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Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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Comments

  • #4682
    Rabo Karabekian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭Rabo Karabekian


    Saipanne wrote: »
    Can't get an answer to this anywhere. Shame.

    Things change, as I'm sure you're aware. Another important factor is how people look at texts and how those texts are interpreted. You can see this in how the Bible (and not the Old Testament, but the New Testament) is interpreted. You get a fairly diverse set of people and ideologies, from George W. Bush's neoconservatism to the Liberation Theology which had a fairly strong association with Marxism.

    IS are convinced that they are the true representation of Islam (or at least, that's what they claim: I personally think there are a fair few in the upper echelons that see IS as an opportunity for personal rather than ideological gain) but so do many, many of the other branches, sects, divides, whatever-you're-having-yourself. Proof of this would be the amount of Muslims (or apostates as IS would have it) that IS slaughters: far higher than the 'infidels' in the west.


  • #4683
    McDermotX
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,645 ✭✭✭✭McDermotX


    Complete disgrace at the Aviva.

    Liveline Gold that'll be.


  • #4684
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    Rabo Karabekian wrote: »
    Things change, as I'm sure you're aware. Another important factor is how people look at texts and how those texts are interpreted. You can see this in how the Bible (and not the Old Testament, but the New Testament) is interpreted. You get a fairly diverse set of people and ideologies, from George W. Bush's neoconservatism to the Liberation Theology which had a fairly strong association with Marxism.

    IS are convinced that they are the true representation of Islam (or at least, that's what they claim: I personally think there are a fair few in the upper echelons that see IS as an opportunity for personal rather than ideological gain) but so do many, many of the other branches, sects, divides, whatever-you're-having-yourself. Proof of this would be the amount of Muslims (or apostates as IS would have it) that IS slaughters: far higher than the 'infidels' in the west.

    OK, so in a modern context Mohammed's take on Islam is just one of many. Interesting.


  • #4685
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    McDermotX wrote: »
    Complete disgrace at the Aviva.

    Gist ?


  • #4686
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Originally Posted by ihatemyfish View Post
    It’s necessary to say clearly to the guests, who come to our homeland, that they are guests and they will remain guests who will behave as we dictate. They can’t tell us how to behave in our own home.

    im not aware that our immigrants have been demanding we change our behaviour , what specifically do you mean in Ireland ?

    Those that support open borders seem to think that we can let anyone and everyone who wants to live here in and then that we should ask "how can we help you settle and what do you need?"

    some people support limited immigration, I dont think Ive met anyone that advocates a completely limitless open door , nor is there any EU country with such a policy today.
    It is time instead to ask immigrants "what can you do for us and how can you benefit the country at large with your presence?" The Eastern European countries get this and their citizens are mostly model immigrants when they move west. They work, they pay their way, integrate whilst also not forgetting their own roots and customs without causing any problems for the host. It's time Western European countries copied their nations approach.

    I think you'll find the same can be said for African immigrants, I see them bring their kids to school, immaculately turned out, diligent in their school world etc. They will be great irish men and women in the future.

    I would add their are only very small groups of immigrants that want to leech of the system, most want to use the situation to work, get ahead and in particular make a better life for their children. In my wife school the trouble makers and layabouts are not immigrants !.
    I've read in the media that these murderous bastards were "oppressed and disillusioned." These people were provided with free or heavily subsidised social housing , free education, free healthcare and a truckload of welfare. How can anyone say that they were oppressed with a straight face and try and lay blame on Frances door?

    most radicalised Islamists are actually educated and thoughtful, they are not the bottom of the barrel, those that are those types are struggling to live , not jaunt to Syria. The riots in Paris were more because of poverty and unemployment and hence disconnection with society


    You need to be careful not to promote incorrect stereotypes of immigrants as feckless, lazy scroungers, just like the Irish were portrayed when they emigrated in the 40s and 50s, . Surely we have learned a bit from that


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  • #4687
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    McDermotX wrote: »
    Complete disgrace at the Aviva.

    Liveline Gold that'll be.

    I would have knocked the prick out, for that.


  • #4688
    Rabo Karabekian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭Rabo Karabekian


    Saipanne wrote: »
    OK, so in a modern context Mohammed's take on Islam is just one of many. Interesting.

    Yeah, I kind of figured that you weren't really interested in an answer judging from your original question. Your response confirms that.

    But to reiterate: you can look at an ancient text in many ways. One of those ways is the IS way, the other ways are the numerous dots on the spectrum of Islam. IS represents an interpretation of Islam, as does every other sect within Islam.


  • #4689
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    Rabo Karabekian wrote: »
    Yeah, I kind of figured that you weren't really interested in an answer judging from your original question. Your response confirms that.

    But to reiterate: you can look at an ancient text in many ways. One of those ways is the IS way, the other ways are the numerous dots on the spectrum of Islam. IS represents an interpretation of Islam, as does every other sect within Islam.

    No, that makes sense. Lots of little sects, one of which is Mohammed's sect. Right?


  • #4690
    Rabo Karabekian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭Rabo Karabekian


    Saipanne wrote: »
    No, that makes sense. Lots of little sects, one of which is Mohammed's sect. Right?

    Nope, you're close though. They're all Mohammed's sects.


  • #4691
    questionmark?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,085 ✭✭✭questionmark?


    TallGlass wrote: »
    How embarrassing was that minute silence at the start of the Ireland game.

    For those of us not watching the fuzzball could you care to expand?


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  • #4692
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,569 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    questionmark? wrote: »
    For those of us not watching the fuzzball could you care to expand?

    Someone shouted something and then some others shouted in return, and now people are shouting at each other on Twitter


  • #4693
    GT_TDI_150
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,917 ✭✭✭✭GT_TDI_150


    GT_TDI_150 wrote: »
    Being from Belgium, I wish the media would stop referring to these attackers as Belgians or French nations, etc ... they are (and refer to themselves as) Turks, Moroccans, Syrians, etc ... They are 2nd-3rd-4th generation immigrants but in all that time have failed to adjust to the way of living / thinking in their current home country. They have the attitude that their host countries should adjust to them not the other way around.
    BoatMad wrote: »
    They are quite legitimately called Belgians and French citizens as that is exactly what they are.

    what they believe in does not change their birthplace
    It isnt based on believe ... they have non-belgian or non french parents so they also carry the nationality of their parent. I grew up, wnet to school with and played football with 3rd and 4th generation immigrant and they refer to themselfs as Turks or Morrocan, not Belgian. They do not identify with their birth country, they identify with their parents nationality. That part inst based on their believe, it is who they think they are.
    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Just like all the 'new' Irish with their bits of paper issued to them at ceremonies by Alan Shatter and his pals. The terrorists were no more French or Belgian than I am.

    I've kids that were born here with an irish mother ... they identify about 80% with being irish and 20% Belgian (and that part is purely for novelty of being different to other kids :P)
    BoatMad wrote: »
    There are citizens, that definition is what officially defines them

    No more then Irish Americans are not Irish, but American citizens

    The fact that they may wish their country of adoption harm, is not too different from the scores of native citizenry who over the years for one reason or another also wished their own country harm too.

    SO yes they are french , they are belgian, it doesnt change anything , except it makes us " uncomfortable " , that these in our midst would wish us harm, so the first thing we do is externalise the problem. They aren't " one of us", they're foreign etc, Its called demonisation and it helps the masses sleep at night

    But its a fallacy.

    Irish american refer to themselfs as just that 'Irish American.

    These people dont call themself French-Moroccans or Belgian Turks ... They refer to themselves as Turks or moroccan ... they do not try to integrate
    Peist2007 wrote: »
    There's the real agenda. "I dont like darkies". Sad.
    give over!


  • #4694
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    Rabo Karabekian wrote: »
    Nope, you're close though. They're all Mohammed's sects.

    Except the non atrocity ones, because they don't copy him.

    Strange...


  • #4695
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,345 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    Same for pretty much every country it seems.

    I hope it puts to rest this notion that your average Muslim does nothing. There isn't much they can do but voice their dislike of ISIS and stand with the rest of the world in opposition to them.

    I think there could be a lot more interaction between ‘your average Muslims’ and the police forces in each country. Similar to up north during the troubles, there’s plenty voicing their dislike about attacks but I’ve seen little evidence of widespread reporting of (or calls to report) family/friends if there’s any suspicion that they’ve been exposed to radicalisation.


  • #4696
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Someone shouted something and then some others shouted in return, and now people are shouting at each other on Twitter

    People are shouting on my FB feed too.


  • #4697
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    With such a large user base on boards the integrated moderate muslim community must be represented. Just wondering if there have been any expressions of condemnation from any of them in this thread?


  • #4698
    Rabo Karabekian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭Rabo Karabekian


    Saipanne wrote: »
    Except the non atrocity ones, because they don't copy him.

    Strange...

    Again, nope. Nobody in Islam is copying Muhammed's teachings or way of life to the letter. They are all living their lives according to what they choose to interpret and decide to ignore. Muhammed's 'sayings', and how to interpret what he did are expanded on in other important texts.

    Y'know, like with any other belief system based on a book written 1000+ years ago.


  • #4699
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,569 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    People are shouting on my FB feed too.

    Yeah, it's all a tad embarrassing really, regardless of who started the bloody shouting!

    People arguing over who is more disrespectful to the dead without any hint of irony attached

    Bunch of vacuous twats


  • #4700
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    stefanovich wrote: »
    With such a large user base on boards the integrated moderate muslim community must be represented. Just wondering if there have been any expressions of condemnation from any of them in this thread?

    Go to their forum I suppose?


  • #4701
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    Rabo Karabekian wrote: »
    Again, nope. Nobody in Islam is copying Muhammed's teachings or way of life to the letter. They are all living their lives according to what they choose to interpret and decide to ignore. Muhammed's 'sayings', and how to interpret what he did are expanded on in other important texts.

    Y'know, like with any other belief system based on a book written 1000+ years ago.

    I hear ya, but old Mo would be proud of IS. You know, the group that in no way represents Islam.

    #terrorismhasnoreligion

    :)


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  • #4702
    mynameis905
    Closed Accounts Posts: 754 ✭✭✭mynameis905


    Saipanne wrote: »
    Go to their forum I suppose?

    The silence on the Islam forum was deafening and the thread on this topic was shut down after just 3 pages by a heavy handed mod. Anything even remotely critical of Islam gets shut down within a few posts.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057522505&page=3


  • #4703
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Saipanne wrote: »
    Go to their forum I suppose?
    There was a thread on the forum which was locked. Only saw one muslim post in it and he described IS as the lesser evil.


  • #4704
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    mynameis905 wrote: »
    The silence on the Islam forum was deafening and the thread on this topic was shut down after 3 pages by a heavy handed mod.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057522505&page=3

    What. A. Surprise.

    I went there with my IS is kinda like Mohammed hypothesis. Tried my utmost to phrase it in a non offensive way. And despite my best efforts, part of my post was deleted, and the rest ignored.

    I dunno, its almost as if they don't give a shït.


  • #4705
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    stefanovich wrote: »
    There was a thread on the forum which was locked. Only saw one muslim post in it and he described IS as the lesser evil.

    Not surprised. I think it was Christopher Hitchens who said, and I paraphrase...

    "If extremist Islam is a snake, moderate Islam is the grass that protects it."

    I've yet to see any sign that this metaphor is false.


  • #4706
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Saipanne wrote: »
    Not surprised. I think it was Christopher Hitchens who said, and I paraphrase...

    "If extremist Islam is a snake, moderate Islam is the grass that protects it."

    I've yet to see any sign that this metaphor is false.


    I doubt you've any interest in seeing it.


  • #4707
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    Nodin wrote: »
    I doubt you've any interest in seeing it.

    I do, because it would mean that moderate Islam joins us in standing up to islamism. I would genuinely love that to happen. No messing.


  • #4708
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    It isnt based on believe ... they have non-belgian or non french parents so they also carry the nationality of their parent. I grew up, wnet to school with and played football with 3rd and 4th generation immigrant and they refer to themselfs as Turks or Morrocan, not Belgian. They do not identify with their birth country, they identify with their parents nationality. That part inst based on their believe, it is who they think they are.

    I repeatedly would like to claim vulcan ancestry , the irish Gov persists in saying I'm an irish citizen -- damm,


  • #4709
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,143 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Saipanne wrote: »
    What. A. Surprise.

    I went there with my IS is kinda like Mohammed hypothesis. Tried my utmost to phrase it in a non offensive way. And despite my best efforts, part of my post was deleted, and the rest ignored.

    I dunno, its almost as if they don't give a shït.

    If the moderators don't like it they shut it down. Free speech how are ya.

    This place is ( in some fora) becoming a bit scary how quickly voices are being silenced.

    Would be better in Aleppo.


  • #4710
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Saipanne wrote: »
    I hear ya, but old Mo would be proud of IS. You know, the group that in no way represents Islam.

    #terrorismhasnoreligion

    :)

    actually it represents a particular part of islam, a particular understanding of Islam, there is no "one" all encompassing Islam.

    #ofcourseterrorismhasareligionsometimes


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  • #4711
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Saipanne wrote: »
    I do, because it would mean that moderate Islam joins us in standing up to islamism. I would genuinely love that to happen. No messing.

    This has come up before. 'What have the moderates said?' 'Here is what the moderates have said' followed by 'its not enough''/they mean something other than what they said' /'taqqiya'/'then why don't they' and so on. Like clockwork.


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