Turkey shoots down Russian fighter plane

Jelle1880 · 24-11-2015 04:31PM

Wizard! wrote: »

Between Greece & Turkey, there are more than 10 incidents every week. On the exact date, 24 Nov 2006, Turks killed a Greek pilot and said it was an accident. Turkey always does that, and hides behind NATO skirts. Their president declared before a few weeks that they will shoot down any Russian aircraft (he did not say anything about radio silence though...). So, it was on purpose and they know that Putin will not declare war against NATO.

So what you're saying is Turkey warned Russia and Russia still decided to test them ?

Seems to me Russia has been waving their military dick in NATo country's faces for ages now, and finally found someone who'll kick them in the bollocks for doing it.

Gatling · 24-11-2015 04:31PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

it has to be pre planned provocation.

Well flying an Armed aircraft into a sovereign country despite been warned multiple times not to in the past month.

Would be considered planned provocation by any country

hmmm · 24-11-2015 04:33PM

Gatling wrote: »

Doesnt look like a Hind ,

We see two flying over at the beginning ,
I'm in between on this one

There's a Hind escorting a Mi8 (?) at the beginning. The next thing we see is a TOW hit on what looks like an abandoned helicopter (again Mi8). I haven't seen the video before, my instinct is that it is probably real - possibly technical problems or forced down by small arms.

CruelCoin · 24-11-2015 04:35PM

The perfect analogy here is the cat and dog.

The dog (russia) is growling and keeps lunging at the cat on the chair.
The cat (turkey) hisses and raises its paw.
This continues for a while.
Eventually the dog gets too close and gets the cats claws buried in its nose, then like the dumb beast it is, acts all surprised when it happens.

Personally, it was the perfect response from Turkey.

Gazzmonkey · 24-11-2015 04:39PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

The perfect analogy here is the cat and dog.

The dog (russia) is growling and keeps lunging at the cat on the chair.
The cat (turkey) hisses and raises its paw.
This continues for a while.
Eventually the dog gets too close and gets the cats claws buried in its nose, then like the dumb beast it is, acts all surprised when it happens.

Personally, it was the perfect response from Turkey.

You forgot the part where the dog chases & eats the cat

then proceeds to turn said cat into feces and pushes it out the back

CruelCoin · 24-11-2015 04:42PM

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

You forgot the part where the dog chases & eats the cat

then proceeds to turn said cat into feces and pushes it out the back

:eek:

Gatling · 24-11-2015 04:43PM

hmmm wrote: »

There's a Hind escorting a Mi8 (?) at the beginning. The next thing we see is a TOW hit on what looks like an abandoned helicopter (again Mi8). I haven't seen the video before, my instinct is that it is probably real - possibly technical problems or forced down by small arms.

You maybe correct on the Mil 8 I honestly thought it was two hinds ,

But if the Mil 8 was part of the SAR effort there must have been a detachment of Russian soldiers with it ,

JPNelsforearm · 24-11-2015 04:44PM

Gatling wrote: »

Well flying an Armed aircraft into a sovereign country despite been warned multiple times not to in the past month.

Would be considered planned provocation by any country

But thats not how this happened, It flew across a part of Turkey that juts into Syria in a matter of seconds and then a Turkish jet shot it down when it was 3-5km back inside Syria which all flies in the face of a memorandum relating to airspace operations that Turkey signed.
If shoot first was how NATO and Russia conducted business, neither would have much planes left in the sky.

Wizard! · 24-11-2015 04:44PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

So what you're saying is Turkey warned Russia and Russia still decided to test them ?

Seems to me Russia has been waving their military dick in NATo country's faces for ages now, and finally found someone who'll kick them in the bollocks for doing it.

Probably you have no idea what is going on with Turkey. Do you know that both Greece & Turkey spend Billions in weapons, to protect from eachother but in the same time they supposed to be allies?
Do you know that Turkey violates Greek air space more than 10 times a week? I do not remember any Turkish F-16 to be shot down, but I can remember Greek ones.
Air violations are very common, and as said before, most of the times the duration is just seconds. Turks do that daily. So, should Greeks shot them down and say "Turks were testing us!" ?
They shot down an aircraft over Syrian ground, NOT their own territory. They knew it was Russian, they knew they can get away with it.
Turkey's ambassador to the United States, Serdar Kilic, was equally aggressive in his comments, tweeting: "Understand this: Turkey is a country whose warnings should be taken seriously and listened to. Don't test Turkey's patience. Try to win its friendship.". I think this is a threat, not a warning, and since an attack to a NATO member, is an attack to all members, Turkey plays safe.
And, also, everybody knows that Turkey helps ISIS against Assad, under the protection of US. So, focus there, not if the Sukhoi was over Turkey.

take everything · 24-11-2015 04:45PM

Some Russian commentator on Sky News talking about breaching the "nuclear threshold" being a possibility in any escalation of this.

Is this credible?

InTheTrees · 24-11-2015 04:47PM

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

You forgot the part where the dog chases & eats the cat

then proceeds to turn said cat into feces and pushes it out the back

No, this dog is a Chihuahua, a shadow of its former self, yearning for the days of the mighty Soviet Union. Its strutting and posturing in an attempt to retain relevancy.

BoJack Horseman · 24-11-2015 04:48PM

take everything wrote: »

Some Russian commentator on Sky News talking about the "nuclear threshold" being a possibility in any escalation of this.

Is this credible?

Saw that.

No, its bunk (imo).

There have been much much bigger incidents than this in the past and nuclear weapons have not really been a factor.
Communication between the nuclear powers are much more instant & frequent than they were back in the day.

hyperbolic on the part of that contributor

Gatling · 24-11-2015 04:49PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

But thats not how this happened, It flew across a part of Turkey that juts into Syria .

That's Exactly what happened .

No amount of Russian spin will change it

Jelle1880 · 24-11-2015 04:49PM

Wizard! wrote: »

Probably you have no idea what is going on with Turkey. Do you know that both Greece & Turkey spend Billions in weapons, to protect from eachother but in the same time they supposed to be allies?
Do you know that Turkey violates Greek air space more than 10 times a week? I do not remember any Turkish F-16 to be shot down, but I can remember Greek ones.
Air violations are very common, and as said before, most of the times the duration is just seconds. Turks do that daily. So, should Greeks shot them down and say "Turks were testing us!" ?
They shot down an aircraft over Syrian ground, NOT their own territory. They knew it was Russian, they knew they can get away with it.
Turkey's ambassador to the United States, Serdar Kilic, was equally aggressive in his comments, tweeting: "Understand this: Turkey is a country whose warnings should be taken seriously and listened to. Don't test Turkey's patience. Try to win its friendship.". I think this is a threat, not a warning, and since an attack to a NATO member, is an attack to all members, Turkey plays safe.
And, also, everybody knows that Turkey helps ISIS against Assad, under the protection of US. So, focus there, not if the Sukhoi was over Turkey.

You keep saying it was shot down over Syria, without proof. If it's shot down over Turkey it can still end up in Syria, a damaged plane can travel for quite a while.

And of course that is a threat, aimed at Russia who have consistently ignored Turkish airspace. Turkey are well within their right to utter such a threat.

Why should we focus on what Turkey does with ISIS when the whole issue about this thread is concerning a plane that was shot down, while supposedly entering Turkish airspace ? Stop trying to shift the attention.

Jayop · 24-11-2015 04:49PM

take everything wrote: »

Some Russian commentator on Sky News talking about breaching the "nuclear threshold" being a possibility in any escalation of this.

Is this credible?

Turkey have 60/70 warheads of their own according to Google so I really doubt that Russia will press that button.

edit: Actually they're US nukes in Turkey...

In peace time, the nuclear weapons stored in non-nuclear countries are guarded by U.S. airmen though previously some artillery and missile systems were guarded by US Army soldiers; the Permissive Action Link codes required for arming them remain under American control. In case of war, the weapons are to be mounted on the participating countries' warplanes. The weapons are under custody and control of USAF Munitions Support Squadrons co-located on NATO main operating bases who work together with the host nation forces.[2]

Eugene Norman · 24-11-2015 04:50PM

Wizard! wrote: »

Probably you have no idea what is going on with Turkey. Do you know that both Greece & Turkey spend Billions in weapons, to protect from eachother but in the same time they supposed to be allies?
Do you know that Turkey violates Greek air space more than 10 times a week? I do not remember any Turkish F-16 to be shot down, but I can remember Greek ones.
Air violations are very common, and as said before, most of the times the duration is just seconds. Turks do that daily. So, should Greeks shot them down and say "Turks were testing us!" ?
They shot down an aircraft over Syrian ground, NOT their own territory. They knew it was Russian, they knew they can get away with it.
Turkey's ambassador to the United States, Serdar Kilic, was equally aggressive in his comments, tweeting: "Understand this: Turkey is a country whose warnings should be taken seriously and listened to. Don't test Turkey's patience. Try to win its friendship.". I think this is a threat, not a warning, and since an attack to a NATO member, is an attack to all members, Turkey plays safe.
And, also, everybody knows that Turkey helps ISIS against Assad, under the protection of US. So, focus there, not if the Sukhoi was over Turkey.

Greece seems like a natural ally of Russia along with some other south Eastern European states.

BoJack Horseman · 24-11-2015 04:50PM

Jayop wrote: »

Turkey have 60/70 warheads of their own according to Google so I really doubt that Russia will press that button.

Stored in, but not operated by.

Belgium has some stored their too, but they aren't a nuclear armed state.
Neither is Turkey.

Yakkyda · 24-11-2015 04:51PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Well Im using CNN's GPS track of the aircraft which is straight, and speeds of the aircraft, even allowing for some deviation point, to the time in Turkish airspace in seconds, wheather thats under ten(at maximum speeds) or under twenty at cruising, its still not a rational or legal response to an aircraft flying though/over your territory.
The aircraft was back in Syrian territory when it was shot down, there is no justification, if has to be pre planned provocation.

I'd imagine if the Turkish defence ministry have been warning them to respect their airspace, it's most likely a heavily patrolled area, if they ignored the warnings that were allegdy given and continued to breach it, it wouldn't take much to get within firing range whilst still within their sovereign limits, fire off a couple and the missiles struck over Syria. Air to air missiles have a significant range and have done for decades. If that su didn't have bang up to date anti air defence avionics (very likely, putin is hardly likely to be putting his best warplanes into action here) it probably hadn't a chance. The f-16 I'd imagine is a superior plane against the su(fighter bomber) as opposed to a fighter interceptor with secondary bombing capabilities I believe. Despite the fact the US doesn't sell those planes to foreign nations with anywhere near the avionics/munition capabilities they use themselves.

I'd say the turks let rip within their own airspace and the plane came down in Syria. Even with bailing out, you could easily drift that distance on a parachute, even if the strike occurred in Turkish airspace.

Eugene Norman · 24-11-2015 04:51PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

You keep saying it was shot down over Syria, without proof. If it's shot down over Turkey it can still end up in Syria, a damaged plane can travel for quite a while.

And of course that is a threat, aimed at Russia who have consistently ignored Turkish airspace. Turkey are well within their right to utter such a threat.

Why should we focus on what Turkey does with ISIS when the whole issue about this thread is concerning a plane that was shot down, while supposedly entering Turkish airspace ? Stop trying to shift the attention.

Even the Turkish published track of the airspace showed it was there for a few seconds at most.

Gatling · 24-11-2015 04:52PM

Jayop wrote: »

Turkey have 60/70 warheads of their own according to Google so I really doubt that Russia will press that button.

MAD scenario comes to mind Russia fires nuke into turkey,
Turkey fires it's nukes at russia
The EU countries and the US fires their nukes at russia .

We all end up FUBAR

Jayop · 24-11-2015 04:52PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Stored in, but not operated by.

Belgium has some stored their too, but they aren't a nuclear armed state.
Neither is Turkey.

Yeah I edited that post after reading a little more. They're guarded by USAF and the US have to go codes.

Jayop · 24-11-2015 04:53PM

Gatling wrote: »

MAD scenario comes to mind Russia fires nuke into turkey,
Turkey fires it's nukes at russia
The EU countries and the US fires their nukes at russia .

We all end up FUBAR

See the Edit. There is 60/70 in Turkey but they are controlled by the US.

Same scenario as above is possible though.

JPNelsforearm · 24-11-2015 04:55PM

Gatling wrote: »

That's Exactly what happened .

No amount of Russian spin will change it

https://twitter.com/CNNTURK_ENG/status/669098577524822016/photo/1

No, here's the flight path from the Turkish military, It traversed 2km of Turkey in a matter of seconds or max two tens of seconds, and was then shot down inside Syria. Look at the distances involved, it was way back inside Syria when it was shot down.

this was deliberate and came from on high in the Turkish military it flies in the face of the memorandum that Turkey signed. Turkey has broken a military treaty it signed at the start of Russian Jets entering the conflict.

Jelle1880 · 24-11-2015 04:56PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Even the Turkish published track of the airspace showed it was there for a few seconds at most.

No it didn't.

That would be a top speed, the plane that was shot down was a fighter bomber which was doing bombing manoeuvres, they don't go at top speed in that scenario.

So it was probably longer than 'a few seconds at most'.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

https://twitter.com/CNNTURK_ENG/status/669098577524822016/photo/1

No, here's the flight path from the Turkish military, It traversed 2km of Turkey in a matter of seconds or max two tens of seconds, and was then shot down inside Syria. this was deliberate and came from on high in the Turkish military it flies in the face of the memorandum that Turkey signed. Turkey has broken a military treaty it signed at the start of Russian Jets entering the conflict.

Would that be the memorandum you were talking about earlier which was supposedly signed a few years back ?
The one that Russia repeatedly broke by having previous planes enter Turkish airspace and even a drone ?

That one ?

Also, see above. A fighter bomber following bombing manoeuvres isn't going at top speed, it would have been in Turkish airspace for longer than 'a matter of seconds'.

edit: the US have apparently relased a statement that the plane was definitely in Turkish airspace and ignored 10 warnings. I'll see if I can find it.

Gatling · 24-11-2015 04:56PM

Jayop wrote: »

See the Edit. There is 60/70 in Turkey but they are controlled by the US.

Same scenario as above is possible though.

That's it how quick can nukes be activated and launched for all involved .
get the feeling the EU based ones have been on standby since Ukraine kicked off

Wizard! · 24-11-2015 04:57PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

You keep saying it was shot down over Syria, without proof. If it's shot down over Turkey it can still end up in Syria, a damaged plane can travel for quite a while.

Where is Turkey's proof of that?

Jelle1880 wrote: »

And of course that is a threat, aimed at Russia who have consistently ignored Turkish airspace. Turkey are well within their right to utter such a threat.

Where is Turkey's proof of that?

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Why should we focus on what Turkey does with ISIS when the whole issue about this thread is concerning a plane that was shot down, while supposedly entering Turkish airspace ? Stop trying to shift the attention.

Really? A few days ago, ISIS killed 135 and now we do not care who helps them, who buys their oil and gives them weapons? Really?

jmayo · 24-11-2015 04:57PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

So what you're saying is Turkey warned Russia and Russia still decided to test them ?

Seems to me Russia has been waving their military dick in NATo country's faces for ages now, and finally found someone who'll kick them in the bollocks for doing it.

If anything Erdogan has been waving his dick about the place and until recently he got what the hell he liked in Syria.
He could back Free Syrian Army, he could back ISIS and he could of course have an old pop at the Kurds who were actually fighting ISIS.

He could even tell the yanks to sod off when they wanted to use his airspace when they wanted to attack ISIS.
Remember John Kerry's statements ?

So much for NATO allies helping each other then.

Then Vlad arrived and Erdogan no longer can swing his mickie about as much as there is an even bigger mickie swinger in town.

Then pressure starts to be on that forces him to allow his actual NATO allies to fly through his airspace and he is asked to help fight ISIS.

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

You forgot the part where the dog chases & eats the cat

then proceeds to turn said cat into feces and pushes it out the back

No you forgot the part where the cat hightails back behind the hind legs of it's bigger buddy when there is danger of getting it's head chewed off.

Gazzmonkey · 24-11-2015 04:57PM

Jayop wrote: »

Turkey have 60/70 warheads of their own according to Google so I really doubt that Russia will press that button.

edit: Actually they're US nukes in Turkey...

and Russia have over 4000 nukes, nearly half of which are active and ready to go

Gatling · 24-11-2015 04:59PM

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

and Russia have over 4000 nukes, nearly half of which are active and ready to go

So they claim be interested to see if they actually are

gandalf · 24-11-2015 05:00PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

https://twitter.com/CNNTURK_ENG/status/669098577524822016/photo/1

No, here's the flight path from the Turkish military, It traversed 2km of Turkey in a matter of seconds or max two tens of seconds, and was then shot down inside Syria. Look at the distances involved, it was way back inside Syria when it was shot down.

this was deliberate and came from on high in the Turkish military it flies in the face of the memorandum that Turkey signed. Turkey has broken a military treaty it signed at the start of Russian Jets entering the conflict.

One of the links I posted on the previous page showed that Syria shot down an unarmed Turkish reconnaissance flight that strayed 1km into Syrian airspace. There is precedence for this already in that area and Russia should have been aware of this. Instead they ignored all the previous warnings from the Turks and arrogantly carried on.

It was inevitable that an incident like this would occur eventually.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/turkey-vows-action-after-syria-shoots-down-jet-1.1236021

Turkey shoots down Russian fighter plane

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