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Mary says YES!

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Kev W wrote: »
    Atheists's don't believe in God or Gods full stop. Approving or not approving of religion is a personal standpoint.


    So dou you approve of religion?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    swampgas wrote: »
    Atheists don't believe in any God or Gods. What they think of religion is irrelevant to being an atheist.

    .


    And do you approve of religion?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    lazygal wrote: »
    How is it the same?

    Do you approve of religion?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    So dou you approve of religion?

    I neither approve nor disapprove. It's not a simple subject. It's like asking "do you approve of beer?" I don't care for it but if other people like it and they're not trying to force me into drinking it or passing it out in schools that's their business.

    That's an imperfect analogy but I'm sure the gist is clear.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭swampgas


    And do you approve of religion?

    Me personally? I think religious belief is unfounded, but for the most part I think everyone should have the freedom to follow any belief they like, as long as they don't force it onto anyone else.

    I strongly approve of separating church and state. The government should be neutral on religion, and not favour any one over another. Nor should religious minorities be forced to follow a majority religion.

    All of which is my personal view - other people who are atheists will have their own take on things.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Kev W wrote: »
    I neither approve nor disapprove. It's not a simple subject. It's like asking "do you approve of beer?" I don't care for it but if other people like it and they're not trying to force me into drinking it or passing it out in schools that's their business.

    That's an imperfect analogy but I'm sure the gist is clear.

    So am I correct in saying that the only aspect of religion that atheists have a problem with is that religion is a subject in most schools?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    ^ I would be very similar to Swampgas. On a state level, church and state should be completely separate. People are more than welcome to worship as they see fit, but where I do have a problem is when people try to make the doctrine of one religion the law of the land or when they use their religious beliefs to discriminate against particular groups (women, LGBT people, members of another religion etc). I would like to see when my kid goes to school that their classroom is shared with children who are from families of all faiths and none.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    So am I correct in saying that the only aspect of religion that atheists have a problem with is that religion is a subject in most schools?

    No. Because you're lumping all atheists together as a hive-mind again, which we are not.

    Also those problems that some atheists have with religion are more complex than that. Some won't care about teaching religion in schools, some will. Those that have no problem with religion being taught in schools may have a problem with how particular religions treat women and/or gay people and/or people of other faiths.

    Also I'm not certain that religion is a subject in most schools, I know that it's taught in Ireland but I'm actually not certain how many countries in the world have religion as a school subject.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,784 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Do you approve of religion?
    That depends. Do you approve of Santa Claus?

    I think I feel much the same about both. I'm not sure whether approval or disapproval come into it though.

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    It's part of the National Curriculum in the UK but there are a lot fewer faith schools. In the OFSTED Outstanding (community) primary school near me they would consider Christianity covered by year 3 and RE for the remaining 3 years of primary school teaches about Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism and Islam.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    So am I correct in saying that the only aspect of religion that atheists have a problem with is that religion is a subject in most schools?

    Sorry Kev, let me put it this way, ami I correct in saying that the only aspect of religion that YOU have a problem with is that religion is a subject in most IRISH schools?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,011 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    What dysfunctional families would that be?

    What neo-Marxist agenda? Every time I see Marxism or Marxist it tends to come from someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

    The neo-Marxist agenda of taking us away from the old "Catholic State of Ireland", of course. :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Sorry Kev, let me put it this way, ami I correct in saying that the only aspect of religion that YOU have a problem with is that religion is a subject in most IRISH schools?

    No.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Kev W wrote: »
    No.


    Oh right, so when you said that you' neither approve or disapprove of religion ' that wasn't really true.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Oh right, so when you said that you' neither approve or disapprove of religion ' that wasn't really true.

    Yes it was. See the beer analogy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Oh right, so when you said that you' neither approve or disapprove of religion ' that wasn't really true.

    You seem for some reason to me trying to discern how many issues I have with religion. Let's say for the sake of argument that it's seven. Now what?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Kev W wrote: »
    You seem for some reason to me trying to discern how many issues I have with religion. Let's say for the sake of argument that it's seven. Now what?


    Well IMO a genuine atheist-and you are either an atheist or you are not an atheist-would have nothing to do with religion and would not be seen within an asses roar of a church,synagogue, temple whatever. Some 'atheists' however seem to pick and choose which aspects of religion offend them. WHINEY TEXT DELETED HERE TO AVOID HAVING TO CARD INTENTIONALLY UNHELPFUL POSTER


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Well IMO a genuine atheist-and you are either an atheist or you are not an atheist-would have nothing to do with religion and would not be seen within an asses roar of a church,synagogue, temple whatever.

    That is, as you point out your opinion. I don't share it. Being that I am an Atheist and you are not, I may possibly have a better grasp on how an Atheist thinks. Also by that reasoning a Christian should not attend a Jewish funeral because they would not believe that it is the correct way to conduct a funeral.

    You can of course have your own opinion on how an Atheist should think or behave, but you can have no reasonable expectation that an Atheist should conform to that.
    Some 'atheists' however seem to pick and choose which aspects of religion offend them.

    Again, Atheism is the absence of belief in a God or Gods. Full stop. Being offended doesn't come into it. It's irrelevant.
    It's called hypocrisy but I am not allowed to say that.

    It's only hypocrisy if Atheism is defined as you've chosen to define it. It is not.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Well IMO a genuine atheist-and you are either an atheist or you are not an atheist-would have nothing to do with religion and would not be seen within an asses roar of a church,synagogue, temple whatever. Some 'atheists' however seem to pick and choose which aspects of religion offend them. It's called hypocrisy but I am not allowed to say that.

    The key bit there is the "IMO".

    What an atheist thinks of different religions will vary based on the atheist and the religion. I like Greek mythology, that was once religion. I loath scientology, that's a different religion. I am indifferent to zillions of other religions that I know nothing about.

    I dislike the influence Catholicism has over Irish law, education and medicine. However I do like visiting certain cathedrals and admiring the architecture. See the difference?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,784 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Well IMO a genuine atheist-and you are either an atheist or you are not an atheist-would have nothing to do with religion and would not be seen within an asses roar of a church,synagogue, temple whatever.
    Well that's just your own opinion, and as you're not an atheist, that's not terribly relevant, is it?

    Some 'atheists' however seem to pick and choose which aspects of religion offend them.
    When "believers" choose not to believe in, or not to obey, significant parts of their own religion, what's the difference?
    It's called hypocrisy but I am not allowed to say that.

    And yet you just did.

    Is it hypocrisy when so called "believers" are only pretending to believe, seeing as they don't actually follow those beliefs? And what if they are perfectly open about not believing (eg Catholics who claim not to believe in transubstantiation) is that hypocrisy or honesty? Should they stop going to church, to avoid you calling them hypocrites?

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Well IMO a genuine atheist-and you are either an atheist or you are not an atheist-would have nothing to do with religion and would not be seen within an asses roar of a church,synagogue, temple whatever. Some 'atheists' however seem to pick and choose which aspects of religion offend them. It's called hypocrisy but I am not allowed to say that.

    So, if you were invited to a wedding in a synagogue you wouldn't go?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    Well IMO a genuine atheist-and you are either an atheist or you are not an atheist-would have nothing to do with religion and would not be seen within an asses roar of a church,synagogue, temple whatever.

    You seem to be confusing atheist and anti-theist here. As swampgas has already pointed out, being an atheist simply means that you don't have any belief in a god or gods. It says nothing about your views on religion. Some atheists I've met think that religion is a good thing, mostly for the sense of community that it offers. Some that I've met think that all religions are bad and should be avoided/done away with etc.

    Personally, it depends on the religion in question. Some religions I have a profound aversion towards, like Christianity, mainly because of the negative impact it has had on society and also because it is being taught to children as if it were true when it's demonstrably not. Other religions like Buddhism or Jainism or Sikhism don't really bother me at all. However to ask me whether I approve or disapprove of religion in total is meaningless. There are so many different religions with widely varying characteristics that you can't lump them into a coherent group.

    Finally, you seem to have concluded that because someone is an atheist that they don't have friends or family. When an atheist goes to a funeral or a wedding it is to support a friend or family member on a happy or sad day. You're not going there to take part in the ceremony, just to be there for your friends. I've been at a wedding and a funeral recently and I don't feel any conflict with my beliefs. I don't pray or take part in any part of the mass so I'm not being hypocritical as you call it. What the other people choose to do or say or believe at the ceremony is, well, none of my business in the first place.

    Some 'atheists' however seem to pick and choose which aspects of religion offend them.

    Like I've said above, different religions have different impacts on society and so elicit different responses from people. What aspects of religion are you referring to specifically?

    It's called hypocrisy but I am not allowed to say that.

    No, it's not hypocrisy. I'm sure you could use the word hypocrisy if you backed up your argument with anything more than one sentence veiled insults.

    I also think you'll find that atheists would have a long way to go to beat most Christians in the hypocrisy stakes.

    Take the recent referendum on gay marriage, for example. There were quite a lot of Christians on Boards and in public who spoke quite vociferously about how the bible prohibited gay marriage. Some of them quoted Leviticus 18:22 in support of their argument, conveniently forgetting that Leviticus also bans shellfish, owning property, tattoos, astrologers, mixing crops, mixing fabrics etc. Other Christians who thought themselves more enlightened quoted Paul's letters in support of their argument while forgetting that Paul also taught that women should be silent, be educated at home, be obedient to their husbands and that slaves should be obedient to their masters.

    Or how about Catholics for example. According to the census 87% of the population lists itself as Catholic. Reports from inside and outside the church on the other hand put mass attendance figures at 30-40% despite one of the five precepts of the faith (the most important rules in the catholic handbook) requiring mass attendance every Sunday.

    You'd have to go a long way to find atheistic hypocrisy on a level approaching that of Christians.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,964 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    realdanbreen, you are trying to put atheism into the kind of straitjacket of rules that binds members of a religious grouping. You cannot do that as the only thing that links atheists is their lack of belief in, or acceptance of the existence of, a god or gods.

    There are no rules, no requirements, and if an atheist wishes to go into a place of worship, no one cares. A bit like a Pioneer can go into a pub, some people might consider it a bit pointless, the Pioneer might feel a bit out of place, but so long as he does not start preaching against drink, no one will care.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    looksee wrote: »
    realdanbreen, you are trying to put atheism into the kind of straitjacket
    More accurately, realdanbreen is strawmanning atheism to within one inch of trolling - any more and realdanbreen is likely to push himself over the edge.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,197 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    So am I correct in saying that the only aspect of religion that atheists have a problem with is that religion is a subject in most schools?

    The problem is not that religion is a subject; it's that religious indoctrination is a 'subject'. And it's not optional, for the most part.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭Bristolscale7


    Anti-clericalism is the term that realdanbreen seems to be missing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    looksee wrote: »
    A bit like a Pioneer can go into a pub, some people might consider it a bit pointless, the Pioneer might feel a bit out of place, but so long as he does not start preaching against drink, no one will care.


    That's my point!
    Many feel that atheists preaching against religion is pointless.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    kylith wrote: »
    So, if you were invited to a wedding in a synagogue you wouldn't go?

    I am genuinely curious as to what rationale you used to come to that conclusion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    That's my point!
    Many feel that atheists preaching against religion is pointless.

    That wasn't remotely your point and you know it. You're just jumping on an actual point because yours has no traction.

    And of course there's a point in atheists speaking against the elements of religion they have issues with.

    I assume that's what you mean by "atheists preaching against religion" since if we are to take that literally it's nothing to do with anything that's been discussed and absolutely cannot be the point you were making all along.

    Can a Christian speak out against issues they have with Islam?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    You'd have to go a long way to find atheistic hypocrisy on a level approaching that of Christians.

    Oh right, the old 'But what about............this that and the other arguement'.
    Fact is ye can't have it every way. Turning up for weddings and funerals in order to people please is really just a reflection of how fickle some peoples non beliefs are.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Oh right, the old 'But what about............this that and the other arguement'.
    Fact is ye can't have it every way. Turning up for weddings and funerals in order to people please is really just a reflection of how fickle some peoples non beliefs are.

    Or an indication that just because one is an atheist doesn't mean that they disdain everyone who isn't?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,964 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Oh right, the old 'But what about............this that and the other arguement'.
    Fact is ye can't have it every way. Turning up for weddings and funerals in order to people please is really just a reflection of how fickle some peoples non beliefs are.

    Fact is, ye can have it any way at all. I can go to a wedding because I want to, for whatever reason. It does not make any difference at all to my unbelief.

    As I said, you are confusing atheism with some sort of organisation. It isn't.

    I don't go to a wedding and 'believe' anything for the duration of the ceremony. I might enjoy the singing and the flowers and the company, that doesn't mean I am believing in anything.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Atheists don't believe in God and don't approve of religion.
    That's only about 75% wrong. Did you ever try asking an atheist what the word means since you quite obviously don't know?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Turning up for weddings and funerals in order to people please is really just a reflection of how fickle some peoples non beliefs are.
    I've been at loads of both and everybody knows full well I'm an atheist. In fact, at many of the functions probably the majority of the attendees were. And if asked we'd all have no shame at all in saying so, to the bride and groom or the family of the deceased.
    What makes you think they give a crap or would even ask?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    That's my point!
    Many feel that atheists preaching against religion is pointless.
    Which is why very few of them do.
    What they do "preach" is that religion should f**k off and mind its own business, particularly where it comes to the state and child safety.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Well IMO a genuine atheist-and you are either an atheist or you are not an atheist
    Does this apply to Catholics?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    Oh right, the old 'But what about............this that and the other arguement'.

    No, whataboutery is a technique aimed at distracting people away from the topic. What I did was point out that your argument about atheistic hypocrisy is doubly wrong. Not only is an atheist not hypocritical for attending a wedding or funeral but the idea that a christian would come here to berate atheists for being hypocritical is ironic to say the least.

    Fact is ye can't have it every way. Turning up for weddings and funerals in order to people please is really just a reflection of how fickle some peoples non beliefs are.

    Fickle how exactly?

    I was at a friend's wedding recently. He is an atheist and yet got married in a church (to please his now wife). He is, I will grant you, a hypocrite and I've said as much to him (light-heartedly at least). However, when I went to the wedding I didn't say any of the prayers, sing any of the hymns, take part in any part of the ceremony, didn't take communion and didn't kneel down. So in what way was I compromising my beliefs? I still don't believe in God and didn't engage in anything which said otherwise. The people at the wedding who know me knew I was an atheist and those who didn't probably didn't give a crap one way or the other. So how am I a hypocrite?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,784 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    I am genuinely curious as to what rationale you used to come to that conclusion.

    Since you're finding it hard to work out the question you're being asked there, how about replying to this one :

    If someone attends a religious ceremony when they are not a member of that religion, is it always hypocritical of them?

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,679 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    A certain somebody has an axe to grind, but can't for the life them find a grinding wheel


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Well IMO a genuine atheist-and you are either an atheist or you are not an atheist

    A non atheist is called a theist.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    That's only about 75% wrong. Did you ever try asking an atheist what the word means since you quite obviously don't know?

    No I can't say that I have. Maybe the fact that I only ever met two genuine atheists in my life might explain that. Neither of those two would ever go near a church or church service. If attending a wedding they would wait outside in the car until the ceremony was over. They were two dead sound guys and utterly dependable. The other so called atheists that I come accross would be more of the 'could'nt be arsed brigade'. These guys would in general be unreliable and lack any real motivation or drive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    No I can't say that I have. Maybe the fact that I only ever met two genuine atheists in my life might explain that. Neither of those two would ever go near a church or church service. If attending a wedding they would wait outside in the car until the ceremony was over. They were two dead sound guys and utterly dependable. The other so called atheists that I come accross would be more of the 'could'nt be arsed brigade'. These guys would in general be unreliable and lack any real motivation or drive.

    Again, that's YOUR definition of an Atheist, not THE definition of an atheist.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Kev W wrote: »
    Again, that's YOUR definition of an Atheist, not THE definition of an atheist.

    Correct.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Correct.

    You realise that you have made your own definition for a word which is different from the commonly used definition and then you complain about how people use the word to describe themselves using the word's commonly used definition because they arent matching up to your made up definition which only exists in your head.

    Right...

    Or does correct mean something else to you? I'm not sure how much of the English language you have changed.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    No I can't say that I have. Maybe the fact that I only ever met two genuine atheists in my life might explain that. Neither of those two would ever go near a church or church service. If attending a wedding they would wait outside in the car until the ceremony was over. They were two dead sound guys and utterly dependable. The other so called atheists that I come accross would be more of the 'could'nt be arsed brigade'. These guys would in general be unreliable and lack any real motivation or drive.
    These other guys are "unreliable" at what? Going to church? Not going to church?
    So what are they then if they:
    A: Don't believe there is a god
    but
    B: Don't denounce those who believe there is a god.
    You'll invent a new word for us here perhaps, with your own personal meaning?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    What makes you think I hate atheists? I just find it strange that so many of them don't stick to their principles.If I was an atheist I would like to think I was man enough to never have my kids baptised,

    Check
    never have them get first communion or confirmation,

    Check
    never get married in a church,

    Check
    never attend a funeral service,

    Why wouldn't I show my respects to the friends and family of the deceased? It's about them and not me. I'm perfectly capable of behaving with consideration and respect towards other people you know.
    basicly stick to my principles that's all.

    We often hear about "Christian principles", judge not lest ye be judged was one of them wasn't it?

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Kev W wrote: »
    I neither approve nor disapprove. It's not a simple subject. It's like asking "do you approve of beer?" I don't care for it but if other people like it and they're not trying to force me into drinking it or passing it out in schools that's their business.

    That's an imperfect analogy but I'm sure the gist is clear.

    Look, we can forgive the pineapple heresy (whenever we decide which is definitively the heretical position) but BEER? There are people in the world who don't like beer? I think I need a lie down.









    ...and a beer

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    I don't like beer.








    Does that mean I'm a hypocrite?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,953 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    lazygal wrote: »
    I don't like beer.

    Does that mean I'm a hypocrite?

    Not unless you've professed otherwise.

    Apostate though, yeah.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭Bristolscale7


    I hate shiftless atheists as much as therealdanguy does.


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