assad who is directly supporting Isis ,
So Russia is also supporting isis ?

I'm not sure he is supporting ISIS as much as he doesn't see them as his primary problem. He may also see it as beneficial to use ISIS to get both the US and Russia involved, gambling that it will work out better for him in the long in terms of holding power in the country

Baggy Trousers · 24-11-2015 08:35PM

StringerBell wrote: »

Fighting guerilla war where they couldn't use certain weapons and were also fighting the Americans and in particular, John Rambo. ISIS is a different kettle of fish. If there is one leader you would trust to root them out and bury them it is Putin, Obama won't cause of public image.

When you have to get into a guerilla war the indigenous population is always a favourite, when it comes to flattening entire regions the guy with more bombs will normally win.

How many movies are this in this post???

A lot of bombs were dropped in Vietnam and America lost.

Isaiah · 24-11-2015 08:36PM

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Russia abjectly failed to defeat the Mujahideen over 10 years in Afghanistan so what makes you think that?

Only because the Americans supported, trained and armed the Mujahideen.

But, I think you do have a point. there is no winning these wars.

Afghanistan is proof. 2 superpowers tried and failed to defeat small rebel groups. You cannot kill an ideal embedded in a culture.

Even the early IRA proved this to the British.

Baggy Trousers · 24-11-2015 08:36PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That ISIS don't fight like the Mujahideen ?

They see themselves as a proper state with a strict military doctrine etc.
Sure, they might change tactics when on the backfoot, but they are not similar to the Afghans.

So you think ISIS will meet Russia on the battlefield? Nonsense.

Jimmy Garlic · 24-11-2015 08:38PM

take everything wrote: »

Terrifying.

Those are Obama and McInsanes ''moderate'' terrorists. Can't you see how ''moderate'' they are?

Baggy Trousers · 24-11-2015 08:38PM

Isaiah wrote: »

Only because the Americans supported, trained and armed the Mujahideen.

Not only. It was a factor but not only. And they got military aid from many sources including Saudis, Chinese and Americans.

JPNelsforearm · 24-11-2015 08:42PM

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

How many movies are this in this post???

A lot of bombs were dropped in Vietnam and America lost.

America lost politically, they wiped the floor with the NVA, and once they started bombing in Cambodia it was game over. Vietnam would be like Korea now if the politicians had the stomach to keep their air power in support of the south Vietnamese when the North invaded.

Isaiah · 24-11-2015 08:42PM

Gatling wrote: »

So he's directly supporting them by purchasing oil and gas from them ,

That's supporting them no amount of spin can change that

No amount of anything anyone says can change anything for you Gatling, because you know all things with your omnipresence.

That thread search for the keywords Russia and Putin is your best friend.

Quick Gatling! Someone is posting something on another thread about Russia! Best get over there and sort them out.

StringerBell · 24-11-2015 08:44PM

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

How many movies are this in this post???

A lot of bombs were dropped in Vietnam and America lost.

I tried for 3 movies, not sure if I succeeded.

America certainly did drop bombs, but they also had to worry about PR and try to pick military only targets which is pretty tough in the circumstances, imagine the hand wringing when a couple of thousand innocent dead get shown on the news screens now a

Basically if you don't get the difference between the US and Russia in terms of how they will go about a war there is hardly any point in me trying to explain it I don't have a hope.

Put simply, one nation has to care about how the rest of the world sees it, one couldn't give a flying ****. Chemical weapons cause plenty of damage.

Edit: Did you miss the bit where the Vietnam chaps used guerilla tactics and how that works to their advantage? And the part where this is not an option to ISIS?

Think more along the lines of Chechnya and not Vietnam.

Jimmy Garlic · 24-11-2015 08:45PM

Isaiah wrote: »

Afghanistan is proof. 2 superpowers tried and failed to defeat small rebel groups. You cannot kill an ideal embedded in a culture.

They can be crushed in Syria because their salafist/wahhabi ideology is not native to Syria, the majority of the population reject it. Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Israel, the US and friends are going to pay a big price for their support of terrorists, including isis. The truth is coming out now, they can't suppress it any longer.

StewartGriffin · 24-11-2015 08:48PM

jmayo wrote: »

but guess what the hard guys kept them under control.
They weren't nice and they were fooking awful to their own people.
But what has their rmeoval shown.
oh yeah
1. their people are fooking awful to themsevles and have desended in bickering slaughtering tribal numpties
2. And the world was actually probably a safer place with these hard men in place.

The thing is the West opened pandora's box and there are no longer the hard men to keep the loonies in check.

An Englishman could have said much the same thing when the Brits pulled out of Ireland and left us to tear the heads off each other.

Isaiah · 24-11-2015 08:48PM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

They can be crushed in Syria because their salafist/wahhabi ideology is not native to Syria, the majority of the population reject it. Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Israel, the US and friends are going to pay a big price for their support of terrorists, including isis. The truth is coming out now, they can't suppress it any longer.

While I understand what you mean, I actually meant the Sunni Islamic extremist struggle against the West and Russia.
This idea cannot be defeated because each time a country bombs a building harboring some terrorist cell, another terrorist cell is created in revenge.

Yakkyda · 24-11-2015 08:51PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

And also claims everyone is wrong... Where is the face palm pic.

Well, actually nobody's wrong here, but nobody's right either. I never claimed anything.
(i haven't claimed who was in the right or wrong,I've not sided with either. it's a very murky area, pro's and cons for both protagonists)
You don't know, definitively what happened, neither does whoever is arguing against you. We, here on boards, without having access to both sides military data basically know only what each side is releasing to the world media. If you think one side or the other is "definitive proof" of what has happened, I think you're a bit naive (or not, I'm on the fence till I hear more)

Rather than spread sh!te, and one sided arguments, I tend to look at both sides. Then format my opinion, it's a bit early for some people to be Barking so loudly, as it's most likely that us civilians (much removed from the conflict, will never know what truly happened)

Jimmy Garlic · 24-11-2015 08:54PM

Isaiah wrote: »

While I understand what you mean, I actually meant the Sunni Islamic extremist struggle against the West and Russia.

And who has been cultivating these terrorists? Follow the money. Well worth a listen...

LionelNashe · 24-11-2015 08:56PM

This just goes to show that in Europe and America, there's a growing feeling of hysteria. People are conditioned to respond to all the threats in the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets. I don't subscribe to this point of view.

Jelle1880 · 24-11-2015 08:56PM

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

So you think ISIS will meet Russia on the battlefield? Nonsense.

It's what they want, supposedly.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

The Islamic State has attached great importance to the Syrian city of Dabiq, near Aleppo. It named its propaganda magazine after the town, and celebrated madly when (at great cost) it conquered Dabiq’s strategically unimportant plains. It is here, the Prophet reportedly said, that the armies of Rome will set up their camp. The armies of Islam will meet them, and Dabiq will be Rome’s Waterloo or its Antietam.

“Dabiq is basically all farmland,” one Islamic State supporter recently tweeted. “You could imagine large battles taking place there.” The Islamic State’s propagandists drool with anticipation of this event, and constantly imply that it will come soon. The state’s magazine quotes Zarqawi as saying, “The spark has been lit here in Iraq, and its heat will continue to intensify … until it burns the crusader armies in Dabiq.” A recent propaganda video shows clips from Hollywood war movies set in medieval times—perhaps because many of the prophecies specify that the armies will be on horseback or carrying ancient weapons.

Now that it has taken Dabiq, the Islamic State awaits the arrival of an enemy army there, whose defeat will initiate the countdown to the apocalypse. Western media frequently miss references to Dabiq in the Islamic State’s videos, and focus instead on lurid scenes of beheading. “Here we are, burying the first American crusader in Dabiq, eagerly waiting for the remainder of your armies to arrive,” said a masked executioner in a November video, showing the severed head of Peter (Abdul Rahman) Kassig, the aid worker who’d been held captive for more than a year. During fighting in Iraq in December, after mujahideen (perhaps inaccurately) reported having seen American soldiers in battle, Islamic State Twitter accounts erupted in spasms of pleasure, like overenthusiastic hosts or hostesses upon the arrival of the first guests at a party.

The Prophetic narration that foretells the Dabiq battle refers to the enemy as Rome. Who “Rome” is, now that the pope has no army, remains a matter of debate. But Cerantonio makes a case that Rome meant the Eastern Roman empire, which had its capital in what is now Istanbul. We should think of Rome as the Republic of Turkey—the same republic that ended the last self-identified caliphate, 90 years ago. Other Islamic State sources suggest that Rome might mean any infidel army, and the Americans will do nicely.

Baggy Trousers · 24-11-2015 08:56PM

StringerBell wrote: »

I tried for 3 movies, not sure if I succeeded.

America certainly did drop bombs, but they also had to worry about PR and try to pick military only targets which is pretty tough in the circumstances, imagine the hand wringing when a couple of thousand innocent dead get shown on the news screens now a

Basically if you don't get the difference between the US and Russia in terms of how they will go about a war there is hardly any point in me trying to explain it I don't have a hope.

Put simply, one nation has to care about how the rest of the world sees it, one couldn't give a flying ****. Chemical weapons cause plenty of damage.

Edit: Did you miss the bit where the Vietnam chaps used guerilla tactics and how that works to their advantage? And the part where this is not an option to ISIS?

Think more along the lines of Chechnya and not Vietnam.

ISIS will not be beaten by warplanes alone.
ISIS will also use guerilla tactics. That is a given. They will not stand out in the open. They also brought down a Russian jet and killed a load of people in Paris recently. I expect them to increase their dirty tactics.

Baggy Trousers · 24-11-2015 08:58PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

It's what they want, supposedly.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Did all ISIS members sign this memo? People are people. They will do whatever suits them and adapt.

end of the road · 24-11-2015 09:02PM

Gatling wrote: »

The russian jet flew into Turkey yes ,

The Turkish government has been warning Russia not to for a month they drew a line in the sand ive no love for Turkey but they warned and warned and Russia ignored ,

Why everyone is getting upset is beyond me

the russian jet barely flew into turkeys airspace. turkey have never warned russia about anything as this is the first time russia just about flew into turkish airspace. turkey shot this jet down in revenge for russia taking on turkeys isis friends. turkey are liars and are a terrorist state

StringerBell · 24-11-2015 09:03PM

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

ISIS will not be beaten by warplanes alone.
ISIS will also use guerilla tactics. That is a given. They will not stand out in the open. They also brought down a Russian jet and killed a load of people in Paris recently. I expect them to increase their dirty tactics.

Confused?

Yes, you are I guess.

Baggy Trousers · 24-11-2015 09:05PM

StringerBell wrote: »

Confused?

Yes, you are I guess.

Please address the points. I addressed yours.

Why are guerilla tactics not an option for ISIS?? Your words.

LionelNashe · 24-11-2015 09:07PM

end of the road wrote: »

the russian jet barely flew into turkeys airspace. turkey have never warned russia about anything as this is the first time russia just about flew into turkish airspace. turkey shot this jet down in revenge for russia taking on turkeys isis friends. turkey are liars and are a terrorist state

I don't know enough about Turkey to say if they lie blatantly, but Russia certainly does, based on the way they acted in Ukraine.

If Turkey show down this plane in retaliation for something, is it not more likely that it was retaliation for the bombing of Turkmen villages and moderate rebels than the bombing of ISIS?

Gatling · 24-11-2015 09:08PM

Isaiah wrote: »

No amount of anything anyone says can change anything for you Gatling, because you know all things with your omnipresence.

That thread search for the keywords Russia and Putin is your best friend.

Quick Gatling! Someone is posting something on another thread about Russia! Best get over there and sort them out.

Oh i see you don't like something then you resort to trolling go you

end of the road · 24-11-2015 09:08PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Russia caused it's own aircraft to be shot down no one else. All that sabre rattling got them where exactly ? They were warned weeks ago to stop this chose to ignore thinking they can do what they want militarily. That has been proven incorrect, They completely underestimated the Turkish defence systems Radar and interception times.

turkey the terrorist state caused this by commiting an act of war in revenge for russia rightly taking on turkeys friends, isis scum. russia were never warned and did nothing wrong so there was nothing to ignore

RobertKK · 24-11-2015 09:08PM

The Americans are saying Russia entered Turkish airspace for 17 seconds.

Gatling · 24-11-2015 09:09PM

end of the road wrote: »

turkey the terrorist state caused this by commiting an act of war in revenge for russia rightly taking on turkeys friends, isis scum. russia were never warned and did nothing wrong so there was nothing to ignore

Odd that because Russia was publicly warned for the last month

Irish Praetorian · 24-11-2015 09:09PM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

And who has been cultivating these terrorists? Follow the money. Well worth a listen...

Because nothing suggests an informed observe more than someone who thinks Climate change is a giant conspiracy, that 9/11 was an inside job and oh why do I bother...

Baggy Trousers · 24-11-2015 09:09PM

StringerBell wrote: »

Put simply, one nation has to care about how the rest of the world sees it, one couldn't give a flying ****. Chemical weapons cause plenty of damage.

Explain this - are you saying Russia could, should or would use chemical weapons to kill as many people as possible in an entire region or area to help the Assad regime?

Yakkyda · 24-11-2015 09:09PM

Isaiah wrote: »

Only because the Americans supported, trained and armed the Mujahideen.

Afghanistan is proof. 2 superpowers tried and failed to defeat small rebel groups. You cannot kill an ideal embedded in a culture.

I have to agree with this, it's a historical fact, that in almost 1000 years, the Afghanistan people have never been truly subjects of a foreign power, many have tried, none have succeeded, it's a puppet power at the moment, but they basically have lined their own pockets with foreign money. The British realised this in the 19th century, the Russian's in the 80's,USA in the 00's. Say what you want about them, they've never been truly subjected, you'd think people would cop on, but history has a habit of repeating itself.

The Sun King · 24-11-2015 09:17PM

What worries me is the lack of common sense here. I read above that America claimed Russia was in the airspace for 17 seconds.

Were the Turks justified in shooting it down? Arguably.

Was it worth it and should they? No way.

17 seconds across a tiny strip of land is a stupid reason to blow 2 guys out of the sky, leading to at least one being shot to death on his way down.

Cooler heads should have prevailed, technicalities or otherwise

Turkey shoots down Russian fighter plane

Comments