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Athletics doping

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    It is rife through the whole of sports, don't know why the Russians have been singled out. The Yanks have been at it for decades and has anyone else noticed how the Chinese have exploded in winning things in the last ten years in sports where they had absolutely no history in doing well in before?

    Most of the stars of the US team at the 1984 (boycotted by USSR) Los Angeles Olympics were rumoured to have failed drugs tests, but it was conveniently brushed under the carpet..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭Plryty


    Don't really care about doping in sport.

    There is nothing essentially noble about sport (despite sport trying to tell you it is).Sport is just another form of entertainment like TV,Cinema and as long as the participants understand what they are taking and the potential affects of it then I don't see the big deal over it.

    Sport is inherently unfair to begin with and athletics in particular is as the results are pre determined by genetics.How is it fair that Usain Bolt is clearly a freak of nature and competing against people who weren't lucky enough to have his good genes.

    Genetics is only a single factor in the success of any world athletes talent. Are you actually trying to argue that genetics is the sole determinant of a gold medalist being world champion?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,639 ✭✭✭feargale



    Sport is inherently unfair to begin with and athletics in particular is as the results are pre determined by genetics.

    Goodbye, Miss World.

    P.S. I'll never play conkers again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    It is rife through the whole of sports, don't know why the Russians have been singled out.

    Two Russian whistle blowers stepped forward, they weren't just randomly singled out for investigation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,073 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    The problem is there is no outlet for sportspeople who want to push themselves with the aid of drugs.

    What we need are alternative Olympics where anything goes. Let the shoot up any auld crap and give the 100m a go.

    It would leave the proper Olympics to be clean.

    It'll never happen though as I'd suspect the Steroid Olympics would get much better viewing figures. I mean, who wouldn't want to see the 100m done in sub 5 seconds.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,365 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    Don't really care about doping in sport.

    There is nothing essentially noble about sport (despite sport trying to tell you it is).Sport is just another form of entertainment like TV,Cinema and as long as the participants understand what they are taking and the potential affects of it then I don't see the big deal over it.

    What????

    In Boxing/MMA the worst case scenario is that someone who is on PEDs KOs there opponent which somehow leads to a career ending concussion etc. Imagine if the fighter that caused the injury failed post-fight drug tests? Disaster the either sport.

    Doping, as hard as it is to be rid of 100% needs to be grinded out of all sports - However, it is rife in all sports at ALL levels.

    For anyone who hasn't seen it, Bigger, Stronger, Faster focuses on steroid use and how it is just breezed over/almost glamourised in some places. (The Arnold Classic in Weightlifting don't even test :rolleyes: )



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭The Sidewards Man


    They are all off their heads now, these iron men and women are on the yolks also.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭acb121


    Plryty wrote: »
    Genetics is only a single factor in the success of any world athletes talent. Are you actually trying to argue that genetics is the sole determinant of a gold medalist being world champion?

    When a person of genetic white European origin wins the 100 meters running at a future Olympics, I might take you a bit more seriously.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭Plryty


    acb121 wrote: »
    When a person of genetic white European origin wins the 100 meters running at a future Olympics, I might take you a bit more seriously.

    expand on your point.


  • Site Banned Posts: 6,498 ✭✭✭XR3i


    _Brian wrote: »
    The problem is there is no outlet for sportspeople who want to push themselves with the aid of drugs.

    What we need are alternative Olympics where anything goes. Let the shoot up any auld crap and give the 100m a go.

    It would leave the proper Olympics to be clean.

    It'll never happen though as I'd suspect the Steroid Olympics would get much better viewing figures. I mean, who wouldn't want to see the 100m done in sub 5 seconds.


    i did the 100m in 7.1 seconds on ketamine


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭Plryty


    callaway92 wrote: »
    What????

    In Boxing/MMA the worst case scenario is that someone who is on PEDs KOs there opponent which somehow leads to a career ending concussion etc. Imagine if the fighter that caused the injury failed post-fight drug tests? Disaster the either sport.

    Doping, as hard as it is to be rid of 100% needs to be grinded out of all sports - However, it is rife in all sports at ALL levels.

    For anyone who hasn't seen it, Bigger, Stronger, Faster focuses on steroid use and how it is just breezed over/almost glamourised in some places. (The Arnold Classic in Weightlifting don't even test :rolleyes: )


    The weight lifting community sport events are one of the only popular areas where steroid use is not outright frowned upon by the supporters. They are there to be the strongest and/or in incredible shape. It's under the table understood that this will involve using steroids.

    They still put in s disgusting amount of work.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    callaway92 wrote: »
    What????

    In Boxing/MMA the worst case scenario is that someone who is on PEDs KOs there opponent which somehow leads to a career ending concussion etc. Imagine if the fighter that caused the injury failed post-fight drug tests? Disaster the either sport.

    Doping, as hard as it is to be rid of 100% needs to be grinded out of all sports - However, it is rife in all sports at ALL levels.

    For anyone who hasn't seen it, Bigger, Stronger, Faster focuses on steroid use and how it is just breezed over/almost glamourised in some places. (The Arnold Classic in Weightlifting don't even test :rolleyes: )

    Boxers at always at risk of a career ending concussion regardless of whether there are drugs involved.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭acb121


    Plryty wrote: »
    expand on your point.

    From Wikipedia

    " Olympic 100 m medalists in the early editions of the Modern Olympic Games were principally white, Western sprinters of European descent, largely reflecting the make up of the nations that took part.

    As the Olympic competition began to attract wider international participation, athletes with African heritage began to reach the 100 m Olympic podium, particularly African-Americans and Afro-Caribbeans.[85]

    Eddie Tolan became the first non-white winner of the event in 1932 and this signified the start of a prolonged period of success by black male sprinters; since 1932 only five men's Olympic champions in the event have not had significant African heritage.

    The women's event was dominated by runners of European descent until Wilma Rudolph won the title in 1960. Soviet and German women returned to the podium in the period from 1972 to 1980, but since then African-American and Jamaican women have won the great majority of 100 m medals.[85]

    Dominance in the men's event has been particularly pronounced from 1984 to 2012, during which time all the men's Olympic 100 m finalists have been of African heritage.[86]

    Most commentators attribute this statistical discrepancy to genetic rather than to cultural factors. "

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_metres_at_the_Olympics#Race


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    Plryty wrote: »
    Genetics is only a single factor in the success of any world athletes talent. Are you actually trying to argue that genetics is the sole determinant of a gold medalist being world champion?

    In some sports it plays a massive role.

    From Wikipedia: As part of the build-up to the 2012 Summer Olympics, Michael Johnson made a documentary, Survival of the Fastest, for Channel 4 which investigated the dominance of Afro-American and Afro-Caribbean sprinters.The program made the controversial suggestion that a side effect of the slave trade may have been to accelerate natural selection as only the very fittest could survive the brutal process, resulting in a population predisposed to superior athletic performance.In 1988, Jimmy "the Greek" Snyder was fired from his job at CBS Sports for making similar claims.

    I remember watching that Michael Johnson documentary and it pretty much confirmed what I would think most people had a fair idea of already.It took a lot longer for a white European to do do the 100m in 10 seconds compared to black athletes and in a sport where there isn't a huge skill factor genetics play a massive role.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭acb121


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_metres

    " Only male sprinters have beaten the 100 m 10-second barrier, nearly all of them being of West African descent.

    Namibian (formerly South-West Africa) Frankie Fredericks became the first man of non-West African heritage to achieve the feat in 1991 and in 2003 Australia's Patrick Johnson (who has Irish and Indigenous Australian heritage) became the first sub-10-second runner without an African background.[11][12][13][14]

    In the Prefontaine Classic 2015 Diamond League meet at Eugene, Su Bingtian ran a time of 9.99 seconds, becoming the first Asian athlete to officially break the 10-second barrier. In the 2015 Birmingham Grand Prix Diamond League meet, British athlete Adam Gemili, who is of mixed Iranian and Moroccan descent, ran a time of 9.97 seconds on home soil, becoming the first athlete with either North African or Middle Eastern heritage to break the ten-second barrier.[15]

    Of the six men's continental record holders, currently three of them were born in Nigeria.

    It is believed that biological factors may be largely responsible for the notable success in sprinting events enjoyed by athletes of West African descent. This includes:[16]

    Relatively less subcutaneous fat on arms and legs and proportionately more lean body and muscle mass, broader shoulders, larger quadriceps, and bigger, more developed musculature in general;

    Denser, shallower chests;

    Higher center of gravity, generally shorter sitting height, narrower hips, and lighter calves;

    Longer arm span and "distal elongation of segments" – the hand is relatively longer than the forearm, which in turn is relatively longer than the upper arm; the foot is relatively longer than the tibia (leg), which is relatively longer than the thigh;

    Faster patellar tendon reflex;

    Greater body density, which is likely due to higher bone mineral density and heavier bone mass at all stages in life, including infancy (despite evidence of lower calcium intake and a higher prevalence of lactose intolerance, which prevents consumption of dairy products);

    Modestly, but significantly, higher levels of plasma testosterone (3-19 percent), which is anabolic, theoretically contributing to greater muscle mass, lower fat, and the ability to perform at a higher level of intensity with quicker recovery;

    The ACTN3 protein, a "speed gene" most common among persons of West African descent that renders fast twitch muscle fibers fast. African American 200 m and 400 m world champion Michael Johnson has suggested that the presence of ACTN3 is at the root of the success of these athletes in sprinting events;[17][18]

    And finally, a higher percentage of fast-twitch muscle fibers (Type II) and more anaerobic enzymes, which can translate into more explosive energy. The enzyme creatine kinase is abundantly expressed in these fibers. The enzyme rapidly regenerates the biological fuel molecule ATP needed for the sprint. The enzyme has been reported to be twice as high in subjects of sub-Saharan African descent.[19] Creatine kinase is the final common pathway of muscle activity. It is tightly bound to the muscle fibers and directly fuels fast muscle contraction. Therefore, the creatine kinase system is considered to be the major factor, downstream of other factors, that modulates the biological capacity to sprint.[20]

    Top sprinters of differing ancestry, such as Christophe Lemaitre, are believed to be exceptions in that they too likely have the genes favourable for sprinting.[18]

    Colin Jackson, an athlete with mixed ethnic background and former world record holder in the 110 metre hurdles,[21] noted that both his parents were talented athletes and suggested that biological inheritance was the greatest influence, rather than any perceived racial factor. Furthermore, successful black role models in track events may reinforce the racial disparity.[22] "


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭Plryty


    And what about the African descendent runners who don't make it to the finals, or are beaten by non African descent. Do these show less genetically favourable features for running that can attribute to their loss?

    Cause if so. That would seem to uncomfortably suggest a very rigid framework based on racial genetic inheritance that may not be limited to just sports.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭acb121


    You sound a little angry.

    Nobody is suggesting all black people are fast runners. There are millions of people of such african ancestry. No doubt some of them love to stuff their face with chocolate and sit in front of the telly.

    At the highest echelons of sport, be it the 100 metres sprint, or Formula 1, or mens tennis, the difference between winning and losing is wafer thin. A tennis player can score more points, win more games, but lose the match. A Formula 1 driver can do the fastest laps, but a few hundreths of a second on a pitstop could cost him the race if he comes out behind his rival. A runner can join the race on the A of the BANG! instead of the B.

    Just as Formula 1 relies on attention to the tiniest of detail, some people involved in sports involving the human body do all sorts of things to gain the wafer thin edge. Their food is literally measured and weighed before each serving. They train at altitude. They manipulate their weight and body fat. Their injuries are treated at sub zero temperatures or underwater.

    Anything to get that razor thin advantage.

    Some people have that razor thin advantage through birth.

    It would be ridiculous to deny otherwise.

    Otherwise why are we even having a discussion about people taking drugs to try and gain that razor thin advantage over folk more talented or simly more naturally gifted than themselves ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,111 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Plryty wrote: »
    And what about the African descendent runners who don't make it to the finals, or are beaten by non African descent. Do these show less genetically favourable features for running that can attribute to their loss?

    Cause if so. That would seem to uncomfortably suggest a very rigid framework based on racial genetic inheritance that may not be limited to just sports.

    It is a tendency that really only shows up because everything else involved is a given (diet, hard work, other genetic factors). If you took a random segment of the population it is doubtful you would see much of a difference between people of different races. The actual difference it causes seems to be small enough but races at an olympic level are decided by milliseconds so it seems massive. There are other factors that mean that not every African decendent runner can be Bolt. It is noticed only because we only look at the highest level of sport. How much would you notice if you 0.001 faster over a hundred meters?

    In fact it is probably smaller than it seems from the numbers as there is probably some confidence effect and an encouragement effect. I don't think New Zealanders are genetically predisposed to being great at rugby but they always churn out incredible players due to the two above factors. Given most people won't achieve their limit in terms of sport (this includes living 100% as a professional athlete in terms of training and diet).

    As for the topic. Sport is rife with drugs but most agencies learnt their lesson from cycling. What cost cycling so much wasn't the athletes doing drugs, it was getting caught. They are all too afraid to check in case they find something (and probably figure they would). Imagine the effect (not suggesting in the slightest especially given their character) if someone like Roy Keane or Brian O'Driscoll was caught? Their sports would take a nose dive in this country and that would go all over the world for players like Messi or McCaw. It is against their interests to check.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,365 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    Boxers at always at risk of a career ending concussion regardless of whether there are drugs involved.

    If found to be after their opponent was on PEDs it's a different story, especially if it's more than a career ending injury.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭wexandproud


    acb121 wrote: »
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_metres

    " Only male sprinters have beaten the 100 m 10-second barrier, nearly all of them being of West African descent.

    Namibian (formerly South-West Africa) Frankie Fredericks became the first man of non-West African heritage to achieve the feat in 1991 and in 2003 Australia's Patrick Johnson (who has Irish and Indigenous Australian heritage) became the first sub-10-second runner without an African background.[11][12][13][14]

    In the Prefontaine Classic 2015 Diamond League meet at Eugene, Su Bingtian ran a time of 9.99 seconds, becoming the first Asian athlete to officially break the 10-second barrier. In the 2015 Birmingham Grand Prix Diamond League meet, British athlete Adam Gemili, who is of mixed Iranian and Moroccan descent, ran a time of 9.97 seconds on home soil, becoming the first athlete with either North African or Middle Eastern heritage to break the ten-second barrier.[15]

    Of the six men's continental record holders, currently three of them were born in Nigeria.

    It is believed that biological factors may be largely responsible for the notable success in sprinting events enjoyed by athletes of West African descent. This includes:[16]

    Relatively less subcutaneous fat on arms and legs and proportionately more lean body and muscle mass, broader shoulders, larger quadriceps, and bigger, more developed musculature in general;

    Denser, shallower chests;

    Higher center of gravity, generally shorter sitting height, narrower hips, and lighter calves;

    Longer arm span and "distal elongation of segments" – the hand is relatively longer than the forearm, which in turn is relatively longer than the upper arm; the foot is relatively longer than the tibia (leg), which is relatively longer than the thigh;

    Faster patellar tendon reflex;

    Greater body density, which is likely due to higher bone mineral density and heavier bone mass at all stages in life, including infancy (despite evidence of lower calcium intake and a higher prevalence of lactose intolerance, which prevents consumption of dairy products);

    Modestly, but significantly, higher levels of plasma testosterone (3-19 percent), which is anabolic, theoretically contributing to greater muscle mass, lower fat, and the ability to perform at a higher level of intensity with quicker recovery;

    The ACTN3 protein, a "speed gene" most common among persons of West African descent that renders fast twitch muscle fibers fast. African American 200 m and 400 m world champion Michael Johnson has suggested that the presence of ACTN3 is at the root of the success of these athletes in sprinting events;[17][18]

    And finally, a higher percentage of fast-twitch muscle fibers (Type II) and more anaerobic enzymes, which can translate into more explosive energy. The enzyme creatine kinase is abundantly expressed in these fibers. The enzyme rapidly regenerates the biological fuel molecule ATP needed for the sprint. The enzyme has been reported to be twice as high in subjects of sub-Saharan African descent.[19] Creatine kinase is the final common pathway of muscle activity. It is tightly bound to the muscle fibers and directly fuels fast muscle contraction. Therefore, the creatine kinase system is considered to be the major factor, downstream of other factors, that modulates the biological capacity to sprint.[20]

    Top sprinters of differing ancestry, such as Christophe Lemaitre, are believed to be exceptions in that they too likely have the genes favourable for sprinting.[18]

    Colin Jackson, an athlete with mixed ethnic background and former world record holder in the 110 metre hurdles,[21] noted that both his parents were talented athletes and suggested that biological inheritance was the greatest influence, rather than any perceived racial factor. Furthermore, successful black role models in track events may reinforce the racial disparity.[22] "

    if athletes of african descent are such prime examples of athletic ability how come an awful lot of the top ones have tested positive or had questionable results . The very same line was trotted out about armstrong over the years , oh his lung capacity is this and his genetics are that and his recovery is due to something else .... turns out it was all from a test tube
    i firmly believe doping is rampant in most sport and testing should start at national level , there was a story years ago that tester arrived at a soccer ground ,somebody ran in to the dressing rooms and said it , some lads are still running . Now an awful lot of people will say that's crap and maybe it is but an awful lot of the stories about cycling were denied for years .. and guess what


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭acb121


    if athletes of african descent are such prime examples of athletic ability how come an awful lot of the top ones have tested positive or had questionable results .

    I don't know, perhaps you could tell us how many is an awful lot.

    But I would understand, because they are living in a fish bowl and their profession is an arms race in search of a microscopically thin sliver of advantage.

    We cannot even imagine a tenth or hundreth of a second. During their career their entire existence revolves around such things.

    If you are scared other folk are up to stuff, you can't afford to be left behind.

    Which was what happened with Armstrong and his rivals, was it not.

    Except armstrong was being discussed as one man, rather than representative of people with shared genetic heritage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,210 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    Coe should look at British athletics 1st before going after any other country

    ******



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭StewartGriffin


    Cough... cough.. Michelle De Brun, our cycling heroes, top level GAA, our Rugby giants, and that Irish horse, in fact a lot of Irish horses....cough...cough. Put that spade back in the shed lest we bury all our dreams.

    [walks swiftly away.]


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    acb121 wrote: »
    When a person of genetic white European origin wins the 100 meters running at a future Olympics, I might take you a bit more seriously.

    Christophe Lemaitre (white French) and Adam Gemili (British/Iranian/Moroccan heritage) sub-10 seconds for 100m. Bingtian Su (Chinese) under 10 seconds twice this year. They aren't that far behind.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭StewartGriffin


    And in other news..following the retrospective disqualification of all other runners Fr. Neil Horan has been named the winner of the 2004 men's Olympic marathon....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭acb121


    Christophe Lemaitre (white French) and Adam Gemili (British/Iranian/Moroccan heritage) sub-10 seconds for 100m. Bingtian Su (Chinese) under 10 seconds twice this year. They aren't that far behind.

    As I said, winner.

    Winning is everything.

    In the context of this discussion has taken, Gemeli is not "British". That's his political nationality, not his genetic heritage.

    They can be as near behind as they like.

    Nobody remembers the man who was 6th or 7th despite all runners finishing within 9 tenths of a second of each other between 9.90 and 9.99

    the other lad is Chinese ? Well,the discussion is about doping ...

    The french lad looks intiguing. Facsinating to note that Wiki says he was the first white man to break 10 seconds and the 71st individual to do it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭acb121


    Actually, they ARE that far behind.

    Bolt's World Record is record is 9.76.

    Lematrie is 2 tents of a second behind.

    In terms of sprinting at the highest level, hes about a mile behind.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,822 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Wait this is AH and we're over 50 posts in and no one has mentioned that the leader of the investigation is called Dick Pound?! No one? For shame!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,540 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    Why do people care? Genuine question. Anyone I've spoken to about this (which happens rarely) doesn't care and might even go so far as to say 'let them at it'. All the testing must cost a fortune.

    As regards the poster boy; people call Armstrong a cheat, but he can't have been the only one.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 972 ✭✭✭WarZ


    Britain is just as bad, didn't they cover up 7 positive tests? (4 of them were Mo Farahs)


This discussion has been closed.
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