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Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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Comments

  • #5192
    Custardpi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Custardpi


    Baggy Trousers wrote: »
    Bannasidhe, you come across as the most informed poster on this thread. Do you mind me asking, how you think this issue should be solved? Long term.

    Good debate on VB now. I have to agree with some of the panel who reckon bombing Syria will only make things worse. They reckon the bombing and civilian deaths are pushing desperate/angry people into ISIS in huge numbers. They were also saying 30,000 foreign people from 100 different countries have joined ISIS.

    Which is to fundamentally misunderstand what ISIS are doing & what they aim for. While instability on the ground could certainly push Sunnis already in Iraq/Syria into the arms of ISIS as protection against attacks by Shia, the reality is that ISIS are less about revenge against the West than a purification of Islam & the building of a 7th century style ideal state or "Caliphate".

    The cruelty inflicted on Muslims by ISIS, especially non Sunnis but also simply those who don't toe the line would not seem to be something one would see from people simply aggrieved against mistreatment by the West. While Western policies have certainly contributed to the rise of ISIS, they should be properly understood as a product of those failures rather than a reaction to them.


  • #5193
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,058 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Apologies if this has alreafy been mentioned but for all the talk of whatever has or hasn't happened in Hannover tonight, what definitely happened elsewhere is that 32 people were blown to Kingdom Come at a market in the Nigerian city of Yola thia evening. Boko Haram are being blamed.


  • #5194
    MPFGLB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭MPFGLB


    Saipanne wrote: »
    Christ on a bike. Who do you think IS are emulating? They have openly stated this. I must have mentioned this fifty times by now. I know you have read my posts, so why do you pretend not to understand? I think you might be screwing around here.

    Typical behind the curve thinking

    Most people in Syria are either in ISIS already or are fighting against them or have fled..the vast majority in the latter 2 categories ...people were not waiting for Russian or french bombers to make up their minds

    I don't advocate bombing as it is ineffective ....there needs to be troops on the ground to defeat ISIS. and there needs to be a cease fire with the other protagonists to broker a peace....

    The troops can be Syrian, Iraqi, Egyptians, Tunisian, Russians, French, British, Kuwait , etc .... there is no other way to bring and end to IS...


  • #5195
    Baggy Trousers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭Baggy Trousers


    Custardpi wrote: »
    Which is to fundamentally misunderstand what ISIS are doing & what they aim for. While instability on the ground could certainly push Sunnis already in Iraq/Syria into the arms of ISIS as protection against attacks by Shia, the reality is that ISIS are less about revenge against the West than a purification of Islam & the building of a 7th century style ideal state or "Caliphate".

    The cruelty inflicted on Muslims by ISIS, especially non Sunnis but also simply those who don't toe the line would not seem to be something one would see from people simply aggrieved against mistreatment by the West. While Western policies have certainly contributed to the rise of ISIS, they should be properly understood as a product of those failures rather than a reaction to them.

    Fair enough but bombing Syria into the dark ages will give the local people no option but to welcome their new overlords. The so called targeted bombing is killing many innocent civilians which pushes thousands of young people into the jihad.


  • #5196
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    nokia69 wrote: »
    look you were making excuses for the Turkish football fans saying there was no chance a minority of them chanted allahu akbar during the minutes silence because they might support ISIS

    It doesn't matter what they chanted, allahu akbar isn't a term reserved exclusively for terrorists. They were pissed that their country has been ignored by the west, then told they need to respect the dead in Paris? Can you not see the wrong in that?
    so I asked what about the Bosnian fans who again broke the minutes silence, again more nonsense

    I have no idea why you think I would know wtf the tossers at last nights match were shouting about. Why would I? What has that got to do with Turkey or Paris? What's your point on this, because I haven't a clue wtf you are talking about.

    stop telling lies about islam

    there are plenty of people in Turkey who support ISIS and I don't mean Syrian refugees, even the Turkish government have been helping ISIS

    What lies are they? I can relay this back to my Muslim buddies who are obviously talking through their arses and are evidently trying to take over the world, because that's what ALL Muslims are trying to do, right? :rolleyes:


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  • #5197
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Saipanne wrote: »
    Christ on a bike. Who do you think IS are emulating? They have openly stated this. I must have mentioned this fifty times by now. I know you have read my posts, so why do you pretend not to understand? I think you might be screwing around here.

    And Christians committing atrocities stated they were doing it for Christ - one of the rallying cries during centuries of murderous anti-Semitism was the Jews killed Christ.

    A bunch of murderous thugs are claiming they have permission from the almighty creator to act like murderous thugs and are finding passages in the Quran to 'prove' they have permission just like homophobes find passages in the Bible to 'prove' that god hates homosexuals.

    They ignore any passage that does not 'confirm' what they want to do such as

    “We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to God and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 48)

    “There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” ( Quran: 2/ 256).

    Just as those who call homosexuality an abomination ignore that parts that say judge not.

    Confirmation bias is at play and anything that does not conform to that bias is disregarded.

    It also works the other way - as it does in Christianity - where the negative is disregarded and the passages that call for peace are considered the important ones. People find what they want/need to find.


  • #5198
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭nokia69


    Assad could defeat ISIS on his own if the saudis and Qatar stopped suppling ISIS with money and weapons

    Vlad has shown the west the way, we should follow his lead


  • #5199
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭nokia69


    Carlee Noisy Screenplay wrote: »
    It doesn't matter what they chanted, allahu akbar isn't a term reserved for terrorists. They were pissed that their country has been ignored by the west, then told they need to respect the dead in Paris? Can you not see the wrong in that?

    how can you read their minds, it was a minute of silence, they knew well what they were doing, a small number of Turks and Bosnians decided to disrupt the minutes silence and clowns like you make excuses, pathetic

    Carlee Noisy Screenplay wrote: »
    What lies are they? I can relay this back to my Muslim buddies who are obviously talking through their arses and are evidently trying to take over the world, because that's what ALL Muslims are trying to do, right? :rolleyes:

    islam is the religion of peace :roll eyes:

    don't quote me again I have no interest in people like you


  • #5200
    MPFGLB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭MPFGLB


    Baggy Trousers wrote: »
    Fair enough but bombing Syria into the dark ages will give the local people no option but to welcome their new overlords. The so called targeted bombing is killing many innocent civilians which pushes thousands of young people into the jihad.

    People are dying already...they are killing each other on various Syrian sides or ISIS are killing them

    Whatever way it pans out people are dying ...do we let it continue with ISIS getting stronger or do we fight ISIS head on

    I find all these who say no fighting ISIS ....what do they suggest ? ...
    Obama is one

    We wait until they have bombed every city in Europe, killed thousands Syrians, destroyed every piece of history ?


  • #5201
    Custardpi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Custardpi


    Baggy Trousers wrote: »
    Fair enough but bombing Syria into the dark ages will give the local people no option but to welcome their new overlords. The so called targeted bombing is killing many innocent civilians which pushes thousands of young people into the jihad.

    Sadly the death of innocent civilians is inevitable in any war, no matter how just. Plenty of unfortunate souls lost their lives during our own War of Independence for instance. That said, simply bombing umpteen shades of sh1te out of ISIS controlled areas will be useless without a solid plan as to what to do once the bombing stops.

    Many ISIS fighters could simply melt into the background upon defeat only to emerge into the power vacuum of a failed peace process. The talks currently underway in Vienna & elsewhere are supposed to provide a way towards a stable solution. Personally I'm not optimistic.


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  • #5202
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Hey - if, as you insist, the morality of the founder of a religion is of vital importance then Abraham needs careful study. Perhaps Muhammad was inspired by his distant ancestor.
    You really need to look carefully at this. Perhaps the insanity you perceive at the heart of Islam goes back to the very beginning.. I mean a man prepared to burn his own son :eek:

    Why would you suppose people who don't like Muhammad are fundamentalist old testement Christians or Jews?

    Abraham = Prick.


  • #5203
    bajer101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    bilston wrote: »
    Apologies if this has alreafy been mentioned but for all the talk of whatever has or hasn't happened in Hannover tonight, what definitely happened elsewhere is that 32 people were blown to Kingdom Come at a market in the Nigerian city of Yola thia evening. Boko Haram are being blamed.

    That will be largely ignored here. It doesn't fit into any agenda. RIP.


  • #5204
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Wx wrote: »
    The answer depends on where in their timeline you look but at one point or another each of them was/is/will be an absolute horror.

    Yes, just one example; the Inquisition[/quote]

    A walk in the park with balloons compared to ISIS.


  • #5205
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    nokia69 wrote: »
    how can you read their minds, it was a minute of silence, they knew well what they were doing, a small number of Turks and Bosnians decided to disrupt the minutes silence and clowns like you make excuses, pathetic

    islam is the religion of peace :roll eyes:

    don't quote me again I have no interest in people like you

    I didn't say Islam is a religion of peace, I have no idea where you are getting this from.

    I can't read their minds, but you seem to think you know exactly why both parties have broken the minutes silence. You have made up your mind on that from the get go.

    Again, I cannot say why the Bosnians have said so, but I explained to you that the Turks expressed their opinion on being ignored. Maybe there was some malice involved, maybe there was a lot, but the idea that Turkey is on the side of ISIS is absolutely absurd. Nor does it mean that every Turkish person in the stadium sport ISIS. Maybe only a handful support ISIS, maybe they are just pissed that nobody gives a damn about them. No idea why the Bosnians chanted. Maybe you could explain.

    I try not to judge people (or entire nations/religions) before actual facts emerge. It's easy to jump the gun and place blame, especially on the internetz...


  • #5206
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    bajer101 wrote: »
    That will be largely ignored here. It doesn't fit into any agenda. RIP.

    Actually they are salafists. Sunni Islamists. It could fit an agenda.


  • #5207
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Carlee Noisy Screenplay wrote: »
    I didn't say Islam is a religion of peace, I have no idea where you are getting this from.

    I can't read their minds, but you seem to think you know exactly why both parties have broken the minutes silence. You have made up your mind on that from the get go.

    Again, I cannot say why the Bosnians have said so, but I explained to you that the Turks expressed their opinion on being ignored. Maybe there was some malice involved, maybe there was a lot, but the idea that Turkey is on the side of ISIS is absolutely absurd. Nor does it mean that every Turkish person in the stadium sport ISIS. Maybe only a handful support ISIS, maybe they are just pissed that nobody gives a damn about them. No idea why the Bosnians chanted. Maybe you could explain.

    I try not to judge people (or entire nations/religions) before actual facts emerge. It's easy to jump the gun and place blame, especially on the internetz...

    You seem to have a very keen insight into the Turkish mindset?


  • #5208
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    bajer101 wrote: »
    That will be largely ignored here. It doesn't fit into any agenda. RIP.

    Well done. You successfully brought an agenda into it first. Nice co-opting of tragedy for a pithy talking point.


  • #5209
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    You seem to have a very keen insight into the Turkish mindset?

    Not exactly.


  • #5210
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Interestingly the Inquisition was first established in 1478.

    Islam is currently approx 1400 years old.

    Perhaps a major surge in homicidal insanity at around 14-1500 years after establishment, is a normal milestone for a religion.


  • #5211
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Carlee Noisy Screenplay wrote: »
    Not exactly.

    Yet you know exactly why the Turkish crowd broke the minutes silence today? Odd.


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  • #5212
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Interestingly the Inquisition was first established in 1478.

    Islam is currently approx 1400 years old.

    Perhaps a major surge in homicidal insanity is a normal milestone at around 14-1500 years after the establishment of a religion.

    Except the inquisition wasn't really that bad. Isis probably kill as many people in a week.

    The 30 years war and the wars of religion were bad.

    Not that that argument makes any sense. Muslims live in the modern world. there's no link between the culture and extremism of religions a certain number of years after it was founded.


  • #5213
    deni20000
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76 ✭✭deni20000


    wes wrote: »
    How do you figure that exactly, seeing as the terrorists were born in Europe.

    The one with the Syrian passport wasn't - he came as a refugee through Greece.


  • #5214
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    deni20000 wrote: »
    The one with the Syrian passport wasn't - he came as a refugee through Greece.

    It's actually looking like the passport belonged to a Syrian soldier and was unconnected to the terrorists.

    Unfortunately, even if that is proved, I rather suspect no-one will remember it.


  • #5215
    MPFGLB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭MPFGLB


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Interestingly the Inquisition was first established in 1478.

    Islam is currently approx 1400 years old.

    Perhaps a major surge in homicidal insanity at around 14-1500 years after establishment, is a normal milestone for a religion.

    The 1400 year itch


  • #5216
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭nokia69


    Samaris wrote: »
    It's actually looking like the passport belonged to a Syrian soldier and was unconnected to the terrorists.

    Unfortunately, even if that is proved, I rather suspect no-one will remember it.

    it looks like there are at least 5 passports with the same number travelling around Europe

    letting millions of people just walk into Europe was madness, its a pity it took the murder of over 100 people for this to be made clear

    no matter who the original "real" passport belonged to, it is stupid to just let people walk into your country


  • #5217
    deni20000
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76 ✭✭deni20000


    Samaris wrote: »
    It's actually looking like the passport belonged to a Syrian soldier and was unconnected to the terrorists.

    Unfortunately, even if that is proved, I rather suspect no-one will remember it.

    Remember what?


  • #5218
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    Except the inquisition wasn't really that bad. Isis probably kill as many people in a week.

    The 30 years war and the wars of religion were bad.

    Not that that argument makes any sense. Muslims live in the modern world. there's no link between the culture and extremism of religions a certain number of years after it was founded.

    Those who live in the more extreme Islamic states can hardly be said to be living in 'the modern world'. The small percentage of Muslims who are fundamentalists don't want to live in the modern world. Although they have that in common with the fundamentalists of any religion.


  • #5219
    nxbyveromdwjpg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,402 ✭✭✭nxbyveromdwjpg


    nokia69 wrote: »
    it looks like there are at least 5 passports with the same number travelling around Europe

    letting millions of people just walk into Europe was madness, its a pity it took the murder of over 100 people for this to be made clear

    no matter who the original "real" passport belonged to, it is stupid to just let people walk into your country

    Fake passports have existed as long as real passports have existed. The whole reason they exist is because people aren't just let walk into any country.


  • #5220
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    deni20000 wrote: »
    The one with the Syrian passport wasn't - he came as a refugee through Greece.

    As said above that doesn't appear to be the case, but ask yourself this, why would a suicide attacker be carrying a passport?


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  • #5221
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    Yet you know exactly why the Turkish crowd broke the minutes silence today? Odd.

    Not exactly. Although, I did read else where, comments which were from another point of view. I have tried to find the link but no idea what site I read them on. They were supposedly booing FIFA, but that doesn't conform to your, or Nokia's, agenda so it's not even an option. The only reason they did it is because they are all terrorists who want to eat your children raw if they got the chance.

    What I find odd is the search results for "Attacks in Turkey" show up the attacks in Paris. There's nothing biased about that algorithm at all.


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