Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

It would be such a comfort to know that at a gig at Whelans with a lot of pissed up fûckers that half of them would be carrying guns. Ohh and that Swedish House Mafia gig a few years ago would have been wonderful as well.

kleefarr wrote: »

Some very strong comments here from both sides of the coin.
I can see both view points.
It's one farked up world and who do we have to blame for that? Politicians!

Warning! Graphic photo.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=06d_1447585266

Poor things. RIP.
Like an abbatoir.

Evil scumbags whoever could do that.

stefanovich wrote: »

I read his tweets in his voice in my head Kinda disturbing.

Anyway, I'll wait for proper confirmation. Snow is totally biased.

So, anything up on Breitbart yet? :rolleyes:

The crusades (& that's a plural btw, there were several wars that could be labelled under that title) really don't paint any side in a favourable light. Muslims were not helpless victims just minding their own business while the Christian armies were not selfless types bravely defending pilgrims. Both sides plundered & pillaged, often killing completely innocent people - the Jews of Europe suffered particularly badly from the attentions of these honourable Christians.

stefanovich wrote: »

Yes but your man from Breitbart is gay. GAY. Don't be homophobic!

Thinking that gay people can't be right-wing nut jobs is homophobic. :cool:

Nodin wrote: »

Drivel by a known wingnut. His phd isn't in the area he's crapping on about either.

I dont care about Bill Warner, he could be an employee at Disneyland for all It matters, the fact that Islam for the greater part of a thousand years has been engaged in conquest against Europe is the issue. Islamic preachers say this, their holy book says it, ISIS say it, muslims in Europe say it in surveys(that they want sharia law etc etc). Yet everyone ignores it and comes up with explanation after explanation to account for the Islamic war on Europe, which is what these attacks are, as opposed to recognising it for what it is.

As I was waiting for your reply I got the feeling that we were de-railing a thread on gun control until I re-read the title

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You are misreading my point - or perhaps I am not making it very well.

There is hysteria - hysteria that is being fed by all kinds of groups to suit their own agendas and part of that hysterical narrative is 'ALL Muslims are bad' - now, I get concerned when I see any group of people being thus described because I know what has happened in the past when the language of hate based on religion or ethnicity becomes the norm.

This is not the first (and sadly won't be the last) time we have seen such hysteria about the 'threat' posed by those who are 'other' -and it has always ended in countless innocent people losing their lives just because they were members of that broad group defined as 'other'.

There may well be hysteria out there, its plainly obvious that certain sections of the media not only thrive off of hysteria but like to fan it up as well, however none of these can manufacture complaints out of thin air and so long as it continues the real driving force behind any hysteria is going to be the experience of Islamist terror attacks as they strike, be that the London Tube Bombings or the Paris attacks.

Rhetorical damage control, things such as 'most Muslims don't support these acts' or 'Islam as a religion of peace' are platitudes which don't actually involve tackling the root issue, and I think make the rather generous assumption that people acting out on group hate in racist attacks actually watch these complex debates on the issue and get swayed by such words. It is actions that will speak, and for all this talk of making sure we don't succumb to Islamophobia, we have yet to see Muslim communities in Europe face the kind of attacks that we just saw in Paris.

ISIS speak the language of hate - are we not better than them?
Not if we do the exactly same we aren't. If we drop bombs on innocent civilians, if we allow children to drown to further our own political agendas then we too are guilty of crimes against humanity. We don't use sword - we use drones - the intention is the same - to show we can and will execute without mercy and if the innocent die along the way so be it. It's for the greater good (as defined by our desires).

If we use the same language and adopt the same intolerant mindset they win because liberal democratic Europe will be no more and that is what they want. Does it matter what insignia is on the black shirt when the results are the same

The way to tackle extremism is to not allow it to take hold. Refuse it space in our minds. Do not allow it to dictate our way of life. Remove the oxygen that feeds it.

Better is a relative term, we might hold ourselves to a higher moral standard than ISIS (given some of the videos they produce just about everyone does), but we still bleed like ISIS when we are wounded and we still die like them when we are attacked. This talk of simply 'out-loving' ISIS by being more open and more tolerant than before, by taking in more refugees and sending more aid and doing just about everything we can to make ourselves feel so smug and progressive, seems to be missing the point; ISIS is not a threat because we've been Oh So Naughty, it is a threat because it purports to establish a worldwide Caliphate with the Sharia as its law and fundamentalist Islam as its mantra. Now if we don't challenge that core idea, by combating the idea that an Islamist Theocracy is somewhere ANYONE would want to live, that fundamentalist Islam is an untouchable 'one true faith' and that ISIS or any variant of Islamic terrorism is 'all out fault' (don't mistake this for me suggesting we have had no role in the matter) then all we are doing is window dressing and simply hoping that the fanatics will get bored and go home. This I would venture, is naive at best, self destructive at worst.

I am reading and hearing a lot of very hateful comments from Irish people living in Ireland about the 'evil' Muslims and many of these people would be hard pressed to tell you when they had ever had a single interaction with a Muslim in their lives. No Muslim has harmed them. No Muslim has threatened them - and yet such hatred. But not such hatred towards the RCC which - in an Irish context - has caused so much suffering and hurt to innocent people who had failed to conform to it's ideology. There is a double standard and cognitive dissonance at play here that I find troubling.

Well I'm not sure where you're finding these people with their placid reverence for the Catholic Church because that has certainly not been my experience of people in Ireland. Nevertheless, you cannot fault people for looking out at the rest of Europe, pretty close places with the advent of modern communications and transportation, seeing atrocities like the one in Paris and feeling disgusted by the perpetrators and their ideology and worried that the same thing might happen to them. I suspect the experience of the UK, France et al with mass immigration has also soured them somewhat on the idea of Muslim migrants of any variety.

Also - this rush to blame the 'liberals' and 'lefties' who 'caused' this (apparently). What the hell is that about? Did our insistence on civil liberties, laws to protect rights and welfare, democratic principles, equality, freedom of expression, freedom of belief - you know, all those things that make this thing called Europe- create these madmen?
How did it do that? Is it because those very liberal ideals are the very things they hate?
Possibly.

So now we hear that the way to protect 'our' Europe is to abandon those very ideals and judge all Muslims as guilty because they are Muslim.


What utter nonsense. People with no interest in protecting those very ideals ISIS hate so much are now using this to as an excuse to try and destroy them from within, because they hate them just as much.

Putting aside the rather complex question of what those civil liberties constitute exactly and how they have changed over recent years, I suspect the reason for much anger at what one has dubbed the 'Regressive' Left, has been peddling stories of victim-hood to communities of European Muslims in the aftermath of these attacks, the deferential treatment of Islamist fundamentalists (of the stone women and gays variety) on campuses and in the media as being the only kind of 'authentic Muslim' (see the recent Guardian piece on Abdul Wahid for example) and the comparative scolding of more Liberal progressive Muslims (again see the recent Guardian piece on Maajid Nawaz) and the comparative obsession with Israel does not help. It's the construction of these new victim-hoods narratives in response to peoples genuine concerns about terrorist attacks and the future of their country, which tend to drive people up the wall and I would venture, into the arms of the far right, which naturally enough do not need to trouble themselves with such rhetoric.

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Considering all the planning of these incidents in Paris went unnoticed I find it remarkable that the England V France game goes ahead on Tuesday at Wembley.
What if part of that planning ,that no one clearly knows about is to do the same in and around Wembley on Tuesday.
Seems like a security nightmare to let that game go ahead.
We already know that one of the people involved was a French national and that he could of boarded a plane to uk easily. How many more French nationals are out there who could slip through security and into Wembley on Tuesday.
Seems very plausible that a French ISIS member could travel to that game with a ticket.

In truth, there's much less security risk than you think. It's probably safer now than it has been in the last couple of years - security's sky-high, everyone's keeping a look out. Maybe it's bolting the stable door after the horses have fled, but it's a sad fact that it tends to be "safest" just after something horrendous like this.


As for someone getting in - they tried it. One of the suicide bombers attempted to get into the Stade during the game and was turned away, despite his ticket. He "took a few steps back and detonated his suicide vest", according to the report.

My name is URL wrote: »

So, anything up on Breitbart yet? :rolleyes:

I'm sure The Guardian will be along shortly with an article on how Muslims are the real victims here and that islamophobia is up 700% to satisfy your leanings.

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Very interesting. Thanks.

Islam is taking over the world, they enter different countries and expect the host country to adopt their own traditions and customs, that or they get all iffy and start blowing themselves (and others) up. If they don't like the countries they are in they are more than welcome to go back to where they came from.