Turkey shoots down Russian fighter plane

gandalf · 24-11-2015 01:49PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Could be....

Here is what the SU-24s are equipped with

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/these-russian-attack-jets-use-walmart-grade-gps-systems-1703048443

Jaysus I feel sorry for the Russian pilots if that's what they have to work with!

StudentDad · 24-11-2015 01:58PM

jmayo wrote: »

There is no probably to it.
The Turks helped start the whole thing by backing rebels in Syria.
They openly host the Syrian political opposition and leaders of the Free Syrian Army.

And how the hell have ISIS managed to get stuff like refinery equipment if not through Turkey.
Also how did all those foreign fighters get in and out of ISIS controlled territory ?

Erdogan would love to get into Syria, but NATO allies like US and UK don't have the stomach for another Afghanistan.
There is also fact that Syria's allies Russia, China and Iran might just start backing the PKK and Kurdish separatists could kick off again.

Then there are the econimic threats to Turkey.
They are second largest consumer of Russian gas and that is where they get most of their oil.
They have huge trade with each other.
Then if the Kurdish separatists were to kick off again it would jeopardise Turkey's important tourist industry.

Okay, you seem to have a bit of an axe to grind on this one. That aside, whether you like it or not, Syria is in Turkeys back yard and they are acting as they see fit. You don't have to like the way they are playing the game. The bald truth is that they are acting in their best interests. If it isn't in their interest to support the US or any other foreign power that is their choice. We don't have to live there, they do. As regards Russia sticking their oar in. They are in Syria at the request of the govt. of Syria, for good or ill. Again this is just background stuff, it provides a context. Brutal and inhuman context but that's war.

At the end of the day, Russian war planes engaged in conflict in Syria wandered into the sovereign airspace of Turkey, failed to heed warnings given and were shot down. Was it a good idea? That remains to be seen. Were they within their rights? It would appear so.

SD

keithclancy · 24-11-2015 02:03PM

gandalf wrote: »

Jaysus I feel sorry for the Russian pilots if that's what they have to work with!

Recalculating .... turn around when possible.....

Buona Fortuna · 24-11-2015 02:09PM

keithclancy wrote: »

Recalculating .... turn around when possible.....

Wonder if they're even signed up for the map updates and speed cameras.

24-11-2015 02:20PM

Turkey is helping IS in their war with the Kurds, they also buy IS oil and very lax border control to stop IS members returning to Europe.

JPNelsforearm · 24-11-2015 02:23PM

keithclancy wrote: »

They warned them already, how many second/minutes are ok by the way?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/05/turkey-says-russian-warplane-violated-airspace

Well, you'd use common sense, if Turkey had secured its border from militant activity Russia wouldnt have a leg to stand on, as it is, fighter and supplies go back and forth across the border, Russia/Syria has a right to attack Islamists who try and hide over the border, just like the US does in Pakistan. You dont see the Pakistanis shooting down US jets for doing the same thing.

gandalf · 24-11-2015 02:23PM

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

Wonder if they're even signed up for the map updates and speed cameras.

That's the 2016 budget!

Inquitus · 24-11-2015 02:24PM

It appears it was inside Turkish airspace if this is to be believed and based on the Russian GPS Solution above it wouldn't surprise anyone.

24-11-2015 02:26PM

StudentDad wrote: »

At the end of the day, Russian war planes engaged in conflict in Syria wandered into the sovereign airspace of Turkey, failed to heed warnings given and were shot down. Was it a good idea? That remains to be seen. Were they within their rights? It would appear so.

SD

Is this 100% true or is it too soon to say?

Baggy Trousers · 24-11-2015 02:30PM

6781 wrote: »

Turkey is helping IS in their war with the Kurds, they also buy IS oil and very lax border control to stop IS members returning to Europe.

You gotta feel sorry for those Kurds. They're always at war with someone.

blue5000 · 24-11-2015 02:33PM

'Turkey shoots down bomber' Is this revenge for thanksgiving?

JPNelsforearm · 24-11-2015 02:33PM

6781 wrote: »

Is this 100% true or is it too soon to say?

It was shot down over Syria, you cant enter sovereign airspace to shoot down another jet even if he violated your airspace, that is not defence, its an act of war. There is no legal ground for downing an aircraft that has shown no violent intent. I hope Russia Groznys the **** out of the turkish border defence in retaliation

24-11-2015 02:34PM

blue5000 wrote: »

'Turkey shoots down bomber' Is this revenge for thanksgiving?

Russians don't celebrate Thanksgiving, FYI.

StudentDad · 24-11-2015 02:37PM

6781 wrote: »

Is this 100% true or is it too soon to say?

I know as much as anyone else. It'll be argued over in the media etc. Time will tell as they say.

SD

seamus · 24-11-2015 02:39PM

6781 wrote: »

Is this 100% true or is it too soon to say?

Too soon to say, but so far the Turks are the only ones who've presented any kind of evidence.

jmayo · 24-11-2015 02:41PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Could be....

Here is what the SU-24s are equipped with

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/these-russian-attack-jets-use-walmart-grade-gps-systems-1703048443

Don't knock those things.
I flew in old PZL Wilga (nice old agrarian aircraft) in Latvia and the pilot used one of those things to make sure we didn't go into Russian airspace.

He was worried about getting caught by jets if he ended up in their airspace.
Funny to think the jets were possibly using the same GPSs to know where they were.

JPNelsforearm · 24-11-2015 02:50PM

seamus wrote: »

Too soon to say, but so far the Turks are the only ones who've presented any kind of evidence.

Some "evidence"
That bit of Turkey is about 2 km wide so the airspace violation was at most a few tens of seconds.
A Su-24M 'Fencer' traveling at it's sea level speed of 1,320 km/h it would have been over Turkey for a grand total of 6.81 seconds.
At its high altitude speed of 2,317 km/h that's down to just 3.88 second.

Name a single country in the civilised world that responds to a jet (non violently)violating their airspace in that manner? Show me some legal justification, there is none, Turkey just declared war on Russia and are hiding behind NATO's skirts.

BoJack Horseman · 24-11-2015 02:50PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

I hope Russia Groznys the **** out of the turkish border defence in retaliation

That would involve finding a small city & killing & injuring tens of thousands of civilians.

Probably not proportionate & probably not on the cards!

BoJack Horseman · 24-11-2015 02:53PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Some "evidence"
That bit of Turkey is about 2 km wide so the airspace violation was at most a few tens of seconds.
A Su-24M 'Fencer' traveling at it's sea level speed of 1,320 km/h it would have been over Turkey for a grand total of 6.81 seconds.
At its high altitude speed of 2,317 km/h that's down to just 3.88 second.

More information is needed from the authorities.

Looking at pictures, the wings were in their forward position so the plane was not at maximum speed.... however the 2-3km gap would have been traversed within a 30 seconds no matter what speed the plane was at.

the Turks need to clarify when they started to give warnings & where the Russian plane was when those instructions were given.

gandalf · 24-11-2015 02:56PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

That would involve finding a small city & killing & injuring tens of thousands of civilians.

Probably not proportionate & probably not on the cards!

And if it does happen Russia are in a shooting war with NATO.

Maybe Russia should stay away from the Turkish border in future thereby avoiding this kind of incident again

BoJack Horseman · 24-11-2015 02:57PM

Meanwhile Russia has changed its story and acknowledged that it was an air-to-air shootdown

Stinicker · 24-11-2015 02:58PM

Erdogan is an Islamist and he is directly funding and supplying weapons to Islamic State; he is trying to destroy the peaceful and Secular Turkey as laidout by Attaturk. Putin will retaliate and rightly so, this ain't your granddaddys Russia and what we saw today was just another potshot in the new ColdWar.

kfrp · 24-11-2015 02:59PM

Not good, from the Irish times

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/putin-furious-at-stab-in-the-back-from-turkey-1.2441949

"Mr Putin said the Russian SU-24 jet was shot by a missile from a Turkish jet over Syria about one kilometre away from the Turkish border, which he described as a “stab in the back by the terrorists’ accomplices”.

MPFGLB · 24-11-2015 03:00PM

Turkey role with ISIS

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/18/turkey-cut-islamic-state-supply-lines-erdogan-isis?CMP=share_btn_tw

flazio · 24-11-2015 03:03PM

Turkey shoots Russian fighter jet?
Where did the Turkey get the gun and what was Russia doing using a Fighter jet to get Christmas (or Thanksgiving) dinner?

bear1 · 24-11-2015 03:06PM

flazio wrote: »

Turkey shoots Russian fighter jet?
Where did the Turkey get the gun and what was Russia doing using a Fighter jet to get Christmas (or Thanksgiving) dinner?

this type of joke has been done to death at this stage.

keithclancy · 24-11-2015 03:06PM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Some "evidence"
That bit of Turkey is about 2 km wide so the airspace violation was at most a few tens of seconds.
A Su-24M 'Fencer' traveling at it's sea level speed of 1,320 km/h it would have been over Turkey for a grand total of 6.81 seconds.
At its high altitude speed of 2,317 km/h that's down to just 3.88 second.

Name a single country in the civilised world that responds to a jet (non violently)violating their airspace in that manner? Show me some legal justification, there is none, Turkey just declared war on Russia and are hiding behind NATO's skirts.

Doesn't work like that, it's RADAR not GPS, they only get an indication of it's course and bearing with each radar sweep.

All they knew was it was heading for Turkish Airspace and then was in Turkish airspace after repeated warnings.

Also there was no way to tell what nationality the Aircraft was as they don't have Transponders that are turned on so how could you declare war on a country if you had no clue what country the plane was from.

Already happened with Syrian Jets.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/24/us-syria-crisis-airplane-idUSBREA2M09X20140324

StewartGriffin · 24-11-2015 03:10PM

keithclancy wrote: »

Doesn't work like that, it's RADAR not GPS, they only get an indication of it's course and bearing with each radar sweep.

All they knew was it was heading for Turkish Airspace and then was in Turkish airspace after repeated warnings.

Also there was no way to tell what nationality the Aircraft was as they don't have Transponders that are turned on so how could you declare war on a country if you had no clue what country the plane was from.

Already happened with Syrian Jets.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/24/us-syria-crisis-airplane-idUSBREA2M09X20140324

I think it's fairly obvious that they knew it was a Russian jet. They have warned them in the past week, Russia didn't heed, and now they shot one down.
I doubt even Turkey will pretend they thought it was someone elses jet.

keithclancy · 24-11-2015 03:12PM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

I think it's fairly obvious that they knew it was a Russian jet. They have warned them in the past week, Russia didn't heed, and now they shot one down.
I doubt even Turkey will pretend they thought it was someone elses jet.

Explain how please.

FalconGirl · 24-11-2015 03:13PM

Weighing it all up, I would probably side with the Russians here. That is something I would not have said a year ago.

Turkey shoots down Russian fighter plane

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