Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

RDM_83 again · 16-11-2015 03:12AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That's where I fundamentally disagree with many in this thread, I think. I've always felt that the "they hate our way of life" argument is a cop out. It was used to explain Bin Laden's desire to attack America in 2001, even after video footage of him discussing the aftermath of the attacks with some people emerged, showing him explicitly tying his campaign of violence to US policy in the Middle East. They hate Western foreign policy far more than our way of life, IMO.

Al qaeda while murderous fanatics etc actually have a more developed world view than ISIS (which was a hive of of Al qeda in Iraq segments).

Al Qaeda often takes a similar approach to Western aid workers operating in its midst: on at least two occasions, senior leaders of the Al Qaeda-linked Jabhat al-Nusra implored the Islamic State to release Western aid workers the Islamic State had captured and were threatening to execute. The leaders of the Al Qaeda affiliate argued that Alan Henning and later Peter Kassig were innocent aid workers who were risking their lives to help ease the suffering of Muslims in Syria and that kidnapping and executing them was “wrong under Islamic law” and “counter-productive.”3 Unfortunately, the Islamic State was not swayed by such arguments, and both men were horrifically executed

In territory it controls, the Islamic State uses mass executions, public beheadings, rape, and symbolic crucifixion displays to terrorize the population into submission and “purify” the community, and at the same time provides basic (if minimal) services: the mix earns them some support, or at least acquiescence due to fear, from the population. Al Qaeda, in contrast, favors a more gentle approach. A decade ago Zawahiri chastised the Iraqi jihadists for their brutality, correctly believing this would turn the population against them and alienate the broader Muslim community, and he has raised this issue in the current conflict as well. Al Qaeda recommends proselytizing in the parts of Syria where its affiliate Jabhat al-Nusra holds sway, trying to convince local Muslims to adopt Al Qaeda’s views rather than forcing them to do so. The Islamic State’s lesson from Iraq, somewhat incredibly, is that it was not brutal enough

http://www.brookings.edu/research/testimony/2015/04/29-terrorism-in-africa-byman

BoatMad · 16-11-2015 03:19AM

Why are crimes a bad thing when practised by individuals on a small scale, but justifiable when practised by nation states on a massive scale

Well primarily , because crime is a breaking of law and traditionally law is a function of the internal nation state.

Land disputes ( and ultimately the Middle East is just the same as elsewhere ) have always resulted in solutions being imposed by force , way more times then imposed by dialogue.

The recent Middle East nation states are by and large arbitrarily creations of the west following the fall of the Ottoman Empire, then exacerbated by the withdrawal and Demise of the great European imperial powers.

That created a vacumn , into which the US has never properly stepped into, resulting in half hearted adventures and then typically going home leaving a mess behind.

Into that mess step the extremists.

The current situation is directly related to the the confrontation between Iran and Iraq and the turmoil in both countries in the last 30 years. This has brought both tribal and religious conflicts to the surface.

Is the west to blame, no it's merely one of the factors.

There's a reason why certain areas have to be ruled autocratically, Yugoslavia , the ottoman/Persian empire , the Chinese empire etc. Why, because these areas like many many others do not have and will never have a consensus of government from its inhabitants.

Strumms · 16-11-2015 03:25AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWPFmdAWRZ0

please watch this clip... the world is ****ed up but we just need...

Yeah_Right · 16-11-2015 03:49AM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

What do you mean by 'you and your supporters?

Sorry. You obviously haven't got the intellectual faculties to debate so you're going to attack phrases out of context. You're out of your depth and you know it. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Whoops. Where did I see that?

You and your supporters, means people that agree with you.

Now tell me, who is to blame for the terrorist attacks in Paris last Friday?

A Primal Nut · 16-11-2015 03:51AM

BoatMad wrote: »

Well primarily , because crime is a breaking of law and traditionally law is a function of the internal nation state.

Land disputes ( and ultimately the Middle East is just the same as elsewhere ) have always resulted in solutions being imposed by force , way more times then imposed by dialogue.

The recent Middle East nation states are by and large arbitrarily creations of the west following the fall of the Ottoman Empire, then exacerbated by the withdrawal and Demise of the great European imperial powers.

That created a vacumn , into which the US has never properly stepped into, resulting in half hearted adventures and then typically going home leaving a mess behind.

Into that mess step the

extremists

.

The current situation is directly related to the the confrontation between Iran and Iraq and the turmoil in both countries in the last 30 years. This has brought both tribal and religious conflicts to the surface.

Is the west to blame, no it's merely one of the factors.

All the more reason not to bring them over here. We're basically inviting them in.

Samaris · 16-11-2015 03:56AM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Sorry. You obviously haven't got the intellectual faculties to debate so you're going to attack phrases out of context. You're out of your depth and you know it. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Whoops. Where did I see that?

You and your supporters, means people that agree with you.

Now tell me, who is to blame for the terrorist attacks in Paris last Friday?

The terrorists, no-one else. The fanatics that have decided that they have a holy war to be waged in the most cowardly way possible. We've seen it before and we of all people should actually comprehend this method of fighting.

It is not the fault of ordinary Syrian people, of refugees who are desperate enough to cram themselves into what can be charitably called boats with their families to try get to safe land and a better life across the Mediterranean.

It's not the fault of the civilians in Paris or the civilians in the Middle East. It is not the fault of "immigration" and it's not the fault of people not having guns. It is not the fault of "the liberals".

It's the fault of the people who planned and carried out an atrocity against innocent people on Friday night.

BoatMad · 16-11-2015 03:58AM

Strumms wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWPFmdAWRZ0

please watch this clip... the world is ****ed up but we just need...

....is not yet another nonsensical diatribe about how good we should be.

StringerBell · 16-11-2015 04:03AM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

What do you mean by 'you and your supporters?

A. You - Well, you, as in you.
B. Your Supporters - Most likely those who have thanked your posts or posted agreeing with them.

BoatMad · 16-11-2015 04:04AM

It's important to remember that unlike Al-Quaida , IS is driven by the need to rid Islam and Muslim countries of apostates. That's it's driving goal. Even the If the west was not involved, IS would be slaughtering Shias, Arab Christians and other apostates as it sees it.

IS really just wants the west to but out, and leave it to butcher its own people. It's not primarily anti-western the way Al-Quaida was.

However the west IS involved for better or worse and we need to finish the job we started.

StringerBell · 16-11-2015 04:09AM

They would be slaughtering plenty of Muslims alright, but the Christians (who are not apostates) would be ok to live their lives as long as they pay a tax (jizya) and acknowledge subjugation.

It is anti West in the sense that it needs a war with the "Armies of Rome" to fulfill its destiny ultimately, and get this for ****s and giggles, Jesus is going to be the one who spears the anti messiah and saves the day for them basically.

Yeah_Right · 16-11-2015 04:22AM

Samaris wrote: »

The terrorists, no-one else. The fanatics that have decided that they have a holy war to be waged in the most cowardly way possible. We've seen it before and we of all people should actually comprehend this method of fighting.

It is not the fault of ordinary Syrian people, of refugees who are desperate enough to cram themselves into what can be charitably called boats with their families to try get to safe land and a better life across the Mediterranean.

It's not the fault of the civilians in Paris or the civilians in the Middle East. It is not the fault of "immigration" and it's not the fault of people not having guns. It is not the fault of "the liberals".

It's the fault of the people who planned and carried out an atrocity against innocent people on Friday night.

I agree with you. And I say we must fight them wherever we find them. Without mercy. And we must find them wherever they hide. And destroy them.

By "we" I mean Western civilisation. By "them" I mean Islamic fundamentalists.

BoatMad · 16-11-2015 04:26AM

StringerBell wrote: »

They would be slaughtering plenty of Muslims alright, but the Christians (who are not apostates) would be ok to live their lives as long as they pay a tax (jizya) and acknowledge subjugation.

It is anti West in the sense that it needs a war with the "Armies of Rome" to fulfill its destiny ultimately, and get this for ****s and giggles, Jesus is going to be the one who spears the anti messiah and saves the day for them basically.

IS sees any people's living in the territories as apostates if they don't agree with IS peculiar view of Islam. Hence it regards Arab Christians as apostates, which is what I mean.

As I said , it is not focused on the west the way OSB was. It doesn't care about Christians in Christian lands. It uses the west as a convienent whipping boy of course.

BoatMad · 16-11-2015 04:31AM

I agree with you. And I say we must fight them wherever we find them. Without mercy. And we must find them wherever they hide. And destroy them.

By "we" I mean Western civilisation. By "them" I mean Islamic fundamentalists.

I agree, and we need to be prepared that in progressing such goal , a lot of innocents will die unfortunately

We also have to accept that we will have to govern such countries /territories /lands for decades in order to prevent the rise of such extremists. Lifting people out of poverty tends to help dissuade them from becoming or listening to terrorists.

The idea we can subdue IS from the air is incredulous

StringerBell · 16-11-2015 04:37AM

BoatMad wrote: »

IS sees any people's living in the territories as apostates if they don't agree with IS peculiar view of Islam. Hence it regards Arab Christians as apostates, which is what I mean.

As I said , it is not focused on the west the way OSB was. It doesn't care about Christians in Christian lands. It uses the west as a convienent whipping boy of course.

Christians are not apostates to IS

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apostate

I knew what you meant, I am showing you that what you meant is wrong.

BoatMad · 16-11-2015 04:50AM

StringerBell wrote: »

Christians are not apostates to IS

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apostate

I knew what you meant, I am showing you that what you meant is wrong.

Both Assryian Christians and Egyptian Coptics would disagree with you.

The IS view has changed

But in the latest edition of its English-language magazine Dabiq, the group listed Christians among IS's main enemies.
It said IS advocated jihad against "the Jews, the Christians, the Rafida [Shia] and the proponents of democracy".

StringerBell · 16-11-2015 05:00AM

BoatMad wrote: »

Both Assryian Christians and Egyptian Coptics would disagree with you.

The IS view has changed

Honestly, I don't know how I can make it clearer to you what an apostate is, or how it would be impossible for someone born a Christian could be an apostate to a Muslim so I'll just give up on that.

The IS view of what has changed?

The tax on Christians finds clear endorsement in the Surah Al-Tawba, the Koran’s ninth chapter, which instructs Muslims to fight Christians and Jews “until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

They cannot change their view on that. It is set down in the Koran, to go against it would make them apostate in their own eyes.

Have you read

Islamic State (opposite of Al-Queda), precisely because of its ideology. It sees enemies everywhere around it, and while its leadership wishes ill on the United States, the application of Sharia in the caliphate and the expansion to contiguous lands are paramount. Baghdadi has said as much directly: in November he told his Saudi agents to “deal with the rafida [Shia] first … then al-Sulul [Sunni supporters of the Saudi monarchy] … before the crusaders and their bases.”

meepins · 16-11-2015 06:28AM

BoatMad wrote: »

Any ways , guys and girls, you can debate to your hearts content. But in the meantime the west will begin the process of eradicating IS from the planet.

The time for talking is over , the west needs to stiffen its back. It's time to support massive armed intervention. Until we end this menace or at very least neutralise it, these attroticies will continue.

Here's why I think it will make little difference:

SpaceSasqwatch wrote: »

I'd say discriminating against someone on their religion is against the law...even if they werent an irish citizen.

I'd personally would be into getting rid of the scumbags.

Take a refugee in , get rid of an Irish bigot.

Nothing is going to change until the prevalence of this mindset drastically diminishes. These attacks come as no surprise to us, it was only a couple of months ago in France where that muslim terrorist was stopped from massacring people on the train and not long before of course the Hebdo massacre. It won't be a surprise when Germany, England and France suffer more horrendous terrorist attacks and if anywhere is a soft target it's right here. Any inbred, cousin f**king lunatic with two IQ points to rub together would have no trouble causing mayhem here and they've got plenty of those in supply.
These attacks came because they were invited. No actual Frenchman strapped on a suicide vest and unleashed carnage or slaughtered people at a concert in Paris. Likewise no actual British man detonated a bomb on a train or bus, killing passengers and himself. Until we stop making excuses for these attacks against us and rambling on nonsensically about what the IRA did or the crusades nearly a millennia ago, it's going to keep happening. We need to recognise that we are a people and take our own side against our enemies, something we would have done naturally in the past. This idea that all people are the same, that they are interchangeable and there is no difference - it's garbage and it has brought this upon us.

Nodin · 16-11-2015 07:31AM

P_1 wrote: »

We need to find a way of dealing with those who use religion to justify their vile actions though. Would removing their access to said religion be an option I wonder?

Hardly. Besides, removing access to a certain religion didn't make us change, did it?

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

ITT: Operation Ajax is a fictional event.

No, unfortunately.
http://www.coldwar.org/articles/50s/OperationAjax.asp

TommyKnocker · 16-11-2015 08:22AM

Just posting this here as this came up a number of times in the thread

An open letter from a global group of Muslim scholars to Daesh

LordSutch · 16-11-2015 08:24AM

Nodin wrote: »

Hardly. Besides, removing access to a certain religion didn't make us change, did it?

What are you and Junkyard Tom even doing in this thread ?

As hardened supporters of what Irish Republicans did with Bombs and shootings, surely you have no business on here, trying to blend in to the discussion like a shadow in the night.

You guys supported the bombings & shootings by your friends, and now you try to come over all clean and anti atrocity. Too many times we've seen body parts being scraped off the pavements in this part of the world. "Spectaculars" I think they were called?

EoghanIRL · 16-11-2015 09:22AM

https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/3sxlxz/they_diserve_some_credits_to_the_medical_staff_of/

fed up sick and tired · 16-11-2015 10:15AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Muslims launch #notinmyname campaign.

http://mashable.com/2014/09/22/notinmyname-muslims-anti-isis-social-media-campaign/?utm_campaign=Mash-Prod-RSS-Feedburner-All-Partial&utm_cid=Mash-Prod-RSS-Feedburner-All-Partial&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it#.SKimTX.GiqO

In September 2014.

Did your historical training not teach you to check your sources ?

fed up sick and tired · 16-11-2015 10:20AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And?

Did I say 'just' launched?

People have been complaining that moderate Muslims aren't distancing themselves - well lookit - a campaign launched a fricking year ago.

But you did say 'Muslims launch...', not 'Muslims launched...'.

Words mean specific things you know.

It is really too dambusters to wiggle out of it now, just to suit your own highjinks.

16-11-2015 10:54AM

LordSutch wrote: »

What are you and Junkyard Tom even doing in this thread ?

As hardened supporters of what Irish Republicans did with Bombs and shootings, surely you have no business on here, trying to blend in to the discussion like a shadow in the night.

You guys supported the bombings & shootings by your friends, and now you try to come over all clean and anti atrocity. Too many times we've seen body parts being scraped off the pavements in this part of the world. "Spectaculars" I think they were called?

Says he who supports a country that committed some of the worst atrocities the world has ever seen.let he who hath not sinned....etc etc

LordSutch · 16-11-2015 11:02AM

droidman123 wrote: »

Says he who supports a country that committed some of the worst atrocities the world has ever seen.let he who hath not sinned....etc etc

The UK, France, USA, Spain, Germany all have histories.

What we're talking about here are Terrorist organizations within countries who systematically bomb and maim as a means to an end, hence my previous post.

Strange the way you turned that around :cool:

unless you too are/were a supporter of the bomb & the ballot box?

halkar · 16-11-2015 11:03AM

This has nothing to do with Islam or Muslims. Recently there were bombings in Beirut 43 leaving 43 dead and last month in Turkey Ankara leaving 103 dead. They were all Muslims. It makes no difference to IS who they kill.

Flint Fredstone · 16-11-2015 11:06AM

halkar wrote: »

This has nothing to do with Islam

Yes it does.

fed up sick and tired · 16-11-2015 11:08AM

halkar wrote: »

This has nothing to do with Islam or Muslims. Recently there were bombings in Beirut 43 leaving 43 dead and last month in Turkey Ankara leaving 103 dead. They were all Muslims. It makes no difference to IS who they kill.

It has EVERYTHING to do with Islam.

TommyKnocker · 16-11-2015 11:08AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Would you laugh(if you could) at Cromwell and his settlers/planters if they were attacked, and settlements burned? I would, **** your moral superiority, they are colonisers, you cant just go to another country and declare a chunk of it belongs to you, and then cry when the natives start kicking your arse. Burma for the Burmese.

Does this also extend to Palestine for the Palestinians and the Zionists have no right to declare a chunk of the holy lands as the State of Israel and home of the Jews?

Penn · 16-11-2015 11:12AM

halkar wrote: »

This has nothing to do with Islam or Muslims. Recently there were bombings in Beirut 43 leaving 43 dead and last month in Turkey Ankara leaving 103 dead. They were all Muslims. It makes no difference to IS who they kill.

Agree partially, but you cannot deny that IS are using Islam as their justification for these acts based on their interpretation of Islam. It's in their name; Islamic State.

I'm not saying their interpretation of it is the right interpretation of it and obviously the number of Muslims who would agree with them and support them is a minuscule percentage, but to say this has nothing to do with Islam is ridiculous.

Their beliefs come from their interpretation of their faith, and it gives them their justification for committing these acts.

Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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