Turkey shoots down Russian fighter plane

gandalf · 24-11-2015 03:51PM

jmayo wrote: »

I would bet the ones that will gain most from this in short term are Kurds who may suddenly find a benefactor has dropped them a load of surface to air missiles.

Putin is not stupid.
He may not do anything rash right now, but he will get even.

In fact he seems to be playing this as we are the victims of Turkey who are backing terrorists.
And who know what he is kinda of on the money.

If that occurs and given the Russians have a number of war planes operating in the same theatre all that will happen is that the Turkmen rebels will suddenly get surface to air missiles that can threaten them (if they haven't already).

Jelle1880 · 24-11-2015 03:51PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

^the US(and allies) and Russia also signed a memorandum to stop air to air "incidents" from happening this year. So Turkey can claim a five mile buffer zone in syria from 2012 all they want, its irrelevant.

How is it irrelevant if NATO approved it ? Hell, NATO even sent anti air installations to Turkey themselves.

And Russia can claim what they want about signing something, in october of this year another plane of them violated Turkish airspace. http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/05/middleeast/syria-russia-airstrikes/
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/nato-rejects-russian-claim-violation-of-turkish-airspace-accidental-1.2381481

Turkey also shot down a drone a while back.

Russia has a long history of constantly letting their planes enter other countries' airspace.

Yakkyda · 24-11-2015 03:53PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

The "rebels" are all Islamist scum at this point, lets not pretend this is a civil war. Its Islamism backed by the Gulf states and the US/Turkey vs Assad/Russia.

Not exactly true,if you really think that, you seem to have very little grasp of the situation imo.
The Syrian civil war has been going on now for nearly four years. The rebels are fighting on two fronts, against daesh and the assad regime. Assads crowd are in turn doing the same, against the rebels and daesh. Russia is backing assad bombing the rebels and daesh(when it suits) the US are nominally supporting the rebels whilst bombing daesh. The kurdish are fighting a ground war against daesh and doing a bloody good job considering the resources they have to hand. They're battle hardened veterans that seem to have a good command structure, tactics and troop discipline, but they can only do so much. They push daesh back as far Syria, they won't push further, they just want their territory back an autonomous region, mostly in Iraq I believe.

Meanwhile daesh scum (not "Islamic scum", just scum) are picking fights with all and sundry, ffs the tali ban don't won't anything to do with them.

That's it, as succinctly as I can put it for you, they are the main players on the field so to speak, there are certainly others in the background (aiding and abetting various groups in different capacities) to say everyone in the theatre is "Islamic scum" is daft and shows ignorance on your part.

JPNelsforearm · 24-11-2015 03:55PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

How is it irrelevant if NATO approved it ?

Because three years later all parties signed a memorandum that supercedes it.

Cook told reporters later the memo was signed for the U.S. side by Army General Lloyd Austin, the head of U.S. Central Command, which is responsible for U.S. forces in the Middle East region.

He said the document called for U.S. and Russian aircraft to maintain a safe distance, but he declined to be more specific about whether the protocols included specific distances.

He added that the agreement covered coalition aircraft. Coalition members include Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the United Arab Emirates.

Read more at Reutershttp://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/20/us-mideast-crisis-russia-usa-idUSKCN0SE2HK20151020#87CP2myUaWwqTA6z.99

Clearly "shoot first, ask questions later" is off the table.

Jelle1880 · 24-11-2015 03:58PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Because three years later all parties signed a memorandum that supercedes it.

Cook told reporters later the memo was signed for the U.S. side by Army General Lloyd Austin, the head of U.S. Central Command, which is responsible for U.S. forces in the Middle East region.

He said the document called for U.S. and Russian aircraft to maintain a safe distance, but he declined to be more specific about whether the protocols included specific distances.

He added that the agreement covered coalition aircraft. Coalition members include Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the United Arab Emirates.

Read more at Reutershttp://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/20/us-mideast-crisis-russia-usa-idUSKCN0SE2HK20151020#87CP2myUaWwqTA6z.99

Clearly "shoot first, ask questions later" is off the table.

It doesn't matter if Russia signed something if they then violate it on multiple occasions.

They have shown a clear disregard for Turkish airspace so Turkey is well within their rights to take action. Multiple warnings have been given in the past, Russia doesn't listen, Turkey responds.

It may be a bit extreme of a response but so far it looks to me like the only one at fault here are the Russians.

BattleCorp · 24-11-2015 03:58PM

I doubt this will blow up into a wide scale war between Russia and Nato. Turkey have made a powerful enemy though and Russia won't let them away scot-free.

I'd fully expect the Kurds to mysteriously have access to some of Russia's modern toys in the very near future. I wouldn't fancy being a Turkish pilot operating anywhere the Kurds in the future.

Another thing that this incident will do is to focus the world's attention on how Turkey are failing to tackle ISIS. In fact, it appears that Turkey are actually aiding ISIS and that won't be forgotten in a hurry.

ectoraige · 24-11-2015 03:59PM

BBCNews wrote:

The deputy commander of a Turkmen brigade in Syria says his forces shot dead two pilots of the downed Russian jet as they descended with parachutes, says Reuters.

Under the Geneva convention, shooting at ejected pilots is classed a war-crime.

aidan24326 · 24-11-2015 03:59PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Some "evidence"
That bit of Turkey is about 2 km wide so the airspace violation was at most a few tens of seconds.
A Su-24M 'Fencer' traveling at it's sea level speed of 1,320 km/h it would have been over Turkey for a grand total of 6.81 seconds.
At its high altitude speed of 2,317 km/h that's down to just 3.88 second.

Name a single country in the civilised world that responds to a jet (non violently)violating their airspace in that manner? Show me some legal justification, there is none, Turkey just declared war on Russia and are hiding behind NATO's skirts.

They would be the max speeds though, typically fighter jets fly at around the same cruising speeds as a passenger jet. But even at that speed they would have traversed that airspace in a short time.

StewartGriffin wrote: »

Do you seriously believe that military-grade scanning stations are blind regarding the identity of an aircraft until it identifies itself?

It's possible. Typically planes emit so-called squawk codes which identify the plane as a civilian aircraft, military aircraft and so on, along with other information about that aircraft. But again this requires the transponder to be turned on. Without it, and unless you have a visual, then it's possible that the exact identity and intentions of an aircraft may not be known. The question here though is why the Turks were so quick on the trigger in terms of shooting the plane down rather than less drastic actions. They surely wouldn't deliberately provoke a military goliath like Russia unless there's a hidden agenda.

JPNelsforearm · 24-11-2015 04:00PM

Yakkyda wrote: »

Not exactly true,if you really think that, you seem to have very little grasp of the situation imo.
The Syrian civil war has been going on now for nearly four years. The rebels are fighting on two fronts, against daesh and the assad regime. Assads crowd are in turn doing the same, against the rebels and daesh. Russia is backing assad bombing the rebels and daesh(when it suits) the US are nominally supporting the rebels whilst bombing daesh. The kurdish are fighting a ground war against daesh and doing a bloody good job considering the resources they have to hand. They're battle hardened veterans that seem to have a good command structure, tactics and troop discipline, but they can only do so much. They push daesh back as far Syria, they won't push further, they just want their territory back an autonomous region, mostly in Iraq I believe.

Meanwhile daesh scum (not "Islamic scum", just scum) are picking fights with all and sundry, ffs the tali ban don't won't anything to do with them.

That's it, as succinctly as I can put it for you, they are the main players on the field so to speak, there are certainly others in the background (aiding and abetting various groups in different capacities) to say everyone in the theatre is "Islamic scum" is daft and shows ignorance on your part.

ISIS are not Islamic? LOL, tell me about how you know more about Islam then abu bakr al-baghdadi, who has a PhD in Islamic theology and has spent his whole life studying Islam. Good one mate....

The US admitted the moderate rebels dont exist as a fighting force on the ground last month. They have either fled, defected or been wiped out. Al Queda/Al Nusra/Taliban and ISIS are the only serious opposition left.

InTheTrees · 24-11-2015 04:03PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Russia has a long history of constantly letting their planes enter other countries' airspace.

Russian navigation equipment must be really useless.

here's a list of Russian incursions into other countries in 2014 alone:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/full-list-of-incidents-involving-russian-military-and-nato-since-march-2014-9851309.html

keithclancy · 24-11-2015 04:04PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

It crossed into Turkey for less then ten seconds, that is the issue, it wasnt doing loops in Turkey airspace, it briefly entered a piece of Turkey that juts into Syria, obviously being tracked the whole time(otherwise the Turks wouldnt have hit it) and then was shot down 3km later over Syria by a Turkish jet in Syria.

Well first the Russians said it was artillery, now it's a missile fired from an F-16. Nobody said the F-16 was ever in Syrian Airspace.

Also, they know now it was a Russian Jet, in the beginning they said it was 'unknown nationality'

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/strike/2015/11/24/turkey-shoots-down-russian-jet-syrian-border/76302108/

The Turkish military said the jet was of unknown nationality when the Turkish aircraft shot it down.

Also it's not the first time they shot down an aircraft that crossed into it's border, except the last time it didn't have any people on it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/16/us-mideast-crisis-turkey-warplane-idUSKCN0SA15K20151016

Turkish warplanes shot down an unidentified drone in Turkish air space near Syria on Friday and a U.S. official said Washington believed it was of Russian origin.

The Russian defense ministry said all of its planes in Syria had safely returned to base and that all its drones were operating "as planned".

The downing of the drone highlights the risks to NATO member Turkey as Syrian, Russian and U.S. coalition aircraft fly combat missions so close to its borders.

The Turkish military said its jets had shot down the aircraft after it continued on its trajectory despite three warnings, in line with its rules of engagement. Broadcaster NTV said it had come 3 km (1.9 miles) into Turkish air space.

Jelle1880 · 24-11-2015 04:06PM

InTheTrees wrote: »

Russian navigation equipment must be really useless.

here's a list of Russian incursions into other countries in 2014 alone:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/full-list-of-incidents-involving-russian-military-and-nato-since-march-2014-9851309.html

Not just that, but there's incidents even of Russian military planes entering airspace of South American countries, like Venezuela and Colombia.

BattleCorp · 24-11-2015 04:06PM

InTheTrees wrote: »

Russian navigation equipment must be really useless.

here's a list of Russian incursions into other countries in 2014 alone:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/full-list-of-incidents-involving-russian-military-and-nato-since-march-2014-9851309.html

What usually happens is that a few jets are scrambled and they are escorted out of the premises. No big deal.

Blowing one to smithereens in an act that could possibly lead to war, not a bright idea.

BoJack Horseman · 24-11-2015 04:06PM

aidan24326 wrote: »

It's possible. Typically planes emit so-called squawk codes which identify the plane as a civilian aircraft, military aircraft and so on, along with other information about that aircraft. But again this requires the transponder to be turned on. Without it, and unless you have a visual, then it's possible that the exact identity and intentions of an aircraft may not be known. The question here though is why the Turks were so quick on the trigger in terms of shooting the plane down rather than less drastic actions. They surely wouldn't deliberately provoke a military goliath like Russia unless there's a hidden agenda.

The F-16 has IFF abilities (identification of Friend or Foe).

Not sure what version the Turkish AF uses, but on the modern versions they are called "Bird slicers"!
(great name).

The turks knew what was out there

seamus · 24-11-2015 04:07PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Some "evidence"
That bit of Turkey is about 2 km wide so the airspace violation was at most a few tens of seconds.
A Su-24M 'Fencer' traveling at it's sea level speed of 1,320 km/h it would have been over Turkey for a grand total of 6.81 seconds.
At its high altitude speed of 2,317 km/h that's down to just 3.88 second.

You have accurate readings of all of this, I assume?

I'm not disagreeing with your figures, but you're assuming that the aircraft was travelling at these speeds and in a straight level line.

Name a single country in the civilised world that responds to a jet (non violently)violating their airspace in that manner? Show me some legal justification, there is none, Turkey just declared war on Russia and are hiding behind NATO's skirts.

There will be plenty tbh. Enter US airspace with an armed aircraft and refuse to identify yourself and you won't be in the sky for long. Of course they knew it was a Russian jet, but if it maintains radio silence what are they to do? Say, "Ah well, he's probably just passing through, let him go"?

I'm not disputing that this seems to be an overreaction, but to suggest that the Turks went out to start a fight is too simple.
Putin's statement which completely contradicts earlier official statements goes to prove that neither party can be trusted to talk truth in this matter.

jmayo · 24-11-2015 04:08PM

gandalf wrote: »

If that occurs and given the Russians have a number of war planes operating in the same theatre all that will happen is that the Turkmen rebels will suddenly get surface to air missiles that can threaten them (if they haven't already).

The Turkmen are under the protection of Turkey and by all acounts are getting CIA suppplies as well.
The kicker is they are fighting in an area along side an al-qeada affiliate.

Yakkyda wrote: »

Not exactly true,if you really think that, you seem to have very little grasp of the situation imo.
The Syrian civil war has been going on now for nearly four years. The rebels are fighting on two fronts, against daesh and the assad regime. Assads crowd are in turn doing the same, against the rebels and daesh. Russia is backing assad bombing the rebels and daesh(when it suits) the US are nominally supporting the rebels whilst bombing daesh. The kurdish are fighting a ground war against daesh and doing a bloody good job considering the resources they have to hand. They're battle hardened veterans that seem to have a good command structure, tactics and troop discipline, but they can only do so much. They push daesh back as far Syria, they won't push further, they just want their territory back an autonomous region, mostly in Iraq I believe.

Meanwhile daesh scum (not "Islamic scum", just scum) are picking fights with all and sundry, ffs the tali ban don't won't anything to do with them.

That's it, as succinctly as I can put it for you, they are the main players on the field so to speak, there are certainly others in the background (aiding and abetting various groups in different capacities) to say everyone in the theatre is "Islamic scum" is daft and shows ignorance on your part.

Ehh you forgot to mention the Turks have been bombing the Kurds.
Thus they are helping ISIS/daesh.

And the Turks have been backing Free Syrian Army of which one member seems to be Turkmen rebels in north of country.

BattleCorp wrote: »

I doubt this will blow up into a wide scale war between Russia and Nato. Turkey have made a powerful enemy though and Russia won't let them away scot-free.

I'd fully expect the Kurds to mysteriously have access to some of Russia's modern toys in the very near future. I wouldn't fancy being a Turkish pilot operating anywhere the Kurds in the future.

Another thing that this incident will do is to focus the world's attention on how Turkey are failing to tackle ISIS. In fact, it appears that Turkey are actually aiding ISIS and that won't be forgotten in a hurry.

They have been attacking Kurds who are the most successful anti ISIS force on the ground.

Gatling · 24-11-2015 04:11PM

Have the rebels shot down helicopter too

gandalf · 24-11-2015 04:12PM

TBH the Russians were naive in the extreme to expect no issues in this area given the recent history of planes being shot down by both sides.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/turkey-vows-action-after-syria-shoots-down-jet-1.1236021

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-26706417

http://www.ibtimes.com/turkey-shoots-down-syrian-jet-violating-air-space-report-1925628

Jelle1880 · 24-11-2015 04:14PM

Gatling wrote: »

Have the rebels shot down helicopter too

Seems like it, a helicopter was fired upon by rebels.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12013212/Turkey-shoots-down-Russian-military-plane-on-Syria-border-live.html

In what appears to be a separate incident, another Syrian rebel group - the Free Syrian Army’s First Coastal Division - says it has hit a Russia helicopter on Turkmen Mountain, using a TOW anti-tank missile, writes Louisa Loveluck, Middle East Correspondent.

keithclancy · 24-11-2015 04:15PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The F-16 has IFF abilities (identification of Friend or Foe).

Not sure what version the Turkish AF uses, but on the modern versions they are called "Bird slicers"!
(great name).

The turks knew what was out there

Unless the other plane has a compatible IFF System that's turned on then it doesn't work.

http://theconversation.com/do-russias-flying-bears-really-pose-a-risk-to-civilian-air-traffic-38119

Russia’s Bears, on the other hand, turn off their IFF transponders so as to maintain the element of surprise. This prompts British air defences, using active radar to sweep the skies, to detect and respond to them as an unknown potential threat. It also means they are invisible to civilian air traffic control and invisible to other aircraft in the sky – unless close enough to be seen by pilots and crew themselves.

Considering the age of the SU-24 and that it possible had an elastic band holding the sat nav to the dashboard I think it's pretty likely it either didn't have a compatible system or it was turned off.

BoJack Horseman · 24-11-2015 04:15PM

Gatling wrote: »

Have the rebels shot down helicopter too

This purports to be the incident (courtesy of Hmmm in politics forum).... seems very well edited though, could be legit, or could be an oldie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IschF-ihjS0

BoJack Horseman · 24-11-2015 04:18PM

keithclancy wrote: »

Unless the other plane has a compatible IFF System that's turned on then it doesn't work.

I got this from F-16.net... no response implies foe?

All F-16's carry an IFF system, friend or foe is detedrmined by a preset frequency or identification number changed daily, when another plane is spotted it is hailed by the IFF system, a response is sent if it's friendly, if it's not the other guy never even knows he's been lased. All of this without the pilot moving a finger

Gatling · 24-11-2015 04:22PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

This purports to be the incident (courtesy of Hmmm in politics forum).... seems very well edited though, could be legit, or could be an oldie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IschF-ihjS0

Doesnt look like a Hind ,

We see two flying over at the beginning ,
I'm in between on this one

Gazzmonkey · 24-11-2015 04:23PM

Gatling wrote: »

Have the rebels shot down helicopter too

Read reports in the last hour that a Russian chopper trying to rescue the downed jet pilots were themselves downed by rebel forces

Syria is a very interesting place to be these days

Gatling · 24-11-2015 04:25PM

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

Read reports in the last hour that a Russian chopper trying to rescue the downed jet pilots were themselves downed by rebel forces

Syria is a very interesting place to be these days

Last time russia lost two in one day was in Georgia, chechnia ,

InTheTrees · 24-11-2015 04:26PM

Transponders send out an identification code.

You dont disappear off radar if you turn off the transponder. Its not some kind of advanced stealth technology. When the stories talk about being "invisible" to controllers they mean the blip on the radar is unidentified.

Yakkyda · 24-11-2015 04:26PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

ISIS are not Islamic? LOL, tell me about how you know more about Islam then abu bakr al-baghdadi, who has a PhD in Islamic theology and has spent his whole life studying Islam. Good one mate....

The US admitted the moderate rebels dont exist as a fighting force on the ground last month. They have either fled, defected or been wiped out. Al Queda/Al Nusra/Taliban and ISIS are the only serious opposition left.

I never said daesh weren't Islamic, I pointed out that they were scum, and just because that wacko has a PhD, his interpretation of Islam is twisted beyond belief, vastly different to the vast, vast majority of people who practice islam. Alqueda (the main organisation, not it's splinter groups) have publicly declared war on daesh, citing that they are too extreme. The Syrian rebels are seriously depleted, definitely. But assad is still fighting both them and daesh. The main players are the kurdish, daesh, Syria and to a lesser extent the Syrian rebels. The US and Russia are basically fighting a proxy war the garner influence in a unstable region rich in oil. France are at war with daesh now. Until one of the major powers or a coalition of them put troops on the ground, daesh aren't going anywhere soon. A decent force of ground troops would completely destroy them in a matter of months, then just let assad sort his own house out. Nobody wants to do that seemingly.

JPNelsforearm · 24-11-2015 04:28PM

seamus wrote: »

You have accurate readings of all of this, I assume?

I'm not disagreeing with your figures, but you're assuming that the aircraft was travelling at these speeds and in a straight level line.
There will be plenty tbh. Enter US airspace with an armed aircraft and refuse to identify yourself and you won't be in the sky for long. Of course they knew it was a Russian jet, but if it maintains radio silence what are they to do? Say, "Ah well, he's probably just passing through, let him go"?

I'm not disputing that this seems to be an overreaction, but to suggest that the Turks went out to start a fight is too simple.
Putin's statement which completely contradicts earlier official statements goes to prove that neither party can be trusted to talk truth in this matter.

Well Im using CNN's GPS track of the aircraft which is straight, and speeds of the aircraft, even allowing for some deviation point, to the time in Turkish airspace in seconds, wheather thats under ten(at maximum speeds) or under twenty at cruising, its still not a rational or legal response to an aircraft flying though/over your territory.
The aircraft was back in Syrian territory when it was shot down, there is no justification, if has to be pre planned provocation.

keithclancy · 24-11-2015 04:28PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I got this from F-16.net... no response implies foe?

No response means unidentified as the Turkish said in the very beginning.

Wizard! · 24-11-2015 04:30PM

seamus wrote: »

There will be plenty tbh. Enter US airspace with an armed aircraft and refuse to identify yourself and you won't be in the sky for long. Of course they knew it was a Russian jet, but if it maintains radio silence what are they to do? Say, "Ah well, he's probably just passing through, let him go"?

Between Greece & Turkey, there are more than 10 incidents every week. On the exact date, 24 Nov 2006, Turks killed a Greek pilot and said it was an accident. Turkey always does that, and hides behind NATO skirts. Their president declared before a few weeks that they will shoot down any Russian aircraft (he did not say anything about radio silence though...). So, it was on purpose and they know that Putin will not declare war against NATO.

Turkey shoots down Russian fighter plane

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