Bullet proof reliability

Colser · 20-11-2015 07:10PM

Is it just the 5 speed cars that are affected walus?

walus · 20-11-2015 08:41PM

I'm after restarting this topic on Polish forum Subaru. I asked for opinion guys who know boxer diesels inside out. One is a dealer himself, the other independent mechanic with huge experience. So far I managed to get a price of a short block: 3.5-4k euros. The thing with labour is that every case is slightly different so it is hard to estimate. My knowledge on this is 2 years old as I swapped my Legacy for FR-V and haven't been frequent on the forum there. I'll keep on asking we will see what info I can gather.

selous · 20-11-2015 09:11PM

I was told the shortblock costs about E4.5K here,

I was in contact with a guy in England about a recon engine with upgraded crankshaft in it, I got a price of £5000, but NOT including the injectors, shipping or fitting.

Think I'm making a few Subaru drivers nervous now, sorry guys/girls.

gctest50 · 20-11-2015 10:20PM

new n used subaru diesel engines , might be worth a call

http://www.roadnrace.co.uk/EE20-DIESEL-ENGINE.html

walus · 20-11-2015 11:36PM

OK this is what I managed to gather so far:
1. Crankshaft failure is a combination of a number of factors: dual mass flywheel and clutch condition, new or old software more so than a 5MT or 6MT gearbox, driving style, regular oil changes and injector maintenance.
1.A. DMF - knackered and worn out flywheel and clutch put a lot of stress on crankshaft. From what I know at 140k kilometres DMF and clutch are way overdue replacement in 08/09. Replacing the set does not ensure that the engine will avoid the failure. The damage to the bearings and crankshaft is most likely already done.
1.B. Subaru tuned the engine very aggressively with the maximum torque available as low as 1800 rpm. A lot of drivers had issues with conking the engine in the traffic jam etc and Subaru released a software update that moved the high torque higher up in the rev range. The take off was happening way smoother after that. Other than the driver experience what they did was put a lot less load on the crankshaft moving away with the top torque from its natural resonance frequency. In the more modern engines after the cold start the torque levels are additionally restricted to protect the crankshaft until the engine oil is warmed up to its normal temperature.
1.C. Driving style. Prolonged driving at high gear with low revs seriously strains the crankshaft especially when DMF is already on its last legs and one puts his foot down to accelerate from very low revs. It is better to use gears efficiently and keep the revs above 2k. That is true for any engine though and you can spot it when driving a car with automatic gearbox. Say when you want to accelerate from 1600 rpm to overtake instead of staying in the gear the box will drop it down to make sure the required acceleration is performed efficiently. If you do the same in any car with manual gearbox and keep it in a high gear the crankshaft would not be very happy camper.
1.D. Regular oil changes and injector maintenance. Frequent oil changes are a must for a modern diesel. Every 15k is a max in my opinion. If the injectors are dirty or out of calibration they may in certain cases supply too much fuel to the engine. This fuel is then not properly burnt and mixes with engine oil degrading its properties. The oil level rises end engine does not receive the required protection.

2. There was a batch of engines in the early days that were manufactured with assembly silicon that was blocking partially the oil channels.

3. There is a way to diagnose if the engine is already affected by a strained crankshaft symptom. Presence of metal shavings in the oil filter is an early sign of that. Some of the shavings can be as big as 3-4mm. Also the crankshaft will have an axial play (in and out rather than up and down or left and right sort of thing) and there will be a knock present similar to one that suggests worn out DMF. This one however is there irrespectively of whether the clutch is depressed or not.
If any of this signed are present the crankshaft will go for sure.

If I get more info I throw it here later.

walus · 21-11-2015 10:52AM

@selous, the fact that the dealer supplies parts at their cost is a very positive thing. I do not know how what they charge for labour but judging on the excess of damage to your engine it could easily take a week. Ask the dealer to list out exactly what needs to be done and ring UK to confirm the man-hour they would quote. I think it is better to rebuild it with new parts as you should get 2 year warranty with it. Bear in Ming though that you will need new clutch and flywheel which may not be covered for parts and labour by the dealer.

selous · 21-11-2015 11:47AM

gctest50 wrote: »

new n used subaru diesel engines , might be worth a call

http://www.roadnrace.co.uk/EE20-DIESEL-ENGINE.html

That's the guy I got the quote of £5000stg off, no injectors,

thanks for taking the time to get in touch, appreciate it.

selous · 21-11-2015 12:00PM

Walus.

Thanks for all that, what an expensive cock up though, for the driver, when you notice it, it's too late kind of thing.

I never went near the engine myself, it was all done by the one dealer, at the 15km service and the big one every 60km
I did notice something different in the last service bill in comparison to the others, only 5lt of oil was charged for, all the others were 7lt or 6lt and 1lt of additive, I'm curious now did 5lt fill it, if it was, how come the mechanic didn't notice, would there be a 2lt blockage in an engine, or did the just not charge me for the 7lt, and im now too suspicious.

In the early stage when I rang the garage the guy said he only knew of one before and it wasn't as bad as mine, but I had rang a mechanic friend of mine, and he said it happened to a car he sold, and he had to stand over it he was quoted 9k to fix, but got an engine in from UK cheaper, customer was happy with that.

But my garage knew about this guy too, so that was 2 he knew of, not one.

Thank for the information, it's all very surprising and useful, my choice when I was buying this car was this and the Octavia vrs, but chose this for its reputation on reliability, damn.

Lex Luthor · 21-11-2015 05:05PM

walus wrote: »

OK this is what I managed to gather so far:
1. Crankshaft failure is a combination of a number of factors: dual mass flywheel and clutch condition, new or old software more so than a 5MT or 6MT gearbox, driving style, regular oil changes and injector maintenance.
1.A. DMF - knackered and worn out flywheel and clutch put a lot of stress on crankshaft. From what I know at 140k kilometres DMF and clutch are way overdue replacement in 08/09. Replacing the set does not ensure that the engine will avoid the failure. The damage to the bearings and crankshaft is most likely already done.
1.B. Subaru tuned the engine very aggressively with the maximum torque available as low as 1800 rpm. A lot of drivers had issues with conking the engine in the traffic jam etc and Subaru released a software update that moved the high torque higher up in the rev range. The take off was happening way smoother after that. Other than the driver experience what they did was put a lot less load on the crankshaft moving away with the top torque from its natural resonance frequency. In the more modern engines after the cold start the torque levels are additionally restricted to protect the crankshaft until the engine oil is warmed up to its normal temperature.
1.C. Driving style. Prolonged driving at high gear with low revs seriously strains the crankshaft especially when DMF is already on its last legs and one puts his foot down to accelerate from very low revs. It is better to use gears efficiently and keep the revs above 2k. That is true for any engine though and you can spot it when driving a car with automatic gearbox. Say when you want to accelerate from 1600 rpm to overtake instead of staying in the gear the box will drop it down to make sure the required acceleration is performed efficiently. If you do the same in any car with manual gearbox and keep it in a high gear the crankshaft would not be very happy camper.
1.D. Regular oil changes and injector maintenance. Frequent oil changes are a must for a modern diesel. Every 15k is a max in my opinion. If the injectors are dirty or out of calibration they may in certain cases supply too much fuel to the engine. This fuel is then not properly burnt and mixes with engine oil degrading its properties. The oil level rises end engine does not receive the required protection.

2. There was a batch of engineers in the early days that were manufactured with assembly silicon that was blocking partially the oil channels.

3. There is a way to diagnose if the engine is already affected by a strained crankshaft symptom. Presence of metal shavings in the oil filter is an early sign of that. Some of the shavings can be as big as 3-4mm. Also the crankshaft will have an axial play (in and out rather than up and down or left and right sort of thing) and there will be a knock present similar to one that suggests worn out DMF. This one however is there irrespective lily of whether the clutch is depressed or not.
If any of this signed are present the crankshaft will go for sure.

If I get more info I throw it here later.

thanks a million for this....I'll bring the car back to my dealer soon with this info and get it fully checked

I don't want to have to sell this on or car gone, as I love driving it

selous · 23-11-2015 07:27PM

Just looking at a Subaru enthusiast site another one bites the dust in Scotland last week.

Colser · 23-11-2015 08:00PM

selous wrote: »

Just looking at a Subaru enthusiast site another one bites the dust in Scotland last week.

Did you message him to compare your story? Should the cars have been recalled and checked by Subaru?

walus · 24-11-2015 12:24PM

I had a one guy on the forum say that he changed the DMF and clutch in his boxer diesel and AL content in the oil analysis dropped to a quarter the amount from the time before the replacement. He did that at about 120k kilometres and said that even though there was no obvious signs for the DMF to be wearing the thing was knackered when they took it out. This guy though changes oil meticulously at 10k kilometres and sends samples for oil analysis.
I suspect that dealers know exactly what is causing the issue as they are linked to FHI very closely but do not want to spread the information for two reasons: one is that it does not do any good to the brand image, two they want to keep all those owners of diesel engines coming back for servicing long after the warranty expires. In Poland Subaru extended the engine warranty on those diesels to 5 ears or 150k kilometres whichever comes first. The presumption there is to keep the car serviced at the dealer as he would help to avoid the big bang. Worst case if it happens FHI will participate in the cost of the repair.
Interesting thing is that in Sweden it affected engines between 60-80k kilometres, in Poland 100-140k while in Ireland I suspect it would be at 160k and more. Is this to do with outside temperatures and is connected to engine lubrication I wonder?

selous · 24-11-2015 03:25PM

That's odd, but you're spot on, mine went at 156k km, 6000km after its last service, only a normal service and nothing to report to me, only extra thing done was intake manifold was scraped clean, as engine light was on and that was the problem on the diagnostics. so regular servicing didn't seem to prevent it happening to mine.
Im flippin raging about this, let me tell you.

walus · 24-11-2015 03:43PM

selous wrote: »

That's odd, but you're spot on, mine went at 156k km, 6000km after its last service, only a normal service and nothing to report to me, only extra thing done was intake manifold was scraped clean, as engine light was on and that was the problem on the diagnostics. so regular servicing didn't seem to prevent it happening to mine.
Im flippin raging about this, let me tell you.

I can only imagine that you must be going mad about this. This is a Subaru after all. The reports from Sweden suggest to be saying that this extra drop of silicon that was supposed to be blocking lubrication channels in the block was only for a narrow batch of cars in 08 or 09. They also say that in those years the crankshaft bearing/bearings were found to be of too tight tolerance.
Sources from Poland seem to suggest the DMF/clutch is to be blamed for excessive vibrations being put on the crankshaft that is already under massive pressure from the 350nm of torque available as low as 1800 rpm. Anyone there that poses a question how to avoid a big bang in his boxer diesel is advised to check the DMF condition. This however is not limited only to 08/09 cars but goes as far as 11/12MY.
Judging that in a very cold Sweden and only seasonally cold Poland these engines lasted 80 and 120k kilometres in average made me think it must be to do with engine wear at the start-up and shortly after. It is well known that diesel engines are very efficient and need a lot longer to get to normal operating temperature. In even less cold Ireland same engine simply lasts even longer.
Subaru dealers in Ireland are disadvantaged on one hand by the limited experience that they have in repairing such a complex problem. They might not know themselves how to diagnose a DMF that needs replacement without taking off the gearbox.
I owned Legacy 2.0 petrol MY04 for a number of years and loved it. However at 120k kilometres I had to get rid of the DMF and clutch as both were knackered. I was not surprised as it was an AWD after all and the clutch is always at the receiving end between the engine and traction. I do not understand how you guys can make the same thing last longer in essentially same car with far more torque?

selous · 24-11-2015 04:07PM

Mine was 80% motor/dual-carriageway, not traffic lights and city driving, only 1 set of replacement brake pads front n rear used, (Subaru too) so I wasn't doing stop start driving, 4th set of tyres though.

I was told 3weeks ago the car should be ready to roll end of the month, but I haven't heard a thing from the garage at all in 2 weeks, when they were supposed to ring me back about the cost, He said I didn't have to decide about a clutch at the time of discussion 3wk ago, as they would clean it up and see what it was like and let me know, hmmm, nothing yet.

ianobrien · 24-11-2015 04:57PM

Well, if the engine is out, in my opinion it would be silly not to change the clutch. All it will cost is the clutch itself, rather than later on where you would be paying for the labour to get at it.

selous · 24-11-2015 07:26PM

I know, E400 instead of E1800, but I would like him to be keeping me informed of whats going on or what he's doing, not a surprise at the end.

walus · 24-11-2015 08:24PM

If they end up not replacing the DMF and clutch after all this it will mean they have no idea what they are at. I would call into the dealer and request an update on the situation. Whoever is paying for this you are entitled to know what is happening with your car.. It's your property after all.

Colser · 24-11-2015 10:16PM

Would it be worth emailing Subaru Ireland and asking if there is anything can be checked in the cars to avoid this happening as it seems to be a known fault? Id be interested to know what they would say or will they only correspond directly with dealers?

selous · 25-11-2015 06:22PM

I rang a few Subaru Ireland times, wouldn't deal with me, first was when the car went bump, I was told send in an email with what happened, they didn't even have the courtesy to acknowledge it, I rang again to see if they received it, I was told we don't deal with the public, it's done thru your garage, I ONLY WANT TO KNOW DID YOU GET MY EMAIL, and it wasn't acknowledged, (No, I didn't shout, inside I was though)

Lex Luthor · 25-11-2015 06:57PM

selous wrote: »

I rang a few Subaru Ireland times, wouldn't deal with me, first was when the car went bump, I was told send in an email with what happened, they didn't even have the courtesy to acknowledge it, I rang again to see if they received it, I was told we don't deal with the public, it's done thru your garage, I ONLY WANT TO KNOW DID YOU GET MY EMAIL, and it wasn't acknowledged, (No, I didn't shout, inside I was though)

disgraceful...!!!

CJhaughey · 25-11-2015 07:10PM

I would make it clear that you are going public with this, through a motoring journalist or a consumer rights organisation and publicise this issue more.
I really hate how importers think they can just fob people off with these kind of offhand comments when its a huge investment for most people.
I would have considered Subaru to be a reasonable sort of car but judging by these problems and the way they are being dealt with I would not buy one.

walus · 25-11-2015 08:49PM

It looks like Subaru are not helping themselves Selling cars in Ireland. Not only their bullet proof reliability perception gets seriously damaged with their first boxer diesel but now they are alienating the customers by their unusually unfriendly customer support. This plus the fact that Subaru cars in Ireland are seriously overpriced will ensure their sales will go south. What are they thinking?

cerastes · 26-11-2015 03:33AM

CJhaughey wrote: »

I would make it clear that you are going public with this, through a motoring journalist or a consumer rights organisation and publicise this issue more.
I really hate how importers think they can just fob people off with these kind of offhand comments when its a huge investment for most people.
I would have considered Subaru to be a reasonable sort of car but judging by these problems and the way they are being dealt with I would not buy one.

I had a similar kind of fob me off attitude with another importer, but to a much lesser extent, essentially I was told main dealers are independent franchises and the importer is just an importer and holds no power over the dealers, which seems to undermine the "you come to us for reliability, customer support/satisfaction and peace of mind" I might not be in a position to buy a new car but I know who I will avoid, ie main dealers, they seem to have a stuffy snobby air about them.

Lex Luthor wrote: »

disgraceful...!!!

It is but at least then op has informed us, its something to be aware of

Lex Luthor · 26-11-2015 06:11AM

cerastes wrote: »

It is but at least then op has informed us, its something to be aware of

My "disgraceful" comment is referring to the way he was treated

CJhaughey · 26-11-2015 07:35AM

Its strange to see a Japanese car importer behaving this badly.
Usually they are top of the class for dealing with issues like this. maybe because they are smaller they don't have the will or amount of cars to deal with the issue in a reasonable manner.
Toyota were replacing whole short blocks when they had oil consumption issues in the early VVTi models. Here cranks are going bang and they are stalling and not engaging with affected people.
Its really disgusting behaviour.

cerastes · 26-11-2015 10:56AM

Lex Luthor wrote: »

My "disgraceful" comment is referring to the way he was treated

I understood that's what you meant

walus · 26-11-2015 11:04AM

I do understand that the response from Subaru Importer is unacceptable. However don't you think that it is the dealer who should keep selous updated with any new development or when asked by him? I can sort of understand that the importer wants to avoid dealing with the customer as such. What I cannot understand is why dealer is not doing his job when it comes to customer support and after warranty services.

selous · 26-11-2015 05:33PM

popped in to see the dealer today, he had a surprise for me when I asked how the 5k estimate was broken up, he told me......, that I need a clutch and I said "and fly wheel I presume" emmm yes, because it was worn, exactly as it has been described here by Walus, (how surprised was I?) an extra E1200, so the repair will cost the exact same as one I seen advertised on website a few weeks ago, he advertised
RECIEPTS AND WARRANTY ON NEW PARTS.NEW INJECTORS,TURBO + CLUTCH/FLYWHEEL.JUST THROUGH NCT, FULLY SERVICED.RECIEPTS FOR OVER 6.000€
Is it a set price to rebuild?
Although, the turbo hasn't been mentioned on mine......yet.

walus · 26-11-2015 08:33PM

@selous what exactly are you supposed to paying for? Parts or labour, or a little bit of both. I'm not surprised he says that the DMF and clutch need to be replaced. I saw mine after 120k kilometres in non-turbo petrol Legacy. The bearing was about to pop and flywheel had too much play. The friction plate was still good though. I think Subaru uses Sachs dmf and clutch. The price he is quoting looks like for parts alone, surely he cannot be charging 1200 euros for a job that takes 5 hours?

Bullet proof reliability

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