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Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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Comments

  • #4442
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    fed up sick and tired wrote: »
    That isn't a typo, as one so fond of definitional exactitude should appreciate.

    Fact remains - in your haste to return fire you didn't check your sources.

    Sure thing.


  • #4443
    Lollipops23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,420 ✭✭✭Lollipops23


    I'm getting really sick of people a) giving out about us not being "as upset" about the other horrible things happening in the name of Allah (eg. suicide bombs in Lebanon last week) and b)for people changing their profilers on FB.

    My parents live in France. They're there right now. I've been going to the country at least once a year since the age of 13. That's 15 years, every year. I think I'm permitted to be particularly shaken by this.

    Aside from this, it shouldn't matter. Humans are always going to be affected by stuff that's both mentally and physically closer to home; I doubt most of these naysayers could find Lebanon on a map, not that that should lessen the sadness at innocent people losing their lives.

    People need to stop with the contrarian faux-worldliness. Let people grieve.

    If you want to actually help in some small way; educate people on Islam. If you can find the time to read up on it yourself, that is.


  • #4444
    keano_afc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    StringerBell wrote: »
    If you are to take stuff from the Bible in context why not stuff from the Koran?

    Thats exactly what I was alluding to in my first post. The context is clear - these surahs are directed to all believers. Some choose to follow them, some dont.

    This is a massive elephant in the room that rarely gets attention. When looking for motives as to why these fanatics are doing what they're doing, we dont have to look very far.


  • #4445
    arayess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭arayess


    rob316 wrote: »

    ISIS are jealous of our freedom and liberties, that is why they want our destruction.

    you think?

    IS wants the caliphate where they can dance to the tune of sharia law. They will need to over throw leaders in the middle east to achieve this.
    They got the initial support , money and decent weaponry from Sunni Muslim and ex Saddam supporters who were fcuked over in the new Iraq by the new Shia government but also by the Americans.
    They now have oil to sell.

    They don't really care about our freedoms and liberties. If the west left the middle east and stopped interfering and propping up regime there and stopped "stealing" the natural resources . IS wouldn't be too bothered with the west.

    Sure some useful idiots are running about thinking this is what Allah wants but the backers of IS and the IS leadership have a plan and it's all about land, money and natural resources.

    Your analysis looks like it was copied from the Sun .


  • #4446
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 22,499 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Lollipops23 wrote: »
    I'm getting really sick of people a) giving out about us not being "as upset" about the other horrible things happening in the name of Allah (eg. suicide bombs in Lebanon last week) and b)for people changing their profilers on FB.

    My parents live in France. They're there right now. I've been going to the country at least once a year since the age of 13. That's 15 years, every year. I think I'm permitted to be particularly shaken by this.

    Aside from this, it shouldn't matter. Humans are always going to be affected by stuff that's both mentally and physically closer to home; I doubt most of these naysayers could find Lebanon on a map, not that that should lessen the sadness at innocent people losing their lives.

    People need to stop with the contrarian faux-worldliness. Let people grieve.

    If you want to actually help in some small way; educate people on Islam. If you can find the time to read up on it yourself, that is.
    exactly! people expect people to be upset about something they didnt even know happened


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  • #4447
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    keano_afc wrote: »
    Thats exactly what I was alluding to in my first post. The context is clear - these surahs are directed to all believers. Some choose to follow them, some dont.

    This is a massive elephant in the room that rarely gets attention. When looking for motives as to why these fanatics are doing what they're doing, we dont have to look very far.

    I admit I'm ignorant to the teachings of the Koran, but like the bible, are there various versions of it floating around so people can pick and choose what they live by?

    An example being Christians who use the quote "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" when it's a well known fact that this quote was added to the bible by King James when he created his own version.


  • #4448
    mynameis905
    Closed Accounts Posts: 754 ✭✭✭mynameis905


    rob316 wrote: »
    The extremists select choice quotes from the Quran to justify their murder sprees. If you ever have read the Quran you will know its needs to read in its entirety to understand Allah's teachings.

    I am sick to the teeth of this misconception. The Koran was written over a 20 year period. The early verses are full of the love and peace and 'there is no compulsion in religion' stuff that the apologists love to trot out whenever anyone dares to claim that Islam is a violent religion.

    The early verses were written at a time when Muhammad had very, very followers. As he gained power the later verses get increasingly violent as he united modern day Saudi Arabia under his rule. The problem is that the earlier, peaceful verses are considered to have been abrogated by the later ones, i.e they have been replaced by the more violent ones and no longer count
    rob316 wrote: »
    Ask any normal Muslim they will tell you the Quran and Islam is a message of peace.

    Not really. The average muslim living in the west might be peaceful but there is huge support among the muslim community for the likes of sharia law. Their values are fundamentally opposed to western civilisation.
    rob316 wrote: »
    You also have to remember this book was written 1400 years ago, messages of killing are related to the battlefield not justification to murder people today.

    For the second time - to Muslims, the Quran represents the literal, perfect and unchanging word of god. They do not believe that just because it was written 1400 years ago that it is now irrelevant.You're looking at this through your own western bias and expecting Muslims to do the same. They do not.


  • #4449
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    mynameis905 wrote: »
    I am sick to the teeth of this misconception. The Koran was written over a 20 year period. The early verses are full of the love and peace and 'there is no compulsion in religion' stuff that the apologists love to trot out whenever anyone dares to claim that Islam is a violent religion.

    The early verses were written at a time when Muhammad had very, very followers. As he gained power the later verses get increasingly violent as he united modern day Saudi Arabia under his rule. The problem is that the earlier, peaceful verses are considered to have been abrogated by the later ones, i.e they have been replaced by the more violent ones and no longer count...

    There is no shortage of hair-raising pre-medieval barbarism in the Judeo-Christian texts either. Far from it. In these it is the earlier tales that feature a bearded Thunderbastard of a deity who is not shy-and-retiring about getting his point across. This is superseded by somewhat fluffier character in the later instalments. But for some reason the whole notion of reverting to an ancient, "perfect" and hideously intolerant and violent way of life keeps cropping up in Islam in a way that you don't see with other major interpretations, and also for some reason a lot of people seem to be drawn to it.


  • #4450
    DubVelo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 543 ✭✭✭DubVelo


    arayess wrote: »
    IS wants the caliphate where the can dance to the tune of sharia law.

    HEY! Hey, no dancin' there you! That's haraam! :mad:


  • #4451
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    smash wrote: »
    I admit I'm ignorant to the teachings of the Koran, but like the bible, are there various versions of it floating around so people can pick and choose what they live by?
    Eh, no. One version and a vigorously theologically defended one at that.
    An example being Christians who use the quote "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" when it's a well known fact that this quote was added to the bible by King James when he created his own version.
    Eh, no, episode 2.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • #4452
    kupus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,151 ✭✭✭kupus


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Sure thing.

    You remind me of neville chamberlain.

    Thats all.


  • #4453
    mynameis905
    Closed Accounts Posts: 754 ✭✭✭mynameis905


    Carlee Tart Wedding wrote: »
    Is this another one of those special bibles that excludes the entire old testament?

    As an atheist I find the bible in it's entirety to be completely batshít crazy but that's besides the point. The old testament is considered to have revealed to the Isrealites and is not considered to apply to Christians.


  • #4454
    mynameis905
    Closed Accounts Posts: 754 ✭✭✭mynameis905


    jimgoose wrote: »
    There is no shortage of hair-raising pre-medieval barbarism in the Judeo-Christian texts either. Far from it. In these it is the earlier tales that feature a bearded Thunderbastard of a deity who is not shy-and-retiring about getting his point across. This is superseded by somewhat fluffier character in the later instalments. But for some reason the whole notion of reverting to an ancient, "perfect" and hideously intolerant and violent way of life keeps cropping up in Islam in a way that you don't see with other major interpretations, and also for some reason a lot of people seem to be drawn to it.

    Islam is the reverse - the earlier, fluffy stuff has been replaced by the death to the infidels kind of shíte.

    As a religion it's about 500 years younger than Christianity. The Arab world is very similar to Europe around the time of the Spanish inquisition. What we're seeing now is the result of medieval barbarity mixed with modern technology and weapons. You can guess the result.


  • #4455
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    mynameis905 wrote: »
    As an atheist I find the bible in it's entirety to be completely batshít crazy but that's besides the point. The old testament is considered to have revealed to the Isrealites and is not considered to apply to Christians.

    Largely, yes. Although the degree to which the Old Testament is considered relevant varies from sect to sect, denomination to denomination. Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo, for example, is probably the one that stands out in this regard, and that's descended from the old Coptic outfit. Technically, they weren't allowed to go to the bathroom either... :pac:


  • #4456
    Duggy747
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭Duggy747


    Lollipops23 wrote: »
    I'm getting really sick of people a) giving out about us not being "as upset" about the other horrible things happening in the name of Allah (eg. suicide bombs in Lebanon last week) and b)for people changing their profilers on FB.

    My parents live in France. They're there right now. I've been going to the country at least once a year since the age of 13. That's 15 years, every year. I think I'm permitted to be particularly shaken by this.

    Aside from this, it shouldn't matter. Humans are always going to be affected by stuff that's both mentally and physically closer to home; I doubt most of these naysayers could find Lebanon on a map, not that that should lessen the sadness at innocent people losing their lives.

    People need to stop with the contrarian faux-worldliness. Let people grieve.

    If you want to actually help in some small way; educate people on Islam. If you can find the time to read up on it yourself, that is.

    Kinda annoys me when people go on about the likes of that: "People don't care for brown people" / "You only care because they're white" / "The news won't show what happened in Beirut!")

    I never see those people put up anything about those news items on social media or start threads here at all. Only time they're mentioned is when they're used as ammunition against people for caring about X and not Y.

    Reeks of trying to come across as morally and intellectually superior to those around them.


  • #4457
    nxbyveromdwjpg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,402 ✭✭✭nxbyveromdwjpg


    mynameis905 wrote: »
    As an atheist I find the bible in it's entirety to be completely batshít crazy but that's besides the point. The old testament is considered to have revealed to the Isrealites and is not considered to apply to Christians.

    So is this statement, that's been repeated in this thread numerous times by bible bashers (to explain how much better one make believe fairytale is to another), true or false in your opinion -

    "The bible doesn't mention any instruction to kill people"

    To me, that is not true. It's false.

    They then go on to explain that they only meant certain sections, or that context is important, and so on but that doesn't make the original the statement itself any more correct. It's a false and misleading statement.


  • #4458
    mynameis905
    Closed Accounts Posts: 754 ✭✭✭mynameis905


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Eh, no. One version and a vigorously theologically defended one at that.

    Exactly.

    There is however debate among muslims about the hadith.


  • #4459
    mynameis905
    Closed Accounts Posts: 754 ✭✭✭mynameis905


    Carlee Tart Wedding wrote: »
    So is this statement, that's been repeated in this thread numerous times by bible bashers (to explain how much better one make believe fairytale is to another), true or false in your opinion -

    "The bible doesn't mention any instruction to kill people"

    To me, that is not true. It's false.

    They then go on to explain that they only meant certain sections, or that context is important, and so on but that doesn't make the original the statement itself any more correct. It's a false and misleading statement.

    It contains plenty of instructions about killing/raping/pillaging and all kinds of fun and games. I don't think anyone would argue that but essentially

    1) The rather more peaceful new testament is considered to be more relevant and to have effectively replaced the old

    2) Western society has more or less moved on from taking the bible literally.


  • #4460
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    mynameis905 wrote: »
    ...As a religion it's about 500 years younger than Christianity. The Arab world is very similar to Europe around the time of the Spanish inquisition. What we're seeing now is the result of medieval barbarity mixed with modern technology and weapons. You can guess the result.

    Yes, 500 years would be about right. The Conquistadores back in the day would've made the hair stand up on even some of these ISIS hardarses.


  • #4461
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Eh, no. One version and a vigorously theologically defended one at that.
    Interesting
    Wibbs wrote: »
    Eh, no, episode 2.
    Damn, I was convinced it was King James. Still a late addition though.


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  • #4462
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    It is beneficial to western muslims that several muslims died in the attack , muslim owned businesses were attacked and a muslim guard saved many lives at the stadium. It shows that the french muslim community at large is completely unassociated with extremists, though tragic that lives needed to be taken to prove this point to people.


  • #4463
    TommyKnocker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭TommyKnocker


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    exactly! people expect people to be upset about something they didn't even know happened

    And THAT is exactly what people are on about I believe.

    43 innocent people were blown up in Lebanon at an open air market the day before the Paris attack at the hands of the same extremist group and it did not get much/any coverage in the main stream media. Granted the Paris attack had 3 times as many casualties, but it was all over the news, social media in minutes and had people changing their profile photos to the French tricolor and adding "Je Suis Pairs" to the statuses. Facebook itself had/has a "safe" feature so people in Paris can let their loved ones know that they are safe. And all this is good.

    However some people, quite rightly in my opinion, question why only some innocent lives lost to terrorism are worthy of such a reaction. Where was the "Je suis Lebanon" the day before? or the FB "safe" option so people who have friends and family there could check on their loved ones?

    This was not done to have a pop at people who have friends or family in Paris while having none in Lebanon. It is done to highlight the bias and what looks like racism in the main stream media and by many on social media.


  • #4464
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    kupus wrote: »
    You remind me of neville chamberlain.

    Thats all.

    Where's my white feather dammit!


  • #4465
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    TommyKnocker wrote: »
    And THAT is exactly what people are on about I believe.

    43 innocent people were blown up in Lebanon at an open air market the day before the Paris attack at the hands of the same extremist group and it did not get much/any coverage in the main stream media. Granted the Paris attack had 3 times as many casualties, but it was all over the news, social media in minutes and had people changing their profile photos to the French tricolor and adding "Je Suis Pairs" to the statuses. Facebook itself had/has a "safe" feature so people in Paris can let their loved ones know that they are safe. And all this is good.

    However some people, quite rightly in my opinion, question why only some innocent lives lost to terrorism are worthy of such a reaction. Where was the "Je suis Lebanon" the day before? or the FB "safe" option so people who have friends and family there could check on their loved ones?

    This was not done to have a pop at people who have friends or family in Paris while having none in Lebanon. It is done to highlight the bias and what looks like racism in the main stream media and by many on social media.

    https://medium.com/@martinbelam/you-won-t-read-about-this-in-the-media-but-b275d46fd51f

    Out of curiosity, did you put up anything yourself about the bombing in Lebanon on November 12th.


  • #4466
    Gaygooner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭Gaygooner


    mynameis905 wrote: »
    As an atheist I find the bible in it's entirety to be completely batshít crazy but that's besides the point. The old testament is considered to have revealed to the Isrealites and is not considered to apply to Christians.

    The 10 commandments???


  • #4467
    kupus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,151 ✭✭✭kupus


    I have more friends in Paris than i do Lebanon as do a lot more people here i imagine.
    This does not happen much in Europe whereas fighting in middle east is ongoing.

    its not racism so get that stupid logic out of your head or youll end up like some of the other posters here with their heads either up their own azz or buried completely under the sand.


  • #4468
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    TommyKnocker wrote: »
    This was not done to have a pop at people who have friends or family in Paris while having none in Lebanon. It is done to highlight the bias and what looks like racism in the main stream media and by many on social media.

    It's not racist though. How can you say it's racist?


  • #4469
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    mynameis905 wrote: »
    I am sick to the teeth of this misconception. The Koran was written over a 20 year period. The early verses are full of the love and peace and 'there is no compulsion in religion' stuff that the apologists love to trot out whenever anyone dares to claim that Islam is a violent religion.

    The early verses were written at a time when Muhammad had very, very followers. As he gained power the later verses get increasingly violent as he united modern day Saudi Arabia under his rule. The problem is that the earlier, peaceful verses are considered to have been abrogated by the later ones, i.e they have been replaced by the more violent ones and no longer count



    Not really. The average muslim living in the west might be peaceful but there is huge support among the muslim community for the likes of sharia law. Their values are fundamentally opposed to western civilisation.



    For the second time - to Muslims, the Quran represents the literal, perfect and unchanging word of god. They do not believe that just because it was written 1400 years ago that it is now irrelevant.You're looking at this through your own western bias and expecting Muslims to do the same. They do not.

    But... but... the version of the Quran available now was complied by Uthman after Muhammad's death and all other versions - including those approved by Muhammad - were destroyed.

    Which is pretty much what was done to the Bible by Constantine.

    Muslims believe the Quran is the literally the word of God.
    Christians believe the Bible is literally the word of God.

    Both are really just the versions approved by rulers who wanted a codified, unifying, religion with no disputes and divisive 'heresies' causing problems.


  • #4470
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/11/16/record-number-of-terrorism-experts-report-for-duty-in-internet-comment-sections/
    Record Number Of Terrorism Experts Report For Duty In Internet Comment Sections

    Due to the harrowing scenes emanating from Paris, many terrorist experts simply didn’t have the time to show evidence of their credentials before launching into lengthy rants online.
    However, many experts performed a meaningful service to those readers who made the mistake of scrolling down beyond the article and into the comment sections as experts explained they were in possession of all the facts about everything, despite the still unfolding situation.
    “That’s refugees for you, all of them should be shot,” explained Carmel Cummings, a Waterford based mother of children and shop owner, capturing the mood of many whose hearts went out to the victims of the senseless attacks.


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  • #4471
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,894 ✭✭✭Jelle1880


    TommyKnocker wrote: »
    And THAT is exactly what people are on about I believe.

    43 innocent people were blown up in Lebanon at an open air market the day before the Paris attack at the hands of the same extremist group and it did not get much/any coverage in the main stream media. Granted the Paris attack had 3 times as many casualties, but it was all over the news, social media in minutes and had people changing their profile photos to the French tricolor and adding "Je Suis Pairs" to the statuses. Facebook itself had/has a "safe" feature so people in Paris can let their loved ones know that they are safe. And all this is good.

    However some people, quite rightly in my opinion, question why only some innocent lives lost to terrorism are worthy of such a reaction. Where was the "Je suis Lebanon" the day before? or the FB "safe" option so people who have friends and family there could check on their loved ones?

    This was not done to have a pop at people who have friends or family in Paris while having none in Lebanon. It is done to highlight the bias and what looks like racism in the main stream media and by many on social media.

    Racism ? Behave ffs.

    Do you know that this is the 5th bombing this year in Lebanon ?

    That there were 16 last year ? 6 in 2013 ? Multiple shootings down the years ?
    A perfect quote on reddit: You don't report a fire in a furnace.

    Beirut is not 'forgotten', it has been in every major news outlet. It is perfectly normal for Europeans to be more shocked about Paris being attacked like this than Beirut, just like very likely people from countries around Lebanon will be more shocked about that.

    The way some people here and on social media make it into be a point scoring contest is pathetic.

    Most of them probably don't even know where Lebanon is if you give them a map.


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