Turkey shoots down Russian fighter plane

Jelle1880 · 24-11-2015 05:54PM

Wizard! wrote: »

My uncle was a F-4 pilot in Air Force, my brother served in Air Radar Warning division, but you know better how things work.

So maybe you should have asked them about ICAO and SUA airspace classes before acting as if these kind of warnings are only giving when it's too late.

Eugene Norman · 24-11-2015 05:55PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That's how these things work. Airspace is treated differently from for example a physical border on the ground.

They dont have to respond until they are in the airspace. Btw the letter says the second plane was hit by a f-16 in Turkish airspace. Not outside.

And reading between the lines I think 17 seconds was the total time the 2 aircraft strayed into the claimed airspace. Maybe half that each. Depending on how close they were.

Russia hasn't released the trajectory of the surviving plane but what if it's records show no violation of Turkish airspace?

Eugene Norman · 24-11-2015 05:56PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

So maybe you should have asked them about airspace classes before acting as if these kind of warnings are only giving when it's too late.

Given that you are an anonymous poster on the internet I am certainly taking your position more seriously than the guy who has family in the game. Definitely.

BoJack Horseman · 24-11-2015 05:57PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Russia hasn't released the trajectory of the surviving plane but what if it's records show no violation of Turkish airspace?

We await that.

This morning Russia said "objective" sources indicated that the planes were inside Syrian airspace only.

They have not disclosed anything to support it yet.

Jelle1880 · 24-11-2015 05:57PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Given that you are an anonymous poster on the internet I am certainly taking your position more seriously than the guy who has family in the game. Definitely.

I'm not pretending I know all about it, but I do know a little about how this works, mostly out of interest in all matters military

And his claim that warnings to turn back are only given once a plane actually enters said airspace are wrong.

As you said: The Russians were in their right to not respond until they were actually in airspace, but that's different from Turkey sending out warnings. And given what happened a few weeks back I think it's highly stupid to keep quiet when approaching Turkish airspace.

Given that one of the jets turned back it's clear they knew imo.

Wizard! · 24-11-2015 06:01PM

Gatling wrote: »

Now come on anyone can come onto a forum and make a claim like that

True. As anybody can claim they have knowledge on the matter, but they do not have a clue and interpret things/facts the wrong way.

Jelle1880 wrote: »

So maybe you should have asked them about ICAO and SUA airspace classes before acting as if these kind of warnings are only giving when it's too late.

No warning is given before entering airspace. Before that, is only request for ID.
If we had to shot down every aircraft that enters an airspace after a reasonable number of warnings, Turkey would have ran out of planes, long ago:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/turkish-and-greek-jets-engaged-in-dogfight-2015-7?r=US&IR=T

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151009/1028274796/greece-turkey-warplanes.html

http://www.sigmalive.com/en/news/greece/136111/turkey-repeatedly-violates-greek-airspace

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/07/17/turkish-fighter-jets-violate-greek-airspace-again/

Jelle1880 · 24-11-2015 06:02PM

Wizard! wrote: »

True. As anybody can claim they have knowledge on the matter, but they do not have a clue and interpret things/facts the wrong way.

No warning is given before entering airspace. Before that, is only request for ID.
If we had to shot down every aircraft that enters an airspace after a reasonable number of warnings, Turkey would have ran out of planes, long ago:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/turkish-and-greek-jets-engaged-in-dogfight-2015-7?r=US&IR=T

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151009/1028274796/greece-turkey-warplanes.html

http://www.sigmalive.com/en/news/greece/136111/turkey-repeatedly-violates-greek-airspace

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/07/17/turkish-fighter-jets-violate-greek-airspace-again/

In normal circumstances that might be true, but given the situation in Syria Turkey treats it's border with Syria as a military zone, meaning they do send out warnings to turn back (together with requests for ID, which was ignored by the Russians supposedly).

Pointing out Turkish violations of airspace of other countries doesn't really matter much if the other party involved is Russia, who are a lot worse at it

Yakkyda · 24-11-2015 06:05PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That's not my point and you know it.

As soon as it became clear that you couldn't back up your claims about the plane being shot down over Syria you decided to focus on the ****ty stuff Turkey does with regards to ISIS. It's crystal clear what you're trying.

edit: They didn't warn Russia not to attack ISIS, they warned them to stay the fcuk out of their airspace. And rightly so.

Where's the fun in that ?

No fun in this thread lad, no fcukin real "proof" either tbh, anyone that claims that there is, is deluded imo, it's only one sides speil , hardly constituents real "proof" at this time imo. Just a lot of speculation and conjecture is all it boils down to atm

Jelle1880 · 24-11-2015 06:17PM

Yakkyda wrote: »

No fun in this thread lad, no fcukin real "proof" either tbh, anyone that claims that there is, is deluded imo, it's only one sides speil , hardly constituents real "proof" at this time imo. Just a lot of speculation and conjecture is all it boils down to atm

Well you're always going to have speculation about a an incident that gets so much international attention, if we'd treat all threads like 'just sit back for a while until you know all the facts' this would be a very boring message board

darkpagandeath · 24-11-2015 06:20PM

Russia shoots down Ukrainian planes that's fine. Russia is warned not to fly into airspace for months and then gets shot down. Some how that's not cricket apparently.

jmayo · 24-11-2015 06:23PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I find it amusing that you shift the attention to things like this when it's becoming clear that you're wrong.

Everybody knows that Turkey isn't exactly... hard against ISIS, to say the least.

Talk about an understatement.
They have actively helped them.
They shell ISIS opponents, they refused to help US fight them and they have let supplies and personnel into ISIS controlled areas.
And that doesn't even touch on fact they probably let oil and looted historically significant artifacts out from ISIS controlled areas.

Jayop wrote: »

So 17 seconds 10 times over 5 minutes. They spent a total of 3 minutes and 10 seconds in Turkish airspace. Plenty of time to hail them numerous times.

That plane must have only been travelling at around 200mph to take 17 seconds for just over a mile. Pretty slow.

On an actual pilot forum a former fighter pilot mentioned how sometimes it is difficult to maintain communications with your own side never mind the opposing side.
BTW he also had flown interceptions on Russian aircraft and not once was he able to communicate with them or they with him.

BTW what language did the Turks use to communicate these warning to the Russian Su-24?
Lets presume it was English which neither side may be great at.

Gatling · 24-11-2015 06:25PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Russia shoots down Ukrainian planes that's fine. Russia is warned not to fly into airspace for months and then gets shot down. Some how that's not cricket apparently.

Malaysian planes too

WarZ · 24-11-2015 06:28PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPmmtrMJyHs

The Russian pilots getting a "welcome" from the "moderate rebels". Putin should turn that place into glass.
Religion of peace.

Some of the anti-Russian supporters on here should watch that video and see the sort of scum you are actually supporting.

snubbleste · 24-11-2015 06:31PM

Regarding the Obama/Hollande press meeting..
Obama reads out a speech, Hollande more or less ad-libs his way through and with passion.

Yakkyda · 24-11-2015 06:32PM

Interesting (if true) that one plane diverted, perhaps the other guys thought "fcuk it, we'll fly through and unload" If that's the scenario, I'd imagine the other pilot peeled off as they'd already jettisoned their payload, and so not worth the additional risk of breaching foreign airspace.

As I said earlier, that particular area has obviously been bolstered with additional air patrols recently, it's not inconceivable for a Turkish plane to intercept in quick time, assuming that they had them on radar miles before breaching their airspace(basically a given) and fired pretty much as soon as feasible, any reasonably modern weapon system could easily have tracked it into Syria, or struck before the Russian su left their airspace(especially if as some have conjectured) it was a lower speed preparing a bomb run, limped into Syria etc. All speculation on my behalf,as is everything posted here imo.

darkpagandeath · 24-11-2015 06:33PM

WarZ wrote: »

Some of the anti-Russian supporters on here should watch that video and see the sort of scum you are actually supporting.

Who's anti Russian now ?

Diamond Doll · 24-11-2015 06:34PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPmmtrMJyHs

The Russian pilots getting a "welcome" from the "moderate rebels". Putin should turn that place into glass.
Religion of peace.

Jesus that's horrific.

Absolute scumbags.

snubbleste · 24-11-2015 06:39PM

Diamond Doll wrote: »

Jesus that's horrific. Absolute scumbags.

Why? Surely you'd say the exact same when a russian missile kills a person?

mikeym · 24-11-2015 06:40PM

Utv Ireland say plane crashed in Syria.

So that means the plane was shot in Syrian airspace.

darkpagandeath · 24-11-2015 06:42PM

mikeym wrote: »

Utv Ireland say plane crashed in Syria.

So that means the plane was shot in Syrian airspace.

No it does not. One does realise planes are in the Air yes ? Let us know exactly what physics allows an object to remove all energy once destroyed and fall directly to the ground.

sheesh · 24-11-2015 06:43PM

mikeym wrote: »

Utv Ireland say plane crashed in Syria.

So that means the plane was shot in Syrian airspace.

no it doesn't.

StewartGriffin · 24-11-2015 06:50PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Given that you are an anonymous poster on the internet I am certainly taking your position more seriously than the guy who has family in the game. Definitely.

You mean the anonymous guy who has anonymous family in the game?

Wait a second...how do I know you're really Eugene Norman and not just some schmuck pretending to be Eugene Norman?

Uboat · 24-11-2015 06:53PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Russia shoots down Ukrainian planes that's fine. Russia is warned not to fly into airspace for months and then gets shot down. Some how that's not cricket apparently.

Any proof?

Gatling · 24-11-2015 06:55PM

mikeym wrote: »

Utv Ireland say plane crashed in Syria.

So that means the plane was shot in Syrian airspace.

No

darkpagandeath · 24-11-2015 06:59PM

Uboat wrote: »

Any proof?

Seems the new accounts are rolling in must be battle stations and damage control now.

Uboat · 24-11-2015 07:04PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Seems the new accounts are rolling in must be battle stations and damage control now.

Seem the old accounts rolling big joints.

jmayo · 24-11-2015 07:05PM

Diamond Doll wrote: »

Jesus that's horrific. Absolute scumbags.

I don't think Lieutenant-General Mikhail Kalashnikov would like to see his weapons used by these nutjobs killing Russian pilots.

darkpagandeath · 24-11-2015 07:09PM

Uboat wrote: »

Seem the old accounts rolling big joints.

Sorry to disappoint, I'm not swigging the vodka and thinking of the USSR glory days.

InTheTrees · 24-11-2015 07:10PM

So lets review

Russia decides its a good idea to bomb the "Turkmen", an ethnic Turkish tribe living in Syria on the border with turkey.

Turkey warns them to stop. And especially warns them to stop breaching Turkish airspace to conduct the bombing.

Given Russia has invaded Ukraine because of perceived injustices against ethnic Russians in Ukraine, i don't see how this situation should be surprising for the Russians.

darkpagandeath · 24-11-2015 07:13PM

InTheTrees wrote: »

So lets review

Russia decides its a good idea to bomb the "Turkmen", an ethnic Turkish tribe living in Syria on the border with turkey.

Turkey warns them to stop. And especially warns them to stop breaching Turkish airspace to conduct the bombing.

Given Russia has invaded Ukraine because of perceived injustices against ethnic Russians in Ukraine, i don't see how this situation should be surprising for the Russians.

Under the mistaken assumption militarily they can do what they want. That has been proven incorrect. Also I guess they really under estimated Turkeys Air defence and interception times.

Turkey shoots down Russian fighter plane

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