Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

BoatMad

Chris_Bradley wrote: »

How come Syria got attacked by France & not Belgium?

The french have been longstanding associates of the Americans in the war on terror, arguably more involved in more theatres then the UK.

Chris_Bradley

BoatMad wrote: »

The french have been longstanding associates of the Americans in the war on terror, arguably more involved in more theatres then the UK.

Oil is indeed of much more worth than say..... Chocolate or Beer - that's for sure.

Bannasidhe

Saipanne wrote: »

Is Islam part of the reason why this is happening? No way I could say that in public without being jumped on by the morality police. But it should be discussed. Instead people just focus on the Wests intervention in the ME, which is clearly a problem too. But perhaps not the only causative factor.

No, not all Muslims are terrorists obviously, because most Muslims ignore the warmongering bits. But there seems to be something about that religion that inspires religious conquest in LOTS of people. I say its the religion's founder, Mohammed, who dictated flowery lovey things to those who wrote his books, but he clearly put NONE of that into practice. This is the real problem, I think. It requires Muslims to reject Mohammeds, emm, diplomatic style of spreading Islam. You know, the one that IS are currently emulating.

Strange - I have read and heard people not only ask 'Is Islam part of the reason why this is happening?' but categorically state it is the reason here in this tread, on T.V., in newspapers and on the radio and seen no sign of them being silenced by any kind of police.

'Being jumped on' is not the same as being silenced - I have been 'jumped on' and called an ISIS sympathizer and as offensive (and inaccurate) as that is I certainly don't think I am being silenced.

BoatMad

Chris_Bradley wrote: »

Oil is indeed of much more worth than say..... Chocolate or Beer - that's for sure.

to suggest that the west is in the middle east solely because of oil , is to display a profound ignorance of the history of european colonial powers and their involvement in the middle east , well before oil had any significance

Bannasidhe

Nodin wrote: »

Funny enough, you never really heard this kind of thing singling out Islam pre-2001. Considering the age of the Koran that's rather interesting.

Care to respond
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97760095&postcount=4762

Meh - it was fairly popular c 12-16th centuries until the Protestants popped up and distracted the Hapsburgs.

Chris_Bradley

BoatMad wrote: »

to suggest that the west is in the middle east solely because of oil , is to display a profound ignorance of the history of european colonial powers and their involvement in the middle east , well before oil had any significance

In the last 120 years you'd be very much wrong. Ignorance lies with you dear boy.

kcools

Gaygooner wrote: »

What was Belgium going to do? Send in a blonde lad and his dog?

Belgian Air Force has had F-16's in Iraq fighting Isis since 2014, think there's a good chance they also be allowed to operate in Syrian airspace in the near future.

BoatMad

Chris_Bradley wrote: »

In the last 120 years you'd be very much wrong. Ignorance lies with you dear boy.

ponderous statements are just that, ponderous, if you have a point to make, make it, otherwise please refrain from such vacuity

Chris_Bradley

BoatMad wrote: »

ponderous statements are just that, ponderous, if you have a point to make, make it, otherwise please refrain from such vacuity

Completely agree with you but in this case you're very wrong.

Awaits Oxford dictionary reply with no substance yet again.

wendell borton

"There are only two forces in the world, the sword and the spirit. In the long run the sword will always be conquered by the spirit."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

BoatMad

wendell borton wrote: »

"There are only two forces in the world, the sword and the spirit. In the long run the sword will always be conquered by the spirit."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

unfortunately the long run can be very long , I'm not sure we've see the end coming yet for a while

Chris_Bradley

I see the "look at me and my vast knowledge of words" folk have come out......

How boring *yawns*

They always seem to forget what the thread is all about & somehow bring it back to their one & only true reason for being here...... themselves & their egos.

R.I.P the dead of Paris, I just hope their deaths is not used to attack yet another oil rich country.

Goodnight.

RobertKK

On CNN, they said there was a failed attack on a church earlier in the year.

JustTheOne

Isis have killed more Muslims than Christians.

They have killed children and women on purpose who dont subscribe to their way of thinking.

This is more complex than your usual the west created the problem and if they stop airstrikes it will end.

These lads want to enforce their beliefs on the world.

The last time we seen this was Nazi Germany.

RobertKK

Nodin wrote: »

Funny enough, you never really heard this kind of thing singling out Islam pre-2001. Considering the age of the Koran that's rather interesting.

Care to respond
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97760095&postcount=4762

1979 and the fall of the Shah for the Iranian Islamic state.

The internet wasn't really that big before 2001 and dial up wasn't a help.
World population has exploded in relatively recent times compared to the past.
The Jewish/Muslim/Arab conflict. Where we first saw the Islamic extremist suicide bombers.
Europe was a far more Christian continent in the recent past, there seems to have been a confluence of events that is allowing Islam to be a growing religion in Europe - native European's low birth rate, not helped by liberal views towards abortion where around one fifth of pregnancies being aborted.
Immigration from Muslim countries who have larger families, and studies show some European countries in decades to come will have Muslim majorities.
Europe's poor breeding rate which is below replacement means we need more immigration.
This all makes Islam a growing talking point, and it doesn't help that the Lebanese government say they believe about 2% of the people claiming they are refugees are in fact terrorists.
This means Islam will be singled out and will continue to be singled out. Islamic extremism is a problem that is rising at an enormous rate.

fr336

JustTheOne wrote: »

Isis have killed more Muslims than Christians.

They have killed children and women on purpose who dont subscribe to their way of thinking.

This is more complex than your usual the west created the problem and if they stop airstrikes it will end.

These lads want to enforce their beliefs on the world.

The last time we seen this was Nazi Germany.

Indeed, Al Qaeda as vile as they were and no doubt are (and they are very), in their warped heads thought they were defending the Muslim lands. ISIS want total domination by any tactics and even Al Qaeda seem rather nervous of them.

RobertKK

JustTheOne wrote: »

Isis have killed more Muslims than Christians.

They have killed children and women on purpose who dont subscribe to their way of thinking.

This is more complex than your usual the west created the problem and if they stop airstrikes it will end.

These lads want to enforce their beliefs on the world.

The last time we seen this was Nazi Germany.

Yeah they are apocalyptic, they believe they are part of a good versus evil war, they see themselves as good and anyone who doesn't subscribe to their beliefs as evil and they are bringing their war to us.

fr336

RobertKK wrote: »

Yeah they are apocalyptic, they believe they are part of a good versus evil war, they see themselves as good and anyone who doesn't subscribe to their beliefs as evil and they are bringing their war to us.

That many be the case for some of them, but personally I believe many more are in it for the power, to be part of something, and even more of them are in it purely for bloodlust. They use religion as a nice warm excuse to take their anger out on the world. An anger which was formed by their personal experiences rather than what they'd seen in the news about Muslims being attacked etc (of course they attack Muslims all the time themselves, not least in attacks where they aim at anyone and everyone). How many successful people join ISIS? The majority of terrorist photos I see they look like the common weirdo I've come to expect to see. Someone who was all quiet and shy once upon a time, perhaps being bullied around, and after years of sadness and anger building up they're now some big man. These people aren't men. I'm reluctant to call them people either, whatever the technacalities. All I see are scum.

Azalea

fr336 wrote: »

That many be the case for some of them, but personally I believe many more are in it for the power, to be part of something, and even more of them are in it purely for bloodlust. They use religion as a nice warm excuse to take their anger out on the world. An anger which was formed by their personal experiences rather than what they'd seen in the news about Muslims being attacked etc (of course they attack Muslims all the time themselves, not least in attacks where they aim at anyone and everyone).

Yes, the "One's terrorist is another's freedom fighter" trope is valid to a point in relation to some cases, but not in relation to an organisation that kills its own rather than defends them. People say the West created them - perhaps to a point, but how did the West create their tendency to brutalise fellow muslims?

BuilderPlumber

JustTheOne wrote: »

Isis have killed more Muslims than Christians.

They have killed children and women on purpose who dont subscribe to their way of thinking.

This is more complex than your usual the west created the problem and if they stop airstrikes it will end.

These lads want to enforce their beliefs on the world.

The last time we seen this was Nazi Germany.

The rise of al Qaeda and ISIS is very complex. We can debate forever on what lead to it. I very much opposed Bush's war on Iraq but would ISIS have emerged anyway no one knows. ISIS have existed in one form or another for many years. The Muslim Brotherhood perhaps was the start of a lot of this. Al Qaeda just continued things along and regimes like the Taliban and Omar Bashir's Islamic Republic of Sudan both gave sanctuary to terrorists until the former was ousted and the latter changed sides to avoid being ousted. ISIS itself started off as the al Qaeda in Iraq organisation and from the start, set out to shock the world with its violent beheadings and shootings of people like Kenneth Bigley and Margaret Hassan. It was lying low for years after its leader, Zarqawi was killed. It reemerged in 2011 as the 'Arab spring' gave it new opportunities. It called itself al Qaeda in Iraq and the Levant before then calling itself ISIS/ISIL/DAESH and in more recent times, just Islamic State.

How tightly controlled its operatives are is anyone's guess. Is what happens in Paris directly ordered by someone in Baghdad or Damascus or is it organised in Paris by people inspired by ISIS. And who are ISIS? It is to me more a very dangerous idea than a coherent organisation. It is the call to all Muslims to kill so-called infidels and those gullible enough to follow it up become part of the same process.

RobertKK

fr336 wrote: »

That many be the case for some of them, but personally I believe many more are in it for the power, to be part of something, and even more of them are in it purely for bloodlust. They use religion as a nice warm excuse to take their anger out on the world. An anger which was formed by their personal experiences rather than what they'd seen in the news about Muslims being attacked etc (of course they attack Muslims all the time themselves, not least in attacks where they aim at anyone and everyone). How many successful people join ISIS? The majority of terrorist photos I see they look like the common weirdo I've come to expect to see. Someone who was all quiet and shy once upon a time, perhaps being bullied around, and after years of sadness and anger building up they're now some big man. These people aren't men. I'm reluctant to call them people either, whatever the technacalities. All I see are scum.

Yes they lack a humanity, whether it is burning people alive, burying people alive, crucifying Christians, beheadings, bombing and shooting.
You wouldn't be right in the head to join as you say, and I think your analysis of the kind of life these people led before joining ISIS is correct.

KingBrian2

Surely the outpouring of sorrow for France and the mass support for Muslims in the aftermath demonstrate that their is no anti Islamic feeling in Europe. Of course there will be some with grievances but all the messages of toleration have to heard and accepted in the Muslim world that we are not all killers and heretics and we have values that are in common with theirs. We have pretty big difference despite that all the leaders, civil society and the cooperation with various Arab countries has to be persuasive to those tempted to go into the Jihad movement.

BuilderPlumber

Azalea wrote: »

Yes, the "One's terrorist is another's freedom fighter" trope is valid to a point in relation to some cases, but not in relation to an organisation that kills its own rather than defends them. People say the West created them - perhaps to a point, but how did the West create their tendency to brutalise fellow muslims?

I don't think any country could consider ISIS/al Qaeda as useful. They are perceived as a threat by the West, Russia, Iran and China: a common enemy of all countries is what they are and rather than having all countries arguing about who created them or not, it is time for common action by all countries against a common enemy.

Mountainsandh

The Ayatollahs Komeini 's little green book has a page or two on the colonialist philosophy, and justifies murder to achieve world domination. It's readable online as a pdf file, just Google it. It's great to try and understand their mindset, what's boggling is how you can brainwash someone to adopt it.

RobertKK

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

I don't think any country could consider ISIS/al Qaeda as useful. They are perceived as a threat by the West, Russia, Iran and China: a common enemy of all countries is what they are and rather than having all countries arguing about who created them or not, it is time for common action by all countries against a common enemy.

It was noticeable at Antalya in Turkey that Putin was a far more acceptable person to be seen with given they are all in the same fight against ISIS.

BuilderPlumber

RobertKK wrote: »

It was noticeable at Antalya in Turkey that Putin was a far more acceptable person to be seen with given they are all in the same fight against ISIS.

The West and Russia are faced with a common enemy and it is in the interests of the world to stamp out the threats posed by extremism.

ISIS and al Qaeda are very different to other groups. These are not the IRA, the KLA, Hamas, Hezbollah, Tamil Tigers, ETA, FARC, etc. who all were focused on localised enemies and not on going to war with the world. ISIS and al Qaeda consider every country in the world as their enemy. Their short-term plan is to destabise the Middle East and much of Africa and flood Europe with terrorists and their actions. Longterm is to take over the world or as much of it as they can.

BuilderPlumber

Mountainsandh wrote: »

The Ayatollahs Komeini 's little green book has a page or two on the colonialist philosophy, and justifies murder to achieve world domination. It's readable online as a pdf file, just Google it. It's great to try and understand their mindset, what's boggling is how you can brainwash someone to adopt it.

Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini's grandson is one of the biggest opponents of 'Islamic politics' today. Khomeini himself gets mixed views. The fact that his family did not inherit his status proved that by the late 1980s, president Khamenei was more in control than Khomeini.

Islamism was not nearly as vicious back then either. There were hostage crises at the time of Khomeini in Iran and later in Lebanon. There hostages were nowhere nearly as poorly treated as those captured by today's breed and all got out alive.

It would be interesting how Khomeini would view ISIS. My guess is very poorly as Khomeini despised Sunni groups inspired by Saudi Arabia. Khamenei, his successor, has spouted anti-al Qaeda and ISIS rhetoric and has sent troops to fight ISIS but he can also blame the West for the creation of such terrorist groups.

ceadaoin.

Saw this on another site. A Singaporean Muslim posted this on facebook in response to the attacks. He has been getting a lot of threats but also lots of fellow Muslims agreeing with him.

“I want to thank well-meaning non-Muslims who, in the wake of these attacks, have emphasised that they have been carried out by a small, twisted minority. A terrorist’s goal is to sow hatred and discord, and by not giving in, you are defeating their plans.

But I want to say that as a Muslim, I wish that we weren’t so quick to emphasise that this has nothing to do with us. While I personally have never killed anyone and none of my friends and family have ever resorted to violence, radicalism has everything to do with Islam. And the failure to address that out of a well-intentioned commitment to tolerance is making the problem worse.

ISIS is a Muslim organisation, and it is an Islamic problem. Let me say it again to be perfectly clear. ISIS is a Muslim organisation, and they are a cancer at the heart of Islam. And the problem will not go away until Muslims confront that.

ISIS attackers scream ‘Allah hu’akbar’ during their attacks.

ISIS recruits cite Qur’anic verses as justification for the rape and enslavement of women.

ISIS soldiers kill archaeologists, gay men and women, and people who refuse to convert to Islam because they are blasphemers.

There are no Christians in ISIS. There are no Buddhists, Jews, Pagans, Taoists, Houngans, Catholics, Wiccans, Hindus or even Scientologists in ISIS. ISIS is a Muslim organisation and they kill in the name of Islam.

So don’t say that ISIS aren’t ‘true Muslims’ or that they are ‘not really Muslims’. Like any large organisation, ISIS exists in a spectrum.

You have the aimless, restless teenager who never amounted to anything in his life and traveled to Syria because he can’t find a job and doesn’t know if the Qur’an is to be read from left to right or right to left. But you also have pious professionals, businessmen, and academics who read their Qur’an cover to cover, pray every day, were seduced into radicalism, and truly believe that the Islamic State’s goal of conquest is a noble one. The so-called ‘Caliph’ Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi has a doctorate in Islamic studies.

So if you feel that Muslims are being oppressed or killed in Muslim countries, I expect you to also be just as outraged by ISIS. Because they have killed more Muslims in Iraq, Syria and Jordan than the entire US army.

They have done more damage to the name and reputation of Islam than any Western nation. ISIS is Islam’s biggest enemy, not the US, not Israel or France or Germany or the Russians.

We have to own the problem. We have to admit that this is a religious problem, and we need to renew our commitment to a secular country which treats all religions equally. I have believed in the importance of secularism all my life, and with every day that passes that belief grows stronger. Religion is no way to govern a nation. Not any religion, and not any nation.

ISIS is not America’s problem, nor the British, nor the French. ISIS is not Syria or Iraq’s problem. ISIS is a problem for Muslims. And if you can’t admit that, you’re not really a good Muslim either.”

Kermit.de.frog

As far as I am concerned it is time to end Schengen and increase controls at our border. Lunatics can't be reasoned or bargained with. This could happen in Dublin with only a couple of fanatics. We have to secure our borders. We have to stop left wing ideology that has invited this event on France.

How the powers that be can be so stupid is beyond me.

End it now. Close borders. Enough of this "but" bull**** from clerics and the like. And as an Irish person I am ashamed and embarrassed that we call ourselves "neutral" between democracy and terror. The minority loud talkers don't speak for me.

MPFGLB

I think ISIS can only be beaten on the ground. I wonder why an army is not put together by an alliance of the willing. Bet there would be so many volunteers. Obama said that an invasion would not defeat them...maybe not in the first instance but surely he can see that without a base their power is considerably diluted....

There needs also to be a truce with Sunni locals and if necessary a section of Iraq/Syria with Sunni autonomy...I know the break up a country is not a good idea but in this case is it not better than continued war ....The Shias in Iraq and Assad are going no where so Sunnis cannot gain outright rule in these countries ...maybe better to have a federal system of co existence

When you think of the number of ISL citizens and compared to the rest of the world they are but a drop in the ocean ...However they have bee allowed to grow and destroy when they should have been tackled ages ago.

Next up : The duplicitous relationship Saudi Arabia has with the west. ISIS has had the backing of several rich Saudis.Weapons and oil have flowed. Saudi a muslim state has refused to take one Syrian migrant (mostly Sunni) . SA is a fundamentalist theocracy with medieval laws and is the source of much of the funding and support for Al Qaeda
We should not be supporting this country no matter how wealthy and how much oil. This conflict to our values is abhorrent

Finally countries in the west need to embrace more integrated non religious secular society. Laws are made based on majority requirement and no allowances are made for any religion to dominate or dictate laws. More should be done to encourage the 'privatization' of religion where sense of identity is not just linked to religion